Celtics vs. Bucks, Round 2 Discussion
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So is the consensus that the Celtics made their run after going small in the 4th? The third quarter felt like it was almost game over, with Giannis getting anything he wanted. I couldn't identify any major change in strategy watching the game but it seems like people here think it was playing White over Grant, right? Hitting their shots in the 4th probably helped keep the Bucks out of transition too
Maybe, but that play was bad. He hit his off arm while he was in the air. A player does expect contact from that angle, and it is pretty risky. The player is bracing for contact in one direction and is pushed the opposite way. It is the type of foul nonbasketball players commit in PE class that gets your star player injured because the stupid PE teacher insisted he participate in class the day of the city final. JB seemed to say, "Watch that s--t". He was pretty upset abut that dangerous play. In FIBA that would be an intentional foul since Giannis did not play the ball and just hit him to prevent the dunk.
What an incredible game. I'm still a little amazed they were able to pull it out, because it didn't look good at all there.
A few things I noticed while watching, it's really interesting/different to see the Celtics playing AGAINST a really good defensive team. I just don't recall seeing that much this season, and certainly it's a stark contrast to the Nets series. Just interesting how hard they have to work, which is obviously what they do to every other team - but it's just a different being on the receiving end of it.
Maybe there was some reason they decided to play the scheme that way, but I was pretty frustrated when they seemed to keep ending up with Brown guarding Giannis - especially with Brown in foul trouble. It wasn't all terrible, I think Brown had a good defensive stand or two - but there were others where he was just really overmatched.
Early in the game I still felt like Tatum (and others on the team) were settling too much for outside shots. Thankfully Horford has morphed into Steph Curry, but I still don't want that to be such a huge part of their offense. But, maybe if that forces Lopez out of the paint (man he's a good shot blocker) - it makes sense? I didn't like seeing Theis put up his 3PA.
A few things I noticed while watching, it's really interesting/different to see the Celtics playing AGAINST a really good defensive team. I just don't recall seeing that much this season, and certainly it's a stark contrast to the Nets series. Just interesting how hard they have to work, which is obviously what they do to every other team - but it's just a different being on the receiving end of it.
Maybe there was some reason they decided to play the scheme that way, but I was pretty frustrated when they seemed to keep ending up with Brown guarding Giannis - especially with Brown in foul trouble. It wasn't all terrible, I think Brown had a good defensive stand or two - but there were others where he was just really overmatched.
Early in the game I still felt like Tatum (and others on the team) were settling too much for outside shots. Thankfully Horford has morphed into Steph Curry, but I still don't want that to be such a huge part of their offense. But, maybe if that forces Lopez out of the paint (man he's a good shot blocker) - it makes sense? I didn't like seeing Theis put up his 3PA.
Oh I agree. just watching it live it felt more like pent up aggression than just that play. Appreciate the FIBA context as well
I want to see the presser.
Reporter: “Jayson, were you surprised by the Bucks secret defensive weapon?”
Tatum: (head down and shaking in defeat) “Man, he was tough. We had no tape on him so weren’t prepared for his volume of posts at the most opportune times.”
Pushing someone down low driving to the basket like that with no play on the ball would seem to me to be unnecessary contact. It SHOULD be a flagrant, moreso than others that are called, for example the one Al got last night where his arm came down in a natural motion and hit someone.
Well, the Cs were small when they went on their run. Not sure about causality but Bud mentioned it in his post-game presser so it clearly something that he was reacting to. Lopez play 7 minutes and Portis played 0 in the 4Q so I think Coach Bud is concerned about the matchups. Having GA at the 5 opened up the lane for Smart (two post-ups) and JT (several drives).
Ime also said that they discovered some actions that were good for JT. Getting him switch onto George Hill is a great matchup for JT.
It will be interesting to see what Coach Bud does. The offense for MIL wasn't a problem in the 4Q - they scored 28 points on 47.8% / 50% / 75% shooting. The biggest issue to me is that MIL does not have the quickness to get spread out and recover so it appears that there are some pretty big lanes for the Cs to take advantage of.
I've not watched the first half of last night's game yet but JT has been out of rhythm a lot, which generally results in misses. Matthews has played an important role of keeping JT out of rhythm. I think going small really helped JT see some openings and regain his rhythm.
In 2012 I was awaiting a Miami Heat game. I was transfixed watching 60 year old coach Bob McAdoo drain 10 3pters in a row. My son asked me 'Dad could you guard him?" I said I couldn't . "No dad I mean if you were young and at your best and he was still 60 years old." I told I knew what he meant, and my answer was still that I could not stop him.
