Challenging los Chilenos: Copa America 2019

InstaFace

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Perhaps that's because people can watch him play, and directly see whether he's performing at the level you'd expect, or something less than that.

I don't think fans have the full story or always have enough context to properly ascribe degrees of credit and blame, but we're not completely in the dark, either.
 

Kliq

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Messi has played on a club that is on the very shortest of lists for richest in the world. Rarely has that been pointed out when he is receiving high fives and collecting trophies. Not sure why Roma and LFC’s finances matter.

Those comebacks aren’t a sign of a character flaw for him, but it works both ways because he is one of the few megastars who doesn’t get much blame when the team fails. It’s always due to management, coaching, teammates, or fans who don’t understand what they are actually seeing.
I do find it an amusing tradition during each international tournament when Aguero, Dybala, Higuian, Otamendi, etc. revert into being hapless bums and Messi is forced to carry a team of incompetent players like he is LeBron on 2007 Cavs.

I don't think Messi is to blame for Argentina's struggles, but the fact that he has never won a significant trophy on the international level, while having a solid supporting cast and coinciding with a down period in Brazilian football (by their standards) is a blemish on someone who is in the GOAT discussion.
 

coremiller

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I do find it an amusing tradition during each international tournament when Aguero, Dybala, Higuian, Otamendi, etc. revert into being hapless bums and Messi is forced to carry a team of incompetent players like he is LeBron on 2007 Cavs.

I don't think Messi is to blame for Argentina's struggles, but the fact that he has never won a significant trophy on the international level, while having a solid supporting cast and coinciding with a down period in Brazilian football (by their standards) is a blemish on someone who is in the GOAT discussion.
So having attacked Messi before, I think the "never won a trophy with Argentina" criticism is baseless. They've lost two Copa finals on penalties and a World Cup final in extra time. Not every tournament has been a spectacular flameout like 2018 was.
 

Vinho Tinto

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So having attacked Messi before, I think the "never won a trophy with Argentina" criticism is baseless. They've lost two Copa finals on penalties and a World Cup final in extra time. Not every tournament has been a spectacular flameout like 2018 was.
He can both experience some bad luck and played a role in their losses. Remember those great knockout round matches that Messi has played for Argentina? Me neither. He's not a negative (and is clearly a plus) on the team, but this image that he's dragging a team of donkeys through tournaments is untrue.
 

Kliq

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So having attacked Messi before, I think the "never won a trophy with Argentina" criticism is baseless. They've lost two Copa finals on penalties and a World Cup final in extra time. Not every tournament has been a spectacular flameout like 2018 was.
His team's have had the most, or close to the most, talent in a lot of tournaments and he has nothing to show for it. Losing two Copa finals to Chile is bad; especially when both of them were 0-0 leading to penalties (the second of which he missed his PK attempt). The WC Final I don't really hold against him because just making it to the final is a big accomplishment, but that game was also 0-0 after 90'. When you have maybe the best attacking player ever, flanked by other world-class attacking players, you would think you could come up with some goals in the finals of these tournaments.

I'm not a "Messi SUX" guy; but when you are in the GOAT conversation, it helps to have won some important games at the international level.
 

Vinho Tinto

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Last thing before I hit the road, Messi smoked that penalty last night. The placement wasn't perfect, but it had enough to give the keeper no chance due to the power behind it.
 

Zososoxfan

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What a crazy sequence. That was a horrendous giveaway followed by one of the best defensive plays I’ve seen in a awhile. Then Alexis miffes one perfectly into the low corner [shrugs].
 

Zososoxfan

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Argentina finally showed up a bit and got a 2-0 win against Qatar to finish 2nd in the group and advances to the QF to play a frisky Venezuela squad on Friday.

Scaloni seemed to like the formation with 2 strikers ahead of Messi, so he stuck with Lautaro and Aguero ahead of Messi. In the MF, Paredes, GLC, and De Paul got another start all together. In the back, Foyth came in for Pezzella and Saravia got his starting RB spot back from Casco.

