Celtics vs. Heat, Round 3 Discussion

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BaseballJones

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Guys like Tucker are a real challenge to score on. He’s quick enough to stay with you (like Grant), strong as an ox, plays right up in your grill, and is willing to get dirty and play very physical, and if the refs let him be physical, he will just ratchet that up.

One antidote is to have Tatum go to the block. No he won’t be able to overpower Tucker, but he should be able to catch, turn, and shoot right over him. Between his height advantage and his longer reach, he can neutralize much of what Tucker does simply by going over the top. That’s much harder to do from 22 feet away. Much easier to do from 12 feet away.
 

Fishy1

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Guys like Tucker are a real challenge to score on. He’s quick enough to stay with you (like Grant), strong as an ox, plays right up in your grill, and is willing to get dirty and play very physical, and if the refs let him be physical, he will just ratchet that up.

One antidote is to have Tatum go to the block. No he won’t be able to overpower Tucker, but he should be able to catch, turn, and shoot right over him. Between his height advantage and his longer reach, he can neutralize much of what Tucker does simply by going over the top. That’s much harder to do from 22 feet away. Much easier to do from 12 feet away.
100%. I was mystified by people saying he's "washed up." He's one of the toughest guys in the NBA. There's a reason he's been starting on playoff teams for years now.

On the other hand, I'm not sure I want Tatum taking a bunch of fallaway jumpers. One alternative is to get into the offense more quickly by pushing: let Al bring the ball up off missed baskets, get Marcus to bring it up more quickly (assuming he's back. . A more steady diet of catch-and-shoot, pin-downs, etc. would help Tatum too. Get the ball to Tatum while he's moving so the defense doesn't get a chance to set.
 

BaseballJones

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Plus… Tatum doesn’t really move that well without the ball, if we’re going to be honest. He is younger and more athletic than Tucker. He should be able to rub off screens, cut, and generally move a lot more without the ball. See if Tucker can keep up.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Not sure Theis starting Is the crushing decision it’s made out to be. Grant still logged 39 mins and fouled out. Horford logged 41 mins. Theis logged 10 which is less than his 19 in game 1. Without TL those bigs minutes have to come from somewhere.
Losing TL is a problem but the C’s seemed tired and clueless out there. If we’re going to put something on Ime it’s how ill prepared they looked for a game 3. Overconfidence? Travel catching up to them? New parenthood?
Going from 9 in the previous game to 23 turnovers is obviously the story of the game.
I expect a much crisper game tonight after being at home for a few days.
Spotting the Heat a 1Q lead bc you feel that you must start 2BIGZ against a team that presents a matchup problem against 2BIGZ has been an underrated issue for Ime this series.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Spotting the Heat a 1Q lead bc you feel that you must start 2BIGZ against a team that presents a matchup problem against 2BIGZ has been an underrated issue for Ime this series.
My guess is that Ime was trying to steal some minutes with Theis because GW is averaging over 5 fouls a game. Not having TL really hurts BOS IMO.

Theis came out when it was 20-6. Not great obviously but the remainder of the 19-12 run in the 1Q was when he was sitting.
 

PedroKsBambino

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My guess is that Ime was trying to steal some minutes with Theis because GW is averaging over 5 fouls a game. Not having TL really hurts BOS IMO.

Theis came out when it was 20-6. Not great obviously but the remainder of the 19-12 run in the 1Q was when he was sitting.
Yeah, but that is why I was pretty critical in hindsight about starting Theis---the game was to a fair degree dictated by that 20-6 start. That doesn't excuse what happened after but it was very impactful. To be clear, I was fine starting Theis for reason you stated...but as it played out that was a big negative.

The other piece of the challenges passing is Miami has been very good at getting deflections off-dribble and also using size to deny penetration. Those things create more desire to pass, and they have killed the passes.

I mentioned in game thread Celts need to focus more on dribble penetration and I hope and expect that's one adjustment---Jaylen in particular doens't have the best handle, but I'd rather take my chances with Smart, White, Jays and even sometimes Horford trying dribble penetration and passing back out vs trying to pass into the paint or across. With a couple exceptions, in both games 1 and 3 where Celtics got in trouble was trying to pass from top of key to down low---not getting down low and passing back out, which is what they did so well vs Milwaukee. It's harder to get down low against Miami, of course, but they should keep dribble-driving as the focus.
 
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Ed Hillel

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My guess is that Ime was trying to steal some minutes with Theis because GW is averaging over 5 fouls a game. Not having TL really hurts BOS IMO.

Theis came out when it was 20-6. Not great obviously but the remainder of the 19-12 run in the 1Q was when he was sitting.
There's no reason to force this issue, the situation will dictate whether Grant needs to sit as it progresses. The way that game was officiated, Grant never would have needed to come out.
 