It wasn't dangerous though. I mean nobody got hurt and it barely affected Brown's movements at all. He should have made the damn dunk actually. https://www.nba.com/stats/events/?CFID=&CFPARAMS=&GameEventID=665&GameID=0042100214&Season=2021-22&flag=1&title=G. Antetokounmpo S.FOUL (P5.T4) (T.Brothers)&sct=plot
At the 4 minute mark of the third, Theis came in for Horford. Grant, Tatum, White, and Smart also in. Celtics down 6.
Within 15 seconds, Celtics were down 8 and Ime brought Horford back, this time for Grant. Brown also came in for Smart.
At 2:30, Theis picks up an offensive foul and Smart comes in for Theis. The score is 78-68 and this is the first time the Celtics have gone small: Horford, Tatum, Brown, hite, Smart.
At 1:47, on Bud's challenge, Brown picks up foul #5. Ime brings Pritchard in for Brown. Now really small. Score 78-70. That lineup plays the first 6 minutes of the 4th quarter.
At 6:02, Brown comes in for Pritchard, score is 94-92 Bucks.
At 3:24, Grant comes in for Brown, with Celtics up by 10, 106-96. Grant has 4 fouls, Brown 5, so I think Ime is doing this to protect Brown and focus on defense. Remember, Brown is terrible guarding Giannis.
Bucks hit a three, and at 3:05, 19 seconds later, Ime calls time and puts Brown back in, for Grant. It was a "use or lose" time out for Ime. At this point I am thinking that Ime is going to try to go offense/defense with Brown and Grant. But the Celtics do not make another substitution until the 43 second mark, when Bud inserts his scrubs and Ime sends Theis in for Horford.
So Ime was small, sometimes very small, for the whole 4th quarter apart from a 19 second look at Grant.
Brown picked up #5 (after Bud's successful challenge) with 1:47 to go in the third and Ime subbed Pritchard in for him. At that point it was Pritchard, Smart, White, Tatum, and Al.
Just because nobody gets hurt doesn't mean it's not dangerous. I think those kind of undercuts are about as dangerous as it gets in the NBA in terms of threat of long term injuries. Well, those and intentionally invading landing spots (which I also think should be flagrants). You don't need to be moved off your spot much going that rate of speed. The players know that, which is why they just let players go when they're beaten. Once they're in the air, if you are not in front of the player or at an angle to contest the actual shot/dunk, you gotta let them go. Or at least challenge up high. You can't do what Giannis did, he definitely made a choice in that moment to chicken wing his arm and push him off his spot with his forearm at hip level. He could have just gone past him.
The Athletic's Jay King, who used to cohost Locked On C's with John Karalis (and I think played a little bit in a small college program), told his story of playing 1-on-1 against Scal on one media day. At some point King got some delusions of grandeur and tried to really to take it to Scal, at which point Scal, professional bench warmer that he was, just wiped the floor with him without breaking a sweat.
He didn't undercut him. Maybe I am missing something obvious here, but I watch that video I posted and there is barely any contact.
Fuck Hill. That's from the Lowry School of BS. But not Smart University. Definitely not.
Celtics in the playoffs:
3+ days rest: 1-2 (The one win at buzzer Game 1, Brooklyn)
1-2 days rest: 5-0
Anything to that? (SSS caveats) Next 3 scheduled with 1 day off between games.
3+ days rest: 1-2 (The one win at buzzer Game 1, Brooklyn)
1-2 days rest: 5-0
Anything to that? (SSS caveats) Next 3 scheduled with 1 day off between games.
Barely any contact.
When you're in the air, and someone "barely contacts" you in that manner, you end up off balance and landing like a foot away and on a different angle than you expected to. It's basically the same way that Hayward shattered his ankle.
I don't give a shit whether that got called a flagrant or not. If someone did that to me on a court, I would have reacted exactly like Jaylen did. And if I did it to someone else (and I have), I would have immediately apologized. And not in a fucking patronizing way like Giannis did. Legit ownership of the reckless act.
I think Tatum figured the defense out late in the second quarter, from that point it was just about making the shots. Felt like almost every shot from that point was easier for him, and it led to a ton of open looks for others. 30/13/5, and he missed quite a few shots he normally hits.
I would bet that he has a special game tomorrow.
I would bet that he has a special game tomorrow.
He was ice cold from midway through the third to the end of that quarter, though. Missed 6 straight before he started hitting again in the 4th.
It wasn’t a flagrant but it was late and could have been dangerous. GA needs to cut that stuff out (like the JT play in game 3) or he will eventually takes someone’s legs out and get them hurt. For all his greatness he still seems a little immature on the court sometimes.
