Charlotte Loses ASG Over HB2

Greg29fan

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The Vertical ‏@TheVertical 29m29 minutes ago
NBA pulls 2017 All-Star Game from Charlotte, focuses on New Orleans. @WojVerticalNBA report on @TheVertical.
"NBA commissioner Adam Silver had threatened to move All-Star Weekend out of Charlotte unless a discriminatory North Carolina law aimed at the state’s lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender community was changed – and time to do so has run out because of the logistics and planning the NBA needs to run its marquee midseason event, league sources said.

The issue is centered on North Carolina’s House Bill 2, a law that mandates transgender people use public restrooms corresponding to the sex listed on their birth certificates. The law also omits LGBT people from North Carolina’s anti-discrimination protections, forbids local governments from widening LGBT protections and excludes all forms of workplace discrimination lawsuits from North Carolina state courts.

Charlotte Hornets owner Michael Jordan had been counting on All-Star Weekend as a signature event for his franchise, and the economic impact of losing the All-Star Game for the franchise and region promises to be dramatic."
http://sports.yahoo.com/news/nba-pulls-2017-all-star-game-from-charlotte-focuses-on-new-orleans-190148437.html
 

Kliq

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I believe Charlotte voted against the bill, but the rest of the state supported it. I understand why businesses are staying away from North Carolina and it is does look like an effective strategy; but a lot of people who didn't have anything to do with the bill are the ones getting hit the hardest.
 

Tony C

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that's the way it is with many/most boycotts -- a crude tool, but can be powerful.
 

Greg29fan

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I believe Charlotte voted against the bill, but the rest of the state supported it. I understand why businesses are staying away from North Carolina and it is does look like an effective strategy; but a lot of people who didn't have anything to do with the bill are the ones getting hit the hardest.
The City of Charlotte passed the ordinance that led to HB2 being passed by the NC General Assembly and signed by the governor.
 

Drocca

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This was an important and necessary step. I am so thankful to the NBA as a citizen of North Carolina.
 

BigSoxFan

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I met Adam Silver at the draft. He was an awesome guy. I like him even more now.
 

RG33

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Commission Silver. Integrity of the game. Well done.
 

DJnVa

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I agree with the move but does the NBA instruct arenas to have gender-neutral restrooms?
 

RG33

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I agree with the move but does the NBA instruct arenas to have gender-neutral restrooms?
Why would that matter? It isn't about what arena's have or don't have, it is about State governments restricting something based on sexual orientation or gender identification.

The "bathroom" part is also just a small part of what the law restricts -- it also excludes sexual orientation from the State's discrimation protections.
 

crystalline

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The "bathroom" part is also just a small part of what the law restricts -- it also excludes sexual orientation from the State's discrimation protections.

Actually, it seems like the bill isn't primarily about bathrooms at all. The bill also contains provisions that lock the minimum wage at a low level and restrict people's rights to sue.

It looks like the bathroom provisions are a wedge-issue front, distracting people from a bill that's really about helping the GOP's large corporate donors at the expense of the working class. It's standard GOP procedure.

The Post:
The law not only reverses a Charlotte ordinance that had extended some rights to gay and transgender people. It also prevents city and county governments from setting a minimum-wage standard for private employers and limits how people can sue for discrimination in state court. And it contains a provision allowing for remaining parts of the law to stand if others are struck down in court.

Those provisions, opponents say, are pernicious attempts to roll back rights, and they have been tucked into a bill that has a very different public face.

“This is really a devious bill that harms workers under the guise of regulating bathrooms,” said Harold Lloyd, a professor at Wake Forest University School of Law.
I'm surprised that the NBA is getting involved in a political fight. But good for them for standing up for tolerance, and against stirring up hate.
 
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DJnVa

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Why would that matter? It isn't about what arena's have or don't have, it is about State governments restricting something based on sexual orientation or gender identification
I think it makes a stronger argument when you're arguing about gender neutral bathrooms if your opponent can't retort that you also don't have gender neutral bathrooms. Or maybe they do. That's what I'm asking.

It's like if the NFL made a stink about a law that excluded minorities or something and then people point out that the NFL has a shitty record hiring them for head coaching positions.
 

Papelbon's Poutine

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Shitty record =\= prohibiting. And hiring practices =\= basic freedoms. There's merit involved with one of those and civil right involved with the other.