Argentina looked much more fluid in attack, but was fortunate that Lautaro finishes an early chance off of a brutal Qatar turnover in the back. Lautaro has really shown his quality this tournament and his workrate stands out. The guy is hungry and a real threat up top. Aguero was probably the best player, non-Messi division (a distinction known as MOTMOTM on Barca boards), and got himself a very nice goal shortly after 80 minutes to salt this one away. Paredes and De Paul both had immense matches. Paredes was the metronome and kept Argentina in possession much better than the first two matches. He has the most passes and the highest completion percentage on the squad thru 3 matches. De Paul played on both wings in the first half and was a good outlet for everyone in attack. However, even more impressive IMO was how well he blended with Dybala and Acuna when they came on as subs. GLC just doesn't look sharp at the moment and Dybala brought a very different dynamic when he came on. Acuna came on for GLC shortly after halftime and between Acuna and De Paul Argentina had a very hardworking MF. Saravia looked invigorated after watching the Paraguay match from the sideline and Tagliafico was his typical solid self. Foyth played a pretty sloppy game and got lucky he didn't get a second yellow late in the match. Sensing this, Scaloni used his last sub to get Pezzella on for Foyth. I'd rather see both of them and have Otamendi take a seat, but I doubt that happens. I still wonder whether we'll see Funes Mori this tournament.

Today, Uruguay-Chile will decide who wins the group. The runner up will have to face a stiff test in Colombia in the QF, so I expect Uruguay will come out going after the win while Chile wins the group with a win or draw. The winner will get a third place team TBD. That TBD depends on the result of Japan-Ecuador. I may be wrong, but I believe the winner of that match would automatically advance while a draw eliminates both teams.
 

DJnVa

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So Suarez appealed for a handball...on the keeper.

You do you Luis.
 

shawnrbu

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VAR introduces itself to Copa America taking away a Chile goal for presumably a very narrow offside. Needless to say Alexis and Vidal were not pleased with the decision.
 

DJnVa

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Alexis just beat former teammate Ospina on the 5th and final PK to send Chile through.
 

shawnrbu

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Love Yerry Mina. His club should give him more playing time.

I was surprised Falcao did not take a penalty. He converted against Argentina in 2015 and England in 2018.

Chile hit some impressive penalties, especially Vidal and Vargas.
 

Time to Mo Vaughn

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Brazil Argentina tonight at 8:30 in the Semis. I've only caught bits and pieces of the Copa America so far, but will probably try to tune in for all of this one.
 

coremiller

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Brazil-Argentina in a competitive knockout match should always be a must-watch. I think I'll shell out the $5 for ESPN+ just for this.

The game is at Mineirão in Belo Horizonte, the site of Brazil's last major tournament semifinal appearance, when they lost 7-1 to Germany. They did beat Argentina 3-0 there in a world cup qualifier in 2016.
 

Zososoxfan

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Brazil-Argentina in a competitive knockout match should always be a must-watch. I think I'll shell out the $5 for ESPN+ just for this.

The game is at Mineirão in Belo Horizonte, the site of Brazil's last major tournament semifinal appearance, when they lost 7-1 to Germany. They did beat Argentina 3-0 there in a world cup qualifier in 2016.
FYI - the games are also being broadcast in Spanish on Telemundo.
 

Kliq

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Absolutely gorgeous goal by Brazil, one of the best team goals you’ll ever see.
 

Time to Mo Vaughn

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Insane effort by Jesus to set up that second goal. I kind of like how work the physicality, players are fighting through it rather than diving at minor contact.
 

Kliq

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Insane effort by Jesus to set up that second goal. I kind of like how work the physicality, players are fighting through it rather than diving at minor contact.
Yup, total effort goal and he was rewarded for it; even more impressive is that he’s limping around out there.
 

coremiller

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I think Argentina have been the better side for most of the game and have controlled the flow. But Brazil's back four have outplayed Argentina's back line: their marking has been better and they've made just about all the necessary interceptions and tackles and blocks. Argentina's defense made a couple of mistakes and Brazil punished them.
 

