Sale was awesome. Until he got hurt. He’s been complete dogshit since then. I couldn’t care less if he gets the vaccine or not, but another lost season would suck.
Chris Sale aiming to return
- Thread starter edoug
- Start date
Well. Maybe if enough bad happens to Chaim's Oxygen Tank Rotation, Cora will be forced to give the young guns a shot. Don't get me wrong, a healthy, effective Chris Sale and Eovaldi is what I'm hoping for. But I for one am just itching to see guys like Houck, Whitlock, and (call me crazy but maybe even) Hernandez get to start!
I'm pessimistic about the rest. but what do I know. Nothing hopefully.
I'm pessimistic about the rest. but what do I know. Nothing hopefully.
Hernandez. Yeah. Crazy.
I wanted both Houck and Whitlock in the rotation and think Houck has the makings of a "no. 2". Limited innings on both their arms will make it difficult for them to go a full season though. I suspect Bloom will be tossing out the entire "rotation" idea and the whole season will have a lot of guys starting for 3,4 innings one day and then 2 innings a few days later. The days of the 7, even 6 inning starter being a regular thing is sadly ending. A win is a win though, and I like those more than seeing a starting pitcher go 5 strong innings and then give up 3 runs in the 6th.
I respectfully disagree with the bolded. Chris Sale asked out of game 5 of the 2018 World Series, the clinching game, even though he was on full rest. This forced David Price, who should have been World Series MVP, to start the game on short rest. Then after asking out, Sale came in to pitch the 9th when the game was well in hand (a 5 -1- lead). That does not sound like the actions of a competitive and accountable ace to me.
I was shocked at the lack of reaction then, and remain so. Imagine what the board/Sox fans would have said if the roles were reversed...
Source on this? My recollection was that it was the right move because (A) Price was on fire, (B) Sale was not, and (C) Sale would be well-rested to pitch a Game 6 if need be.
https://amp.usatoday.com/amp/1797895002
Sale was expected to start game 5 on regular rest, but after talking to him (and Price) Cora decided to go with Price on 3 days rest. A “competitive ace” takes the ball, especially if their teammate is on short rest.
Again, imagine the reaction if it was Price asking out of the start instead of Sale. I bet you wouldn’t have forgotten that.
Perhaps the Red Sox winning the World Series prevented people from dwelling on it.
I have no real reason to doubt you -- I assume you saw the "asking out" somewhere or wouldn't say it here. But that story isn't it.
I read "we talked about it the whole day" as referring to Cora and the staff, and "I just talked to Chris and David" is Cora telling the pitchers what Cora and the staff decided. How does that possibly read as Sale "asking out"?
You don’t think Sale had any say into whether or not he was going to start that game? Seriously?
Like if Sale demanded he get the ball for the clinching game, your opinion is Cora would have overruled him and said, no, I’m going with the guy on short rest.
Yes it is.
Or Cora would have said (in a nicer way), "You have sucked. David has not. Get ready to pitch in relief."
Your "Sale asked out" sounds like it comes from a place of not liking Sale, rather than even a Clemens-McNamara level of actual evidence. (and that's fine. I'm not liking him much either). But has anyone ever reported on even rumors that Sale "asked out"? Or is your conclusion based entirely on your supposition of what "must have happened" based on that story?
Sounds like Cora was determined to ride the hot hand, and had a meeting to make sure Price could indeed go on short rest and that Sale was given a proper heads up on the decision. Very different than Sale “asking out” of Game 5, especially as Sale came on to end the game. The “demand the ball” stuff is narrative nonsense.