The NBA doesn't control the laws of the states they have teams in. NC passed the law, there's nothing the NBA can do to change it. Their instructions don't supersede the law so I'm not sure why that matters. A better analogy would be focused at their league office and it's bathrooms. The other arenas in the league aren't relevant unless they have a similar law on the books.
 

finnVT

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I think it makes a stronger argument when you're arguing about gender neutral bathrooms if your opponent can't retort that you also don't have gender neutral bathrooms. Or maybe they do. That's what I'm asking.

It's like if the NFL made a stink about a law that excluded minorities or something and then people point out that the NFL has a shitty record hiring them for head coaching positions.
It's not at all about having gender neutral bathrooms though. It's about letting people use the bathrooms for the gender they identify as.
 

scott bankheadcase

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Shitty record =\= prohibiting. And hiring practices =\= basic freedoms. There's merit involved with one of those and civil right involved with the other.

The NBA doesn't control the laws of the states they have teams in. NC passed the law, there's nothing the NBA can do to change it. Their instructions don't supersede the law so I'm not sure why that matters. A better analogy would be focused at their league office and it's bathrooms. The other arenas in the league aren't relevant unless they have a similar law on the books.
The league office bathrooms do not discriminate, except against people who don't like to listen to NBA TV while using them.
 

Sprowl

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I'm impressed that the NBA kept their position low-key but clear during the immediate aftermath of the law's passage, and followed through in the end.
 

Blacken

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I'm impressed that the NBA kept their position low-key but clear during the immediate aftermath of the law's passage, and followed through in the end.
Same--but I'm particularly happy that I'm not really surprised by it, because of how well the league has handled so many things since Silver took over. The NBA has its problems, but I appreciate that at least one major sport is willing to use its position and its power for social good.
 

DJnVa

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It's not at all about having gender neutral bathrooms though. It's about letting people use the bathrooms for the gender they identify as.
Fine. Pardon my sloppy writing.

When they move the ASG to NO, can transgenders that attend use the bathroom of the gender they identify with? That's all I'm asking.

And, to forestall the replies saying that arenas and state laws are different things. I get that. I am not equating them. I'm just curious.
 

Blacken

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Papelbon's Poutine

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Fine. Pardon my sloppy writing.

When they move the ASG to NO, can transgenders that attend use the bathroom of the gender they identify with? That's all I'm asking.

And, to forestall the replies saying that arenas and state laws are different things. I get that. I am not equating them. I'm just curious.
Edited for unnecessary antagonism.

I doubt they'd pull it from NC and award it to another cite that had the same issues.

Apologies for the hot take.
 

moly99

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that's the way it is with many/most boycotts -- a crude tool, but can be powerful.
Actually boycotts rarely work. The 2010-2011 Arizona boycott did not work either. The offending laws had to be overturned by the courts, and I imagine it will play out similarly here.

All this will do is to further polarize opinion, with social conservatives seeing it as proof of the war on traditional values. As much as I hate lawyers, we have a supreme court for a reason. Let the justices do their jobs.
 

Cellar-Door

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Actually boycotts rarely work. The 2010-2011 Arizona boycott did not work either. The offending laws had to be overturned by the courts, and I imagine it will play out similarly here.

All this will do is to further polarize opinion, with social conservatives seeing it as proof of the war on traditional values. As much as I hate lawyers, we have a supreme court for a reason. Let the justices do their jobs.
They sometimes work politically.
It's among the reasons Mike Pence was on the verge of losing his governorship before dropping out to be VP. He never recovered from that bill. McCrory might be in the same place. A lot of the economic indicators say he should be cruising to re-election, instead he's in a dead heat and his opponent's fundraising exploded after HB2, I'd guess that losing a huge economic windfall (All Star games generate a ton of local revenue with not a ton of cost for the city/state) is going to come up again and again in this campaign.
 

Blacken

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All this will do is to further polarize opinion, with social conservatives seeing it as proof of the war on traditional values. As much as I hate lawyers, we have a supreme court for a reason. Let the justices do their jobs.
Those poor social conservatives feel warred upon? How about the literal millions of people they've been waging war upon for decades?

To hell with this sort of mealy-mouthed nonsense. The Supreme Court doesn't replace individual and group actions, and the NBA in no way should support actions that threaten the lives and safety of the people that work for and are associated with them (or anyone else, for that matter).
 

Old Fart Tree

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Well, fuck. Good for the nba. I mean I could be super cynical and say that they only did this as a calculated profit maximizing move that ran focus groups to determine public opinion and the dollars lost by coming down on either side - and frankly I'm sure that's true - but it's still the right move even if it's not as courageous as some marketers might tell you it is.