Ed Hillel

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Man, Golden State is really sitting pretty at this point. They'll likely have a healthy squad and a week or so to rest, while the Celtics and Heat beat up on already thinning rosters.
 

Tudor Fever

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Man, Golden State is really sitting pretty at this point. They'll likely have a healthy squad and a week or so to rest, while the Celtics and Heat beat up on already thinning rosters.
Good point, but the effect would be somewhat mitigated by the facts that (1) Game 1 of the finals takes place 4 days after the date of a Game 7 between the Celtics and Heat and (2) with one exception, the finals games are every third day.
 

Ed Hillel

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Good point, but the effect would be somewhat mitigated by the facts that (1) Game 1 of the finals takes place 4 days after the date of a Game 7 between the Celtics and Heat and (2) with one exception, the finals games are every third day.
I did not realize they spread the finals games out so far, that’s comforting actually. I thought it was every other day with the extra day for travel.
 

Eddie Jurak

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Kenny F'ing Powers

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Oladipo's defense was critical in game 3, but Herro is one of those guys you're always worried about him going off and scoring 25. Hard to know if this is a good thing or not.
It's a good thing.

The spacing he provides for guys like Butler to drive/kick and Bam to clog the paint isn't going to be replaced by Oladipo.
 

Euclis20

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Oladipo's defense was critical in game 3, but Herro is one of those guys you're always worried about him going off and scoring 25. Hard to know if this is a good thing or not.
It's definitely a good thing, even if Herro has been lousy so far. With Butler and Lowry hurt and some of their shooters unplayable because of their defense, the Heat could have a VERY hard time finding offense. Strus' 3 near the end of the game was a killer, but up to that point, Miami had just 6 points in the entire quarter with just over 2 minutes left.
 

NomarsFool

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Herro out is good, fewer options, and he has been the sort of player that has been able to make some very high degree of difficulty shots, even despite good defense by the Celtics.

That said, Oladipo was highly effective on Brown in game 3. That concerns me a bit.
 

benhogan

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If Boston limits the live ball TOs Miami will have trouble getting to 100 with no Herro

I'd expect smaller lineups with 2 of Smart/White/PP on the floor at the same time

we may see White start if TL can't go
 

Reverend

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I can’t wait for you guys to explain for me what the hell is happening.
 

Red Averages

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I can’t wait for you guys to explain for me what the hell is happening.
Easy. One team has a glass jaw and they cannot create their own offense, while the superior team, who constantly responds (with authority!) exerts their will.

but who knows. Jimmy Butler apparently wants it more than the Celtics so perhaps he’ll single handidly bring them back in this game.
 

Red Averages

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Celtics are favored on the road by 1 point in game 5. Not surprising, but interesting to see the tide shift a bit.

As always in this series the injury situation will be interesting for both sides.
 

Ed Hillel

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All I really care about at this point is Timelord’s knee. I can’t imagine he’ll be playing Wednesday, they need to grit it out without him and probably then try to win Game 6 without him, as well. If he’s getting a week off and then 2 days between games, maybe he can make it through a series.
 

Ed Hillel

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Ooook. A precautionary jog up and down the court for 2 minutes. I want to believe, and Ime is usually as blunt as they come, so…<shoulder shrug emoji>.

Maybe he got a bit spooked and didn’t want to test it?
 

Mystic Merlin

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Ooook. A precautionary jog up and down the court for 2 minutes. I want to believe, and Ime is usually as blunt as they come, so…<shoulder shrug emoji>.

Maybe he got a bit spooked and didn’t want to test it?
He looked tired to me.

Is he doing a presser to buttress the ruse? Does it really matter?
 

Light-Tower-Power

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It’s a cliche, but it seems obvious to me that Miami has no shot at beating the Celtics in this series, only the Celtics can beat themselves. They couldn’t throw it into the ocean tonight and it was still a blowout (/ducks). Key is clearly limiting turnovers. Like, if they just do that they cruise into the Finals. Miami cannot score in the half court. Of course we all thought it would be smooth sailing after G2 so who the hell knows what happens on Wednesday, but I think it’s obvious which team is better.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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I can’t wait for you guys to explain for me what the hell is happening.
MIA withoit Herro amd with what looks to be a hobbled Butler and Lowry don't have anyone who can create their own shot. So long as BOS doesn't have many live ball TOs that lead to run outs, MIA has a super hard time scoring which is why MIA had spmething like 69 points in 3.5 Qs of play/

MIA has scored 411 total points so far 8n this series. They have 68 points (17%) off TOs. Tonight they had 7.
 

chilidawg

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The only consistent thing about this series has been that the Heat can't score in the half court. C's have been pretty inconsistent there too, but they have had more success. The way every game has been totally different from the last leaves me thinking I have no idea what the next game will bring.
 