Yeah I’m talking more about how he looked, not so much the results. He started out the 3rd quarter 3-3, then missed next the next 6, before going 5-6 in the 4th.
But even when he was missing those shots, he looked infinitely more decisive than he did in game 3, or the first half last night. He figured out how and where to attack the defense.
I have a suggestion for you. Take a piece of string and something heavy and tie that object to the string. Create a pendulum giving that heavy object a nice swing. Near the bottom of the pendulum arc try touch the pendulum object (from perpendicular to its path of motion) with another object of equal weight. Watch what it does to the travel path of the pendulum object. Try to do it as lightly as you can. Now imagine that you are a basketball player fighting gravity (the inverse of your arc), you are at the apex of your arc and someone doesn't meet you from the front - they meet you from the side. Is there no wonder it was a dangerous play?
Oh, and then "he should have made the basket as well"? Watch the play again, see where the point of contact was, and then estimate how much time Brown had to readjust while ALSO thinking about safely landing after his balance and flight path have been changed. Because at that speed, and at that height, a crash is unlikely to lead to a pop back up and resume play for Brown.
Honestly, flagrant call aside - I don't know how anyone can say that wasn't a dangerous play.
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Barely any contact is entirely too much contact on that play. That's really the point. Giannis made absolutely no attempt at the ball. Just because he failed to injure Jaylen doesn't really change the calculus. He had no ability to do anything other than commit a reckless foul, which he did, even if Jaylen was able to keep his balance and land (albeit awkwardly). Maybe Giannis only got him with 5% of his force, but 6% and we might not see Jaylen again the playoffs. That's what makes it dangerous.
Very hard to see in full speed there too, but in addition to the arm pushing Jaylen, Giannis leg makes contact with Jaylen's legs. That shit just can't happen in that moment, and that's the stuff the league has tried to legislate out. I also don't think it was a flagrant, but it was about a millisecond from being a flagrant 2.
I was stunned it wasn't a flagrant because that could be a season ending play - and it's the second time Giannis has done that on a fast break in this series. Remember Paul George annihilating his knee on the stanchion in the olympics? That kind of foul is inviting that injury - it's just totally reckless, and IMO worse than an elbow to the face.
Circling back on the shooting after two games in Milwaukee. As a reminder, regular season stats:
Celts Offense: .466 overall / .356 3pt / .547 2pt
Celts Defense: .434 overall / .349 3pt / .497 2pt
Milwaukee Offense: .468 overall / .366 3pt / .544 2pt
Milwaukee Defense: .456 overall / .356 3pt / .537 2pt (with the Lopez caveat)
Through 4 games:
Celts: .418 overall / .374 3pt / .449 2pt
Milwaukee: .421 overall / .292 3pt / .481 2pt
So Milwaukee's defense is actually forcing the Celts to shoot a lower % overall than in the regular season in comparison to the Celts defense vs. the Bucks offense (-4.8% vs -3.5%), but because the Celts are +1.8% on 3s and shooting a ton of volume (40.75 3PA/game vs. 37.1 in the regular season), they've been able to succeed.
Overall the Bucks have shot .411, .466, .404, and .415 in the series. Their best shooting night was actually the blowout loss.
Each game is its own sample, but you have to like the Celts chance with 2 of the final 3 at home, especially if they keep holding the Bucks to ~41%.
Celts Offense: .466 overall / .356 3pt / .547 2pt
Celts Defense: .434 overall / .349 3pt / .497 2pt
Milwaukee Offense: .468 overall / .366 3pt / .544 2pt
Milwaukee Defense: .456 overall / .356 3pt / .537 2pt (with the Lopez caveat)
Through 4 games:
Celts: .418 overall / .374 3pt / .449 2pt
Milwaukee: .421 overall / .292 3pt / .481 2pt
So Milwaukee's defense is actually forcing the Celts to shoot a lower % overall than in the regular season in comparison to the Celts defense vs. the Bucks offense (-4.8% vs -3.5%), but because the Celts are +1.8% on 3s and shooting a ton of volume (40.75 3PA/game vs. 37.1 in the regular season), they've been able to succeed.
Overall the Bucks have shot .411, .466, .404, and .415 in the series. Their best shooting night was actually the blowout loss.
Each game is its own sample, but you have to like the Celts chance with 2 of the final 3 at home, especially if they keep holding the Bucks to ~41%.