Good for them for making the right call no matter what the motive.
 

Blacken

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Sure, you can count YCP. It's a great thing--but it's also a minor charity that started external to the NHL and doesn't really involve much investment on their part. There's not a lot of skin in the game, and, while definitely positive, there is a correspondingly small impact. You can't say the same about the NBA's actions since Silver took over, be it the Sterling situation or this.

I think the NHL would freak out if players made on-the-ice political statements. I think that the NHL would sweep a Donald Sterling situation under the rug. I can say with some confidence that the NBA will make hard, positive choices, because they've done it and they're doing it and Silver's no Bettman.
 

Kliq

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One of the ESPN guys, maybe Torre, brought up an interesting point: The league is doing this in the US, because a state has passed an intolerant law that the NBA does not want to support. However, are they still going to do business in other nations like China that have oppressive laws? It's easy enough to move ASW to one of the 28 other arenas, but how far are they willing to go?
 

HomeRunBaker

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One of the ESPN guys, maybe Torre, brought up an interesting point: The league is doing this in the US, because a state has passed an intolerant law that the NBA does not want to support. However, are they still going to do business in other nations like China that have oppressive laws? It's easy enough to move ASW to one of the 28 other arenas, but how far are they willing to go?
The NBA is still doing business in North Carolina as well. The NBA was not scheduled to host their All-Star weekend in China.....their premier event was scheduled for Charlotte so this analogy is apples to oranges.
 

Kliq

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The NBA is still doing business in North Carolina as well. The NBA was not scheduled to host their All-Star weekend in China.....their premier event was scheduled for Charlotte so this analogy is apples to oranges.
Okay, doing business is one thing, but the NBA specifically chooses to play exhibition games in China (Pelicans and Rockets are playing this year) in a country which has discriminatory laws against transgender individuals. Should they move that game somewhere else?
 

RG33

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The first 3 articles are not about transgender individuals. They were men who either dressed up in disguise (first two) or just went into a ladies' locker room, and then used the law as their excuse. The 4th article was about an issue in a gender neutral bathroom, so I'm not sure how that applies to HB2, and the 5th article was about a guy who dressed as a woman and snuck into the ladies' room to peep and mentioned nothing of the law or anything about being transgender. He would have still done that regardless of a law like HB2.

I don't see your point.

To me, your argument is the same as not allowing gay men to be Scout leaders -- you know, because being a gay man could also somehow mean that they are also pedophiles and we have to protect the children from the pedophiles.
 

Tony C

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Actually boycotts rarely work. The 2010-2011 Arizona boycott did not work either. The offending laws had to be overturned by the courts, and I imagine it will play out similarly here.

All this will do is to further polarize opinion, with social conservatives seeing it as proof of the war on traditional values. As much as I hate lawyers, we have a supreme court for a reason. Let the justices do their jobs.
I think the academic literature shows they work about 1/3 of the time, which is significant..and significantly depends on various contextual factors.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Okay, doing business is one thing, but the NBA specifically chooses to play exhibition games in China (Pelicans and Rockets are playing this year) in a country which has discriminatory laws against transgender individuals. Should they move that game somewhere else?
Again, you are comparing a localized exhibition game in China with the leagues premier event where tens of thousands of fans from around the country and in some cases the world are traveling to the leagues chosen city to host the event.

The law isn't only about transgender individual. The law is about discrimination in a number of areas that affect all residents of the state.
 

moondog80

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Again, you are comparing a localized exhibition game in China with the leagues premier event where tens of thousands of fans from around the country and in some cases the world are traveling to the leagues chosen city to host the event.
We're also talking about a country that is way behind anything North Carolina is doing in terms of LGBT rights.

Regardless of what you think of the bill (and I do not support it), this move has little to no consequence for the NBA. It's easy. Almost the entire fan base either supports the move or doesn't care enough to stop watching. Trying to leverage China, on the other hand, the NBA probably feels that could actually impact their overseas growth, which means the fact that they have zero gay marriage...well, they're just going to overlook that.
 

joe dokes

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moly99

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Those poor social conservatives feel warred upon? How about the literal millions of people they've been waging war upon for decades?