Eddie Jurak

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After yesterday's game, the 90s called and they want their ugly basketball back. (Not that what we saw yesterday was 90s basketball, but like the 90s it was ugly basketball).

With the Celtics having tied the series up at 2-2, each team having one once on the road, we are down to a 3 game series with Miami's advantage.

538 sees the Celtics as 64% likely to take the series and 54% likely to win the finals - in essence they are giving the Celtics a better than 80% chance of winning the finals... if they get there. I think that's wrong. This Miami series has become such a battle of attrition that whichever team emerges is going to walk right into a rested Warriors team that has been there before and is more ready to play.

Yesterday's game was bizarre i ways too numerous to count.
  • The Celtics jumped out to an 18-1 lead and ultimately won by 20. Not sure that Miami ever got closer than 16 after that.
  • The "winning quarters" stuff is BS, but Miami won its third quarter of the series - the garbage 4th, 30-26.
  • A combination of stifling Celtics defense and Miami missing Herro/subpar Butler meant that the Celtics held the Heat to 52 points over 3 quarters. I think there are milk cartons with photos of Bam Adebayo (9 points, 6 rounds, only 5 shots from the field).
  • Both teams shot terribly from the field, Miami 33.3%, Celtics 39.7%.
  • Miami shot well from three (38.9%) while the Celtics shot terribly (23.5%) although much of Miami's good 3 shooting came in the garbage 4th.
  • Tatum specifically and the Celtics more broadly got the whistles, with the Celtics shooting 32-38 from the line compared to Miami's 8-14. Tatum alone was 14-16.
  • The Celtics crushed Miami on the glass, 60-39, usually one of Miami's keys to winning. The Celtics had 14 offensive boards to Miami's 29 defenive boards, while Miami had 10 offenive to Boston's 46 defensive.
  • Miami had more points off turnovers (13 to 7) and fast break points (12 to 9) but those were small differences.
  • The Celtics cut their turnover number in half, to 11, and only 4 in the first half.
In terms of player performances, this was also a weird one.

It was really the play of White, Rob, and Horford that keyed the Celtics fast start. White scored the first 7 Celtic points (putting the Cs up 7-0) supported by Rob and Al rebounding and defending. Brown started 0-5 and picked up 2 quick fouls in the first 5 minutes, while Tatum picked up a dumb foul and looked tentative in the offensive end.

But Tatum came around, putting up 12 points in the first quarter, largely due to getting to the line. Tatum finished the game with a weird but impressive performance, scoring 31 points on 8 of 16 from the field, 1 of 7 from three, and 14 of 16 from the line. He added 8 rebounds, 5 assists, and 2 blocks, with a manageable 3 turnovers.

Brown never really got it going, shooting 5 of 20 and 1 of 6 from three.

After WHite hit his first 3 shots, he hit only 1 of his next 11, and he shot 1 of 7 from three for the game. He did have 8 rebounds, 6 assists, 3 steals, and a block against 3 turnovers.

Al had as monster a game as a player can have while taking only 2 shots from the field: 5 points, 13 rebounds, 3 assists, 4 blocks, no turnovers.

Rob played only 19 miutes but had 12 points, 9 rebounds, 2 blocks.

Pritchard is the only Celtic who shot well from 3 (3-6), the rest of the team shot 5 of 28. He scored 14 points and added 3 assists, a block, and a steal in 25 minutes.

My big concern going forward is injuries/attrition, which is taking its toll on both teams.

Celtic injury issues:
  • Marcus Smart: sprained ankle in game 3, missed game 4.
  • Rob Williams: played well in limited minutes yesterday, but was both noticeable limping, especially in the third quarter, and not having his usualy hops. He finished 3 lobs, but only one of them with a dunk.
  • Jayson Tatum: He shot 1-7 from three in this one while having an otherwise strong game. A few of his misses were front rimmed. I think the shoulder may be an issue.
  • Derrick White: Played 40 minutes yesterday, and grabbed at his hamstring at the very end before he came out. Ime left him out there for too long.
  • Jaylen Brown: We haven't heard much about his hamstring, recently, but I mention it because he had some issues with it earlier in the playoffs.
Miami injury issues:
  • Herro: missed game 4
  • Butler: missed the second half of game 4 and did not looked like himself in game 3 or game 4
  • Lowry: his return helped the Heat a lot in game 3, but he hasn't exactly looked like his old Celtic killer self.
My gut feeling is that if the Celtics' health can hold up, this is their series to lose, but whether the Celtics' health does hold up is an open question. The way Rob looked - despite his string play - is really worrisome.
 

