I saw the interview that was quoted, Rob Williams made clear he has been told he's not risking further injury, it's a pain management issue. Now, of course any pain management issue really DOES increase injury risk, but usually it's to other parts of the body because of compensating, etc., but it does sound like there's no increased risk to long term injury to the knee.
Celtics vs. Warriors, NBA Finals
- Thread starter Devizier
- Start date
Klay may have had a point about age appropriateness of the Garden last night.
I mean, the rims being two inches higher than normal? Way to let the kids have a fair chance.
I mean, the rims being two inches higher than normal? Way to let the kids have a fair chance.
I’d be surprised if he wasn’t. Big part of their dynasty.
Just to add some context: 2x All-NBA, 4x All-Star, 7x All-Defense, one-time DPOY, and 3 rings.
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I think he'll probably end up getting in, but I don't think it's a no brainer for someone with a career PPG under 9. His defense is certainly HOF worthy, and that will probably get him there. But I disagree that it's very, very easy to get into the Basketball Hall of Fame, including for him.
The three modern-day players in the HOF with a scoring average under 10 are Rodman, Mutumbo and Ben Wallace
Green isn't on their level, though. The rings might help, but I wouldn't vote for him.
All Defensive first or second team
Rodman 8
Green 7
Wallace 6
Mutombo 6
He kind of is on their level
Bref's HOF probability rating has him at 59.7%, which seems a bit low to me. Among active players, that puts him just ahead of Griffin, Klay and Aldridge and just behind Rondo, Butler and Love. He's a unique player, it's really hard to compare him to others. How many DPOY caliber big men averaged 7+ assists per game over a 7 year stretch?
He's an interesting comp with that group, in that he's also an incredible defending big man who can't score at all. On the other hand, those guys were all 99th percentile rebounders (Mutombo and Wallace led the league in rebounding twice, Rodman led the league seven times) who couldn't pass for shit (Rodman averaged 1.8 assists, Wallace 1.3, Mutombo 1.0 compared with Draymond at 5.4). I'm wracking my brain trying to think of big men who could provide both above average defense and average 7+ assists in their prime, and it's a really really small group.
He’s not the only one doing it this time of year. Curry is going to be doing the same with his recurring foot injury tomorrow night. Fortunately for him he signed his deal even if it wasn’t a massage so if it’s his last he won’t be waiting tables at Ninety Nine.
7? Wow. OK, he has a decent shot to get in. Seeing him plod around in this series and playing dirty to cover for his dwindling skills probably caused some recency bias.
I don't disagree with you at all. I was dead set against him until I dug a little. He used to be really good, not so much now.
I’ll eat a log of Rocco’s shit if Draymond doesn’t get in. Haven’t said that in two years but felt this was an appropriate time to bring it out.
4x All-Star, 3 rings, 9x All-Defensive, one of the best passing 4’s game has even seen, the spirit animal of a dynasty……..
I know he’s hated around here but lets not be silly.
Sarcastic much? It's been about 3 weeks since you last said that (and you were right) however your point about Draymond getting in to the Basketball Hall stands. So far he looks like a broken down version of himself - a step too slow and hellbent on trying to hurt his opponents but he may show up in this series yet.
I'm not trying to pick on you. I genuinely think this is funny because I associate this "log of Rocco's shit" reference specifically with you and I remembered seeing something very recently, so this didn't sound right to me. You said this 2 months ago wrt Ben Simmons. And 13 months ago and 14 months ago. Again, no agenda. I think it's funny because this happens to me a lot too. I'll be telling someone a story and in the middle of it realize that I already told the same story to the same person.
I'd be much more concerned about someone playing through significant knee pain coming off a recent meniscus tear and surgery than I would be just about any other "soreness".
Obviously we don't know the details of Rob's current knee issues, but I wouldn't automatically give it the same risk as others that are playing through random bumps and bruises. It has the potential to cause some issues down the line, though obviously I hope not.
See…..now this is the funny shit I love about this board!!! After I posted I said to myself that I think I used it a year ago but completely forgot about Simmons.
I don’t associate Curry’s foot injury that caused him to miss the last month of the regular season as a random bump or bruise though. It appears that it’s the same foot that was injured after Horford landed on him on the ground.