Completely agree on this. Don't forget JB is moving at an incredible speed and jumping almost as high as he can. In doing so, he needs a clear space to land and must decelerate instantly before tangling with the stanchion and/or spectators/seats. There's very little margin for error. A misstep here and he can tear a ligament, crash to the floor, etc. and potentially be lost for the season. Given those are the stakes, any body contact save for a play on the ball should be avoided completely. We know GA has inhuman strength. His "barely touch" is not your nor my "barely touch." Add in the speed and leap factors and it's just unnecessarily dangerous all around. As someone who has criticized this team in the past for not showing much appetite for pushing back outside of MS, I loved JB's reaction. It's justified and a very necessary corrective. If anything, it'll get the ref's notice that stuff might get out of hand if they don't tighten the reins on these shenanigans.
I honestly do not understand the Giannis defender here. Brown is ahead, going for a sure 2, and Giannis reaches out and fouls his back/torso for obviously a specific purpose: to disrupt his balance and try to make him miss the shot. Maybe Giannis is trying to do it just a little in order to try to get away with it, but it’s pretty obvious. The idea that Brown should have made the shot anyway is ludicrous: I don’t see Brown missing those except when he’s fouled.
So it’s the type of foul that is dangerous, it wasn’t at the ball. I don’t think it’s a flagrant but it was totally fair to call him out for what it was.
He’s had multiple dirty plays including the hit on Tatum and whacking people in the face with the ball. He’s an aggressive player for sure. The Celtics should absolutely be pointing out all his crap and giving it right back to him (eg Al) when they can.
So it’s the type of foul that is dangerous, it wasn’t at the ball. I don’t think it’s a flagrant but it was totally fair to call him out for what it was.
He’s had multiple dirty plays including the hit on Tatum and whacking people in the face with the ball. He’s an aggressive player for sure. The Celtics should absolutely be pointing out all his crap and giving it right back to him (eg Al) when they can.
The huge difference to me was especially Tatum making shots.. I remember him missing at least 5? In the third off the top of my head.. two layups, two threes and a fall away I think.. the C’s as a team barely missed in the 4th.
It can only be if that person has never played basketball and had anything like that happen to him at even half the height and half the speed that these guys are going at.
I played some pickup with some d1 college players at one point.. and the thing that was so impressive was that second gear they had and just the ability to do anything at all after minutes of running up and down the court at that speed. The NBA must be 10x that.. What’s especially impressive is body control and the amount of force on the plant leg when going in for a layup or dunk. It’s amazing that there aren’t more knee injuries in the nba from just that act alone… landing off balance? Even worse.
Deuce is a handful?
More seriously, maybe we can characterize the Cs as a "rhythm" team and the long layoffs break their rhythm. Of course it's a super SSS so maybe it's just coincidence.
Probably not. A bunch of close games that could have went either way. The one thing I have noticed is we don’t play well during the day or more specifically…..Tatum does not play well during the day. I always view day games as mostly crapshoots bc there is more variance in performance but it always seems we are on the wrong end. I haven’t back checked at all I’m only going on memory.
I have played plenty of hoops in my day, so no need for the condescension. We are allowed to disagree on things - it is what makes these sort of boards interesting. I am just not seeing this play as some crazy egregious act. The Brooks one, for sure. This one, not so much. The only place I hear anyone talking about this particular dirty Giannis play is in this place.
Ah there ya go. I forgot that but it represents a perfect example of the afternoon variance that I preach. Awful, Incredible, Awful, etc.
FYI, Game 7 will more than likely be a day game.
Not trying to be condescending.. but if you've played hoops you then know how much someone putting a hand on your hip can steer you and how much it can move you when you're up in the air. It's just really dangerous because your body is thrown off on how it's going to land..especially if you're running and collecting for a dunk. All you have to really review is Jalen's face after he lands.. he's pissed... and why would that be other than he felt like Giannis was trying to hurt him by pushing him? We can have disagreements and that's fine.. but physics is physics.
Did any of those open looks come from a defensive breakdown? They have mostly looked like schemed shots due to the drop coverage they play.
+1
Just one more reckless move by Giannis: ball face smash, elbows flying underneath the hoop, taking out Tatum on a breakaway, going fullback in the lane. If GA falls/slips/trips he's taking out a defender's knees. It's beyond bullyball, he doesn't give a F--- it's borderline thuggery. A lot of this would go away if this was called properly by the League...
Jaylen didn't like it and none of us should either
It isn’t like Giannis isn’t taking a beating himself. If Pritchard’s body check to his hip in the lane was a few inches lower his ACL is in danger. Point is…..this is a physical, a VERY physical playoff series. Shit is going to happen.
Agreed, he's taking it up a notch in the playoffs and the refs are letting more stuff go in the playoffs. That combination along with a 7 game series raises the odds for a season-ending injury to a Celtic.
Jaylen and Al got fed up with his schtick last night
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It’s a super small sample obviously, but it matches the eye test. The Tatum at the 4, Al at the 5 lineups have been really good in this series.