Wait, so you guys think Cora made this decision, to start a player who had not only started a game 3 days before, but also pitched in relief just a day previously, over their ace who was on regular rest because...hot hand?? And Cora didn't even consult Sale before making this decision? Let's look at that. As you guys may or may not remember, Price was pretty awful in the postseason coming into 2018. From 2010 (when he was a starter) through 2017 Price had a 1 - 8 record in the postseason. He threw 67 2/3 postseason innings over that stretch with an ERA of 5.32. Then in his first 2 starts in the 2018 postseason he allowed 7 earned runs in 6 1/3 innings. He did have one great start and one good to very good start following that, but with 2 terrible stats and 2 good ones he was hardly a "hot hand" (4.42 ERA). So maybe Cora knew something about Price on 3 days rest (which was really less considering his relief appearance in game 3). But no, that's not it either; Price was never used on 3 days rest in his time with the Red Sox before game 5, so it was quite unusual to have him start on short rest in this situation.
We know Sale was scheduled to start game 5, and that he even spoke to reporters before game 4, which is customary for the next game starter. Something changed and the team made the drastic and very unorthodox decision to start a pitcher on 3 days rest who had also pitched in relief in the interim instead of their #1 who was on regular rest. And it's your contention that this was all Cora's last minute decision and Sale had no say in the matter. That is non-sensical. If Cora made that very late call on his own and Sale wanted the ball, don't you think he, as a "competitive and accountable ace," would have been upset? Furious? Did you see any sign of that? Of course Sale was consulted about this move; hell, I think there's a good chance he initiated it. There is no possible way Cora made the change to starting Price without Sale signing off on it. None.
So Sale at best opted out of the potential clinching game of the World Series. At worst, he asked out.
We know Sale was scheduled to start game 5, and that he even spoke to reporters before game 4, which is customary for the next game starter. Something changed and the team made the drastic and very unorthodox decision to start a pitcher on 3 days rest who had also pitched in relief in the interim instead of their #1 who was on regular rest. And it's your contention that this was all Cora's last minute decision and Sale had no say in the matter. That is non-sensical. If Cora made that very late call on his own and Sale wanted the ball, don't you think he, as a "competitive and accountable ace," would have been upset? Furious? Did you see any sign of that? Of course Sale was consulted about this move; hell, I think there's a good chance he initiated it. There is no possible way Cora made the change to starting Price without Sale signing off on it. None.
So Sale at best opted out of the potential clinching game of the World Series. At worst, he asked out.
I asked for a source for your "asking out" comment. You could have said, "there isn't one," but the complete explanation of the lack of one is appreciated.
Google "David Price to start game 5" and you'll get a third more reasonable take from Cora.
Yeah, this seemed like a situation where they knew those two guys were going to start the next two games, if necessary, in some order. Based on where they were in the series, being in an NL Park, etc., Cora made the decision to start Price before Sale. You can criticize Sale for being fragile enough that Cora thought it better to have him get an extra rest day while starting Price on three day's rest, I guess, but that seems a little silly.
There's just not enough evidence here to definitively conclude that Sale asked out or opted out. And things like "we didn't see Sale get pissed off about the decision" don't qualify as evidence.
There's just not enough evidence here to definitively conclude that Sale asked out or opted out. And things like "we didn't see Sale get pissed off about the decision" don't qualify as evidence.
And that is why grateful Red Sox fans never criticized David Price ever again.
Simple question. Do you think Cora made the decision to start Price in game 5 without consulting Sale first?
You do realize that Cora could have consulted with Sale to discuss concerns, Sale could have said, "Really Skip, I'm good." and Cora may not have been convinced. No possibility of that happening?
"Made the decision" and "consult" are virtually meaningless in this context, except insofar as they enable you to move the goalposts further away from the "asked out" line. I do not think Sale was surprised to hear the announcement when Cora made the announcement. Cora said as much. I do not think Sale had either a vote in or veto power over the decision.
According to the story you linked to as evidence that Sale asked out, it sounds like Cora/staff came up with the idea on their very own (maybe after recess and cookies), and then very carefully tiptoed over to Charles Manson Sale to let him know. Then Cora begged and pleaded with Sale not to kill David Price's family. Only then, did Price agree to the start, knowing that if he pitched fewer than 7 innings or gave up more than 3 hits, Sale would go on a homicidal rampage. It's right here in this story:
https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/mlb/2018/10/28/david-price-start-game-5-world-series-over-chris-sale/1797895002/
And with that, i'll stop my part of this de-rail. He's hurt. That sucks. He might suck too.