To hell with this sort of mealy-mouthed nonsense. The Supreme Court doesn't replace individual and group actions, and the NBA in no way should support actions that threaten the lives and safety of the people that work for and are associated with them (or anyone else, for that matter).
Do you remember what happened when Gavin Newsom (the onetime mayor of San Francisco) issued marriage licenses to gays in SF in 2008? There was a conservative backlash in California that led to a law that banned gay marriage in that state.

This will just make things harder for transgender people until the courts overturn the law.
 
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scott bankheadcase

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We're also talking about a country that is way behind anything North Carolina is doing in terms of LGBT rights.

Regardless of what you think of the bill (and I do not support it), this move has little to no consequence for the NBA. It's easy. Almost the entire fan base either supports the move or doesn't care enough to stop watching. Trying to leverage China, on the other hand, the NBA probably feels that could actually impact their overseas growth, which means the fact that they have zero gay marriage...well, they're just going to overlook that.
This move was NOT easy. It will end up costing the league money (or to put more accurately the league will make less money than if it was kept in Charlotte). A culture of inclusion is hugely important to Adam and he will try to impact that where he can actually make a difference.

The only point I'll make about China is the NBA's impact there has been very positive on the Chinese people and their access to non-controlled media. It's also been a very good for NBA business. Adam knows he can't change everything everywhere, he even said it in his statement. But he can choose to make social impact where he thinks it will move the needle.
 

joe dokes

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Do you remember what happened when Gavin Newsom (the onetime mayor of San Francisco) issued marriage licenses to gays in SF in 2008? There was a conservative backlash in California that led to an initiative that led to a law that banned gay marriage in that state.

This will just make things harder for transgender people until the courts overturn the law.
In a sense you are right. But its in the same sense that Brown v Board and the Civil Rights Act made it "harder" for southern blacks. Wherever the push starts, it will be returned. But it has to start somewhere.
 

joe dokes

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Since you've said it twice, I'll object; the All-Star game is a fun exhibition at best, but it's nowhere near being the league's premier event.
Its more than just the game. Isn't it like a 3-day celebrity jock-sniffing masturbation fest? The league doesn't really have too many singular "events" like that. Its not my spped, but the NBA does that All star game event stuff better than anyone, IMO.
 

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Its more than just the game. Isn't it like a 3-day celebrity jock-sniffing masturbation fest? The league doesn't really have too many singular "events" like that.
The NBA Finals are the league's biggest event by far. Unless you're restricting "event" so much that it's a meaningless topic.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Since you've said it twice, I'll object; the All-Star game is a fun exhibition at best, but it's nowhere near being the league's premier event.
You are misguided. It brings out all of the top of the top of celebrities and entertainers hosting massive parties throughout the city. It is a who's who of the famous weekend gathering. Shows, concerts, celebrations, etc.
 

SumnerH

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You are misguided. It brings out all of the top of the top of celebrities and entertainers hosting massive parties throughout the city. It is a who's who of the famous weekend gathering. Shows, concerts, celebrations, etc.
And draws like 1/4 the viewership of a Finals game, which also pulls in a ton of celebreties and entertainers.
 

scott bankheadcase

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All-Star weekends are planned 2 years in advance. Vendor contracts and RFPs have gone out in Charlotte. Man hours have been used scouting locations. Some down payments will be forfeited. Locations for events in the new city will be more expensive to lockdown as the date is much closer. The league will not be crying about this, but logistically this is a hard event to plan, setup and execute, and the normal timeline is a little over 2 years.
 

scott bankheadcase

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And draws like 1/4 the viewership of a Finals game, which also pulls in a ton of celebreties and entertainers.
You're both right? Finals the game is the event. All-Star is a huge showcase staged event. The Finals are the highest rated/most valuable. But All-Star is a showcase made up by the league and extremely valuable to corporate partners (none of which get the same access at Finals). There's a reason Blake Griffin jumped over a Kia.


To sum up, Finals is more valuable but absolutely you can compare it to All-Star. Comparing All-Star to a pre-season or exhibition game in China, is definitely misguided.
 
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Hornets Minority Owner Has Wild, Bigoted Shit To Say About The NBA Moving The All-Star Game
“What is wrong with a person using a bathroom provided for the sex the were born with, if you want to change your gender so be it, we are a free county, but don’t force 8 years old children to be exposed to having to share bathroom facilities with people that don’t share the organs they were Bourne (sic) with, this is plain wrong, this could cause irreparable damages to a children’s that don’t understand why they have to see what God did not mean for them to witness, we have some very confused business as well as political humans that frankly have made this a political issue rather then (sic) moral issues, SHAME ON THEM.”