Kliq

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Dani Alves has to be the best 45 year old soccer player in history.
 

coremiller

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Is there VAR at Copa America? It doesn't look like it. But Otamendi got body-checked on that corner.
 

Kliq

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That feint by Juan Foyth was nasty; who knew he had that kind of skill on the ball?
 

coremiller

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That feint by Juan Foyth was nasty; who knew he had that kind of skill on the ball?
With Trippier likely on the move to Italy, I think Foyth is going to be Spurs' first choice right back this year.
 

OCST

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Love Yerry Mina. His club should give him more playing time.

I was surprised Falcao did not take a penalty. He converted against Argentina in 2015 and England in 2018.

Chile hit some impressive penalties, especially Vidal and Vargas.
Mina was hurt off-and-on for most of 2018-19. When he was available, it was hard to get him in because Michael Keane and Kurt Zouma were playing very well as the CB duo.

Zouma was on loan from Chelsea and they may not let him go due to their transfer ban.

When he played, his talent was obvious but he's also very raw and mistake-prone.
 

Zososoxfan

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With Trippier likely on the move to Italy, I think Foyth is going to be Spurs' first choice right back this year.
Yeah I don’t know how fast he is; Poch obviously is a big fan.
I love me some Foyth, but if he's the first team RB in a back 4, that's not good. He's a wonderful option as RCB in back 3, or as a CB in a back 4, but his moonlighting at RB is more of a reflection on Argentina and Spurs' lack of good options. He is OK in space, but he gets beat and uses his physicality to get back into plays. It has got him carded multiple times. Nevertheless, I think he's the future of the Argentina backline.

As for last night's match, @coremiller has it right. Brazil's backline was the difference. Argentina was moving the ball well until the final third when Brazil tightened up and didn't allow anything through the middle. A piece of brilliance from Alves and a weird goal at 70' and that was all she wrote. On the first goal, De Paul takes most of the blame as he tracked back and got caught ball watching while not marking anyone. Pezzella slid over in case Firmino took on his man but he also didn't peek behind him. Foyth was marking a man on the far post, but probably should've come more strongly to the middle and let De Paul pickup the deep man. At the end of the day, it was more about good offense against a defense that doesn't get to practice enough together. Nevertheless, I'm still annoyed that Funes Mori didn't get PT over Otamendi.

The second was weird and Foyth seems like he thought play was stopped. Aguero was tripped in the box off the ball that was completely missed. Arthur also threw a body check on Otamendi that would've made Torey Krug proud. I know nothing gets called on corners and I'm generally OK with that, but Arthur squared him up and leveled him. Messi went off on the ref after the match and while it was a fair result, the ref missed a couple of big ones.

Scaloni did pretty well for his first tournament and I'd be OK with him continuing. He was clearly overwhelmed early on, but he eventually found an XI that worked cohesively and put guys in good positions. However, his adoration of ADM is inexcusable and Otamendi probably should be a backup at this point. Nevertheless, if he drills this system there is a clear path forward. Dybala/Lo Celso slots into Messi's #10 AMF role, one of the young guns (Correa, Correa, Simeone, G. Martinez, Pavon, or Palacios) replaces Aguero at some point soon, and Scaloni figures out which 2 workrate MFs to pair with Paredes to settle the MF. The biggest problem remains the defense. However, with a core of Funes Mori, Pezzella, Tagliafico, and Foyth all under 30 and a slew of promising young, but untested players behind them, it's not a lost cause. Hopefully, Scaloni can provide some continuity and have the team defense improve over the course of a cycle.
 

Nick Kaufman

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One of those days when the score doesn't tell the story. Chile lost a boatload of chances, capped by a lost penalty whereas Peru converted their own. It could easitly have been 3-2, 4-2, 5-2 for Chile.
 

InstaFace

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boy, whoever was telling me that Messi and Dybala can't play together on the pitch... it was looking pretty good with Dybala playing second striker, but you were right in the end.