Van Everyman

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I don’t agree Rob didn’t have his hops before that last stretch where he seemed to be limping. He was terrific while he was in there, especially on the defensive end. Hoping he’s available for Game 5. He’s clearly the difference maker for this defense, despite Deputy Marcus.
 

Philip Jeff Frye

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I don’t agree Rob didn’t have his hops before that last stretch where he seemed to be limping. He was terrific while he was in there, especially on the defensive end. Hoping he’s available for Game 5. He’s clearly the difference maker for this defense, despite Deputy Marcus.
So does that make Williams the sheriff?
 

tims4wins

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What has me encouraged is that the Celts were able to blow out the Heat despite shooting terribly. I believe all of their previous blowouts this postseason have been when they shot the lights out. They showed last night that they can blow out a team in a grind it out type of game too. They don't need to shoot 45-50% from 3 to do it.

Zero idea how the rest of this series goes, but if the Celts can play D remotely as good as last night, it's their series to lose.
 

BaseballJones

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What has me encouraged is that the Celts were able to blow out the Heat despite shooting terribly. I believe all of their previous blowouts this postseason have been when they shot the lights out. They showed last night that they can blow out a team in a grind it out type of game too. They don't need to shoot 45-50% from 3 to do it.

Zero idea how the rest of this series goes, but if the Celts can play D remotely as good as last night, it's their series to lose.
Well, the D and not turning the ball over like crazy. Minimize the turnovers, play good D, and the Celtics should be in good shape, unless Miami just goes nuts from three.
 

Strike4

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What has me encouraged is that the Celts were able to blow out the Heat despite shooting terribly. I believe all of their previous blowouts this postseason have been when they shot the lights out. They showed last night that they can blow out a team in a grind it out type of game too. They don't need to shoot 45-50% from 3 to do it.

Zero idea how the rest of this series goes, but if the Celts can play D remotely as good as last night, it's their series to lose.
But we should also be honest in acknowledging that Miami without Herro and with a limited Butler and Lowry is terrible on offense. I do think the Celtics are a better team and if you did a Punnett square with offense and defense then they would win every square head on (i.e. if Miami offense is plus and Celtics offense if plus, Celtics win). But if you have Herro in there last night I think this is a much closer game given that the Celtics offense struggled. it's one thing to keep running your offense when you're up 20 and there's no urgency that the game is getting away from you.

But as you said, no idea how things look going forward. Celtics might have learned their lesson from Game 3, but Miami might throw everything at them tomorrow.
 

tims4wins

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But we should also be honest in acknowledging that Miami without Herro and with a limited Butler and Lowry is terrible on offense. I do think the Celtics are a better team and if you did a Punnett square with offense and defense then they would win every square head on (i.e. if Miami offense is plus and Celtics offense if plus, Celtics win). But if you have Herro in there last night I think this is a much closer game given that the Celtics offense struggled. it's one thing to keep running your offense when you're up 20 and there's no urgency that the game is getting away from you.

But as you said, no idea how things look going forward. Celtics might have learned their lesson from Game 3, but Miami might throw everything at them tomorrow.
Yeah this is all completely fair. Trying to see the bright side in things, but who knows.
 

jezza1918

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But we should also be honest in acknowledging that Miami without Herro and with a limited Butler and Lowry is terrible on offense. I do think the Celtics are a better team and if you did a Punnett square with offense and defense then they would win every square head on (i.e. if Miami offense is plus and Celtics offense if plus, Celtics win). But if you have Herro in there last night I think this is a much closer game given that the Celtics offense struggled. it's one thing to keep running your offense when you're up 20 and there's no urgency that the game is getting away from you.

But as you said, no idea how things look going forward. Celtics might have learned their lesson from Game 3, but Miami might throw everything at them tomorrow.
You may be right on the bolded...but on the flipside Oladipo provided an offensive spark off the bench that Herro usually does by scoring 12 in the 2Q, and to my naked eye the Celts can't hunt Oladipo on the other end like the are able to do with Herro.
 

bigq

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Somehow the Heat starters only had 18 points in the game. I’ve never seen that level of scoring futility from a starting five and it’s highly unlikely to ever be repeated.
 

Strike4

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You may be right on the bolded...but on the flipside Oladipo provided an offensive spark off the bench that Herro usually does by scoring 12 in the 2Q, and to my naked eye the Celts can't hunt Oladipo on the other end like the are able to do with Herro.
Yeah but last night the Celtics weren't hunting shit. They were slogging.
 

Strike4

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The Cs are better. They might even be a good bit better. But they are also stupider and sloppier.
This is the take. And I think Game 3 really drove the point home for them and if this team has the strength we think it does, they will win a tough Game 5 in Miami against a well-coached team that is going to give it their all.