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I don't think anyone is saying that. I think Cora made an informed decision based on conversations with both starters, team analysts, and about 100 other guys who have access to far more detailed information than anyone on this board. Turns out it was the right decision. But there's absolutely no evidence that Chris Sale had an opportunity to win the deciding game of the World Series and said "nah, I'm good coach." Absolutely none.
I think there is close to zero chance Sale told Cora he was ok to pitch game game, then Cora made the decision to pitch Price on short rest. I don't know what your experience is with professional sports teams, but from my perspective this is a rather sophomoric example.
This post is really not worth responding to, but I do want to comment on your sarcasm and personal insults. It takes a real man to sit behind a monitor and slander a stranger, and I commend you on you stunning keyboard courage. You must be so proud.
In my opinion, based on decades of playing baseball at ever declining competition levels (maxed on in the low minors, so it wasn't that high to begin with), from working with and forging relationships with MLB teams for the better part of a decade, and from working in professional sports analytics at a pretty high level for 8 years, I do not think there is any possible way Cora makes the dramatic and drastic change to start a pitcher on short rest (and with a relief appearance a day previously) over the team ace without said ace acquiescing to the change. To think that Sale, a veteran team leader and the team's #1 pitcher would have no say in his starting the potential deciding game of the Word Series is naive at best, but more likely disingenuous.
And I'm done this conversation.
And with all of your vast baseball knowledge and time in and around the game you've never known a player to say he was good to go when he wasn't? You never knew a coach or manager to go with someone that he thought was a better option on that particular day?
I always thought Cora didn't want Sale getting at bats in the NL park. Always made more sense to me than Sale "asking out" of a start, especially since Sale ended up being the designated relief ace/closer for the same game.
This is the most careful and highest standard Red Sox board there is.
You declared: "Chris Sale asked out of game 5 of the 2018 World Series, the clinching game, even though he was on full rest."
You were asked for attribution and all of your responses make clear that what you meant was: It is my opinion that this is what must have happened.
I expect that you can see the difference between these two things and it really does seem like simply acknowledging the difference was the right way to go. When I read your first post my reaction was "holy shit, that actually happened? . . . huh, I thought I knew everything pretty much all there is to know about that championship team; i wonder if that's in some book that I need to read." Seriously, that was my thought. I'm not being sarcastic. People here know stuff all the time about the team that I do not know.
I would not have read it nearly the same way if I knew you were guessing, no matter how educated the guess. That is how this board gets read -- at least that's how I read it. I don't think this is unimportant.
Does @DaveRoberts'Shoes or anyone else have knowledge about rib-cage stress fractures in general?
Frankly, it sounds like the sort of injury my mother might suffer, after which the doctor would pull me aside and gently suggest that I broach the subject of assisted living. But maybe that’s all wrong, and therefore my expectations for Sale’s future performance (don’t expect him to stay healthy or pitch anything like his pre-2019 self) could be far too pessimistic.
(Seriously, I don’t think Sale is bound for the old-folks home, but it sounds like the sort of injury that might be indicative of an inability to handle the workload associated with being a successful starting pitcher. Hope I’m wrong.)
Frankly, it sounds like the sort of injury my mother might suffer, after which the doctor would pull me aside and gently suggest that I broach the subject of assisted living. But maybe that’s all wrong, and therefore my expectations for Sale’s future performance (don’t expect him to stay healthy or pitch anything like his pre-2019 self) could be far too pessimistic.
(Seriously, I don’t think Sale is bound for the old-folks home, but it sounds like the sort of injury that might be indicative of an inability to handle the workload associated with being a successful starting pitcher. Hope I’m wrong.)
I think most of us here would be ecstatic if Sale returned by the All Star Break and looked like Sale in the final 2 months last year (minus his rocky playoffs)....but I'll keep my fingers crossed for a month earlier.