Yeah, closest comparison I can think of is Ben Wallace, a boderline guy with the reputation as the best defender of his era who also happened to play forever.
Green might make it but it’s not a lock.
Wes Unseld is an interesting comp. Barely over 10ppg at 10.8 for his career. Well short of the 7+ assists plateau, but averaged 3.9 over his career, and as high as 5.2 for a season, in a place and time where assists weren't awarded so freely. More in the mold of elite rebounder / non-playmaker like Mutumbo, Wallace and Rodman, and obviously a different kind of temperament than Green... but seems in the same ballpark as a big man who prioritized D and passing over his own scoring.
Edit: I'd forgotten that Unseld is one of two players to win the MVP as a rookie. What a bizarre vote in 68-69: Unseld finished way ahead of Willis Reed, who had a similar but vastly better season, and— of all people— Billy Cunningham. Then, 4th place is Bill Russell, who didn't appear in either 1st or 2nd all-NBA teams— another case of Russell's MVP status outweighing his All-star or All-NBA reputation.
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That Dray assist number is mind boggling. I would imagine that a good chunk of those assists are really easy passes to Steph and Klay for 3s, but still. All D for 7 years plus that kind of “playmaking”.
Is it mind boggling? He's been an elite passer for awhile, and his passing unlocks a lot of what Steph and Klay do offball.
I think it kind of is. I mean Tatum has the ball a ton and has been great facilitating these playoffs right? He's averaging 6.2 assists per game. Dray has averaged 7+ in 5 seasons, plus another at 6.9 and another at 6.2. It's a pretty high number for a forward, especially one that is more of a defensive player. Scottie Pippen only did it once in his career.
A dynasty where you completely dominate the league for 11 years is different that a "dynasty" where you win 3 titles over a decade.
It doesn't seem likely at all to me that Green makes the HOF. Rodman and Wallace not only won titles, but absolutely dominated statistically (just not in scoring). They both had multiple years where they were all-NBA defenders and put up insane, league-leading rebounding numbers.
Meanwhile, if Draymond played in Charlotte, no one would even know who he was.
Ah ok, I thought you meant that Draymond in particular was doing it. Yeah, he's at another level as a passer.
You aren’t going to get cartilage problems/early arthritis down the line from playing on a bone bruise in your foot.
I just listened to a short Zach Lowe pod.
One thing he noted: in the regular season, Steph averaged ~5 catch and shoot three attempts per game versus ~6.5 pull up three attempts.
Thus far through 3 games, he has a total of 7 catch and shoot attempts and 30 pull up attempts. He's getting his threes, but, at least since Q1 game 1, the Celtics are making him work for them.
His big picture view of the Celtics' defense is that they have essentially taken all of the Warriors fancy passing attack away, leaving Golden State left with basically transition offense and Steph pick and rolls.
My worries that GS defense had found a way to shut down the Celtics offense were premature - particularly Tatum but also others sharpened their games after game 2. There is still plenty of room for improvement in the Celtics offense, but this series won;t end as a defensive battle turned GS victory.
The Warriors' best-case scenario now is a win in 7. This Celtic team will not drop 3 straight from games 4 to 6.
The Celtics' best-case scenario is, unlikely though it may be, a win in 5.
A lot depends on Rob. His play in Q4 - the mix of blocks, steals, altered/prevented shots, rebounds, balls kept alive at both ends - was not unusual to see from him during the regular season, but it is the first time he hit that level in the playoffs. How much of THAT Rob will we see for the rest of the finals?
If it comes down to a game 7 in SF, it could go either way. If I had to bet right now on the end I'd say Celtics in 6.
One thing he noted: in the regular season, Steph averaged ~5 catch and shoot three attempts per game versus ~6.5 pull up three attempts.
Thus far through 3 games, he has a total of 7 catch and shoot attempts and 30 pull up attempts. He's getting his threes, but, at least since Q1 game 1, the Celtics are making him work for them.
His big picture view of the Celtics' defense is that they have essentially taken all of the Warriors fancy passing attack away, leaving Golden State left with basically transition offense and Steph pick and rolls.