The optimistic read is that all this time off allows Sale's various arm injuries to heal, he decides Novavax is OK, and we can get a couple years of 80% peak Sale before the wheels fall off again. I don't see any reason to expect that, but it might happen.
Didn't we offer Mookie 10/300, or something like that? I know he turned it down! Seems like we tried to extend him. I remember him saying in an interview that he was "looking forward to free agency". As much as i loved watching him play, it seemed in the end he was all about the money. The Dodgers paid the man. We'll see if he's still Mookie in a few more years.
Sale was good/ great a few years ago. His violent delivery, and skin and bones physique make him a huge liability. WE HAVE 3 MORE YEARS OF THIS TO DEAL WITH!
Sale was good/ great a few years ago. His violent delivery, and skin and bones physique make him a huge liability. WE HAVE 3 MORE YEARS OF THIS TO DEAL WITH!
FWIW, I seem to remember more than a little angst and criticism over resigning two time Tommy John award winner Nate Eovaldi to a four year deal. While 2019 didn't go so great one can argue that he's been the Sox most dependable starter over the past two seasons and so far looks poised to have another good season.
It’s a very uncommon injury, most often seen in high-level rowers. I don’t have any great insight into how Sale suffered this particular injury, but I do think it speaks to his being very injury-prone at this stage of his career.
Having injured my ribs in a similar way, I'll be amazed if he's pitching effectively before August.
Well that would be a change from his usual seasons where he goes to shit in August.
Seriously I'm beyond done with this guy. What a senseless waste of money.
Seriously I'm beyond done with this guy. What a senseless waste of money.
If Sale can come back and be the ace he’s paid and expected to be into the playoffs then It’s be worth it
I kind of felt this way last year as well, but I think it's not all bad that Sale starts the year late. It's a long season and even before his injury he hadn't been known for his ability to approach 200IP with the same vigor with which he begins the season. Last year I was lucky enough to attend Sale Day v the O's (his 1st start in 2y) in my only trip to Fenway (it's been harder to get over the Pond lately) and it was magical. Take your time and come back strong - September and October are a lot more important than April and May.
I'm with you here. The contract was not a good idea at the time and it hasn't aged well but yeah, IF Sale can come back and pitch the Sox as an ace deep into the playoffs and pitch well into the playoffs then this is all fine. David Price is a fucking hero to me. The dude should have got the WS MVP for the Sox in '18. I can't think of one SoSH poster here who though David Price was a good signing at the dawn of those World Series. And even if you go back and look at his overall track record and compare it to his cost per WAR or whatever it doesn't matter. He was there and killed it when it mattered. People on this board want to say that the Dodgers deal for Mookie was good for the Dodgers just because they won the WS in an Covid shortened season. Granted, I don't think Sale has had that moment yet- his role in the '18 season and WS was relatively limited.
Right now and at the time of the contract offered I also, amongst most here, thought it was a bad idea. But he hasn't been useless and it's not even close to being finished. I'm honestly not optimistic but I can't really judge it until it's done. We know his potential and it's far, far higher than Crawford or Sandovals.
I'm more wondering how or what his role will be when he returns. Could he end up more in a bullpen ace role if the rotation somehow is working successfully?
His contract, and how it affects the team, are what they are and rehashing whether it was a "good idea" became a waste of time after the 1000th iteration.
At this point and going forward, I'm lumping Sale in with all those other pitchers who don't fully recover from TJS until they've had an offseason that doesn't involve recovering from TJS. The rib thing will heal and let's see where he's at.
I suppose we could end every conversation about John Lackey's contributions in 2013 with "yeah, but he sucked most of the rest of time he was here." But do we have to?
At this point and going forward, I'm lumping Sale in with all those other pitchers who don't fully recover from TJS until they've had an offseason that doesn't involve recovering from TJS. The rib thing will heal and let's see where he's at.
I suppose we could end every conversation about John Lackey's contributions in 2013 with "yeah, but he sucked most of the rest of time he was here." But do we have to?