My worries that GS defense had found a way to shut down the Celtics offense were premature - particularly Tatum but also others sharpened their games after game 2. There is still plenty of room for improvement in the Celtics offense, but this series won;t end as a defensive battle turned GS victory.
The Warriors' best-case scenario now is a win in 7. This Celtic team will not drop 3 straight from games 4 to 6.
The Celtics' best-case scenario is, unlikely though it may be, a win in 5.
A lot depends on Rob. His play in Q4 - the mix of blocks, steals, altered/prevented shots, rebounds, balls kept alive at both ends - was not unusual to see from him during the regular season, but it is the first time he hit that level in the playoffs. How much of THAT Rob will we see for the rest of the finals?
If it comes down to a game 7 in SF, it could go either way. If I had to bet right now on the end I'd say Celtics in 6.
I think Draymond is an easy HOF selection. For whatever its worth, BBRef's "Hall of Fame Probability" has him at 60%.
As we wait for the 9:08 tip maybe you could entertain us with the origin story behind Rocco's log?
I might need to play around on basketball reference later, but Draymond Green's highest point total in a single game this year is 16. I wonder how many players averaged nearly 30 minutes a game and never scored higher than 16 at least once. A quick look showed Royce O'Neal as the only other one.
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I imagine Dray's Points/Assist are off the charts feeding Steph/Klay all these years.
GSW wonks will come up with measures to make Dray's HOF bid a slam dunk. Heck @Sam Ray Not could easily window dress Dray's resume
Dray will slide right into the media mix post-retirement, which will also help his HOF bid.
I guess I shouldn't be surprised with the resistance, the average NBA fan looks at PPG and disregards defense in valuing players
I mean, the Golden State "dynasty" is pretty historic. Nothing is going to match what the Celtics did in a 9-team league in the 1960s, but 3 titles, 73 wins, and a playing style that revolutionized the modern game puts them pretty high in the pantheon of all-time great teams.
Long time ago there was a member Rocco Graziosa. He was an active Port Cellar dweller. He once posted that he'd eat a log of his own shit if something happened. Full disclosure, I can't remember but PKB suggested in another post (see below) I found that it was when the Sox were down to the MFYs in 2004. That sounds about right to me but I'll stand to be corrected.
Rocco was either banned or left in about 2015 from his posting history.
I'm sure everyone has a better memory than me but that's the start.
I messaged a friend after G1 that the Warriors looked gassed in the 4th, especially Steph. That seemed to bear itself out again in G3. Someone upthread suggested that GSW blew the game by heaving up desperation 3s at the start of the quarter rather than working for a good shot— well, this can also be the result of fatigue. As much as the 3rd has favored GSW, Boston leads the 4th quarter 63-27 (!) in the two competitive games. Assuming that GSW continues to have strong 3Qs, it will be interesting to see if they have anything left in the tank for the end, especially when playing on the road.
Edit: across the three games, GSW +43 in the 3rd Q and BOS +40 in the 4th. That's more even than I'd realized, in terms of each team equally dominating one quarter. It's also completely batshit crazy.
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Thanks Wade. I always get a kick out of HRB's certainty, but when he unleashes the Rocco log you know it's a lock
My best recollection is that Rocco made the infamous promise based on his skepticism that Danny Ainge would actually pull the trigger on an all-in move.
not much to add to what Wade said but I am pretty sure Rocco had a tendency to make a lot of those type of outlandish guarantees and lost a decent amount of them…Thanks Wade. I always get a kick out of HRB's certainty, but when he unleashes the Rocco log you know it's a lock
In fact, I believe he left SoSH because he lost so many of those bets?
That’s not even my favorite lost wager that the bettor never followed through on. I believe it was Holmes Smarter Brother aka Rasputin who promised to fuck a sheep in Times Square if Shea Hillenbrand made the All Star team.
Those Celtics were in an 8-team league without free agency with two of those teams the equivalent of G-League franchises. I know we are all Celtics fans who love the history but what this trio has done over the years is more impressive under the conditions where they were accomplished. I’m surprised this is even a debate and yes Klay will get in also.
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