The reason they stopped asking for Betts, Benintendi, et al is probably because they Red Sox kept saying no.
Chris Sale to Boston for Moncada, Kopech, & 2 Prospects
- Thread starter JohnnyTheBone
- Start date
Well, let's say Kimbrel blows out his arm in May. Or that Hanley starts to break down and we need a 1B. Or that Pedroia declines precipitously. The point isn't that there's a particular need we should have filled instead (although I still wonder what a Goldschmidt trade would have looked like). The point is that, whatever comes up, we'll be hard-pressed to deal with it. Which is the box Detroit is in now.
The point of having a strong farm system isn't to construct fantasy rosters for what an all-homegrown team might look like three years out. It's to have the resources to make trades for things you need. And the worry here is that Chris Sale wasn't something we needed. Doesn't make it a bad trade. But this is how teams like Detroit become screwed.
Because it's about results, not anxiety level. Kimbrel is one of the very best closers in baseball in terms of results. And that's all that matters.
I'm relieved that in acquiring Sale the Red Sox basically gave up upside. I'm not going to oversell Moncada's K rate when every prospect analyst stressed he was rushed to bigs. He's going to be a stud. Kopech I think becomes a reliever and Basabe is a toolsy lotto ticket. In the end a controllable AB JBJ Mookie OF ,Swihart and Eddie staying around makes this palatable.
I also think it makes the Red Sox a logical place to call for SP help for either Buch Pom or Wright. Getting another reliable bat still necessary.
O and I think Sale is going to loooooove Vazquez. Guy got murdered by bad framers in chitown. But assuming Vaz is playing alot need DH and 3b to not suck.
I also think it makes the Red Sox a logical place to call for SP help for either Buch Pom or Wright. Getting another reliable bat still necessary.
O and I think Sale is going to loooooove Vazquez. Guy got murdered by bad framers in chitown. But assuming Vaz is playing alot need DH and 3b to not suck.
I'm trying to tell you you lack perspective. Yeah, Kimbrel had somewhat of a down year last year, ERA-wise (which we all know is volatile for relief pitchers.) On top of that, it was only "down" for a guy that up until that point had been ONE OF THE BEST RELIEVERS OF ALL TIME. If you want to ignore the numbers, that's on you.
You're glossing over the fact that we now have a ton of SP depth (2 out of Wright, Pomeranz, Buchholz now redundant) from which we could trade to fill other needs.
Only on SoSH could we be upset that the Red Sox had to actually give up talent to acquire the BEST SP in the AL the last 5 years who is 27 years old and locked up through 2019 at an incredibly reasonable rate.
Moncada + Kopech + Basabe + Diaz for Chris Sale. You do that everything single time. EVERY. SINGLE. TIME.
Fantastic move -- will be interesting to see if/what DD does with the seemingly surplus of quality SPs now. Personally, I would rather they hold onto Pomeranz than Buchholz regardless of the limb each uses respectively.
Moncada + Kopech + Basabe + Diaz for Chris Sale. You do that everything single time. EVERY. SINGLE. TIME.
Fantastic move -- will be interesting to see if/what DD does with the seemingly surplus of quality SPs now. Personally, I would rather they hold onto Pomeranz than Buchholz regardless of the limb each uses respectively.
Unload Buchholz and pay up to half of the salary to gain some additional relief under the tax.
I'm going to go back and read this thread, but I'm pretty happy writing off Moncada's signing bonus against the surplus value in Sale's contract. I thought they'd never deal him because of that cash, and that I'd hate them for it if they did. DD means Dealin' Dave, I guess.
Sorry, yeah. Looked at the wrong column for Mariano there, his ERA is 2.2. Still doesn't take away from the point though.
True -- and what we do with that depth is definitely part of the equation. Frankly, at this point, I'd rather try to get a valuable long-term asset for Rodriguez or Pomeranz than dump Buchholz or Wright for a short-term asset (or just to get out from under Clay's contract).
Why would they exercise his option just to pay half his contract to pitch for another team? They value him at his contract.
Do they value him in the bullpen at his current deal? Because there's no way he's in the rotation as it's currently constituted.
I'm guessing DD had an idea he was going to acquire Chris Sale this offseason and still decided to pick up Clay.
Man, forget the EE stuff. Go all in and overpay Turner on a short contract.
He's not a perfect player but he does really fit this team's offensive/defensive needs.
He's not a perfect player but he does really fit this team's offensive/defensive needs.
- Demolishes RHP. (reverse split)
- RH pull hitter/power.
- Lifts the ball. (40% FB in 2016)
- Good defense at 3B
- Neutral baserunner.
- Not overly vulnerable to striking out, decent contact hitter.
I don't want to even talk about trading away Wright. Wright is a solid MLB pitcher making $500K.
Quit asking us if we watch the games, christ. Its condescending and brings no real arguement to the discussion.
Yup. With the qualification that they did due diligence on the medicals. No hindsight due diligence -- we're all walking time bombs. But pillar-to-post on what they could reasonably demand in these circumstances. And if you don't get the info you think you need, you don't do the deal. I trust this has been done.
Exactly. It's much easier to trade Clay Buchholz for something/anything when you have his contractual rights than it is to do so when you don't have him under contract.
Yeah, I'm sure that is why he picked up his option. They picked up his option to give him a fallback choice in the rotation in case he didn't acquire anybody. They have since done so and now he's expendable. He's not a bullpen option at $13.5 million.
And he would be a useful and flexible 6th starter.
How close would Eduardo Rodriguez and Joe Kelly get us to Freddie Freeman?
I'm so down with this approach. Money is money. Keeping the key young 25-man roster talent and being able to add Sale is fantastic. Ft. Meyers, here we come!
Why is everyone worried about the bullpen? With Sale, Price and Porcello, we're only going to need one or two relievers most nights.
The real point is, though, that Sale bumps 5th starter innings with higher quality and higher quantity. This hopefully takes about 40 innings (say 1 1/3 per start over 30 starts or so) out of the bullpen and into the rotation. So this trade improves the "bullpen" as it was earlier this morning by 40 really good innings.
The real point is, though, that Sale bumps 5th starter innings with higher quality and higher quantity. This hopefully takes about 40 innings (say 1 1/3 per start over 30 starts or so) out of the bullpen and into the rotation. So this trade improves the "bullpen" as it was earlier this morning by 40 really good innings.
Well, Soxprospects as well but point is taken.
Interesting that Cameron's FG post this summer about Sale for Moncada/Kopech being a fair deal was based on Moncada being the #1/#2 prospect in baseball. If Moncada falls from that - e.g., he strikes out 30+% of the time next season - this could be a steal for the Red Sox.
No, the point of having a strong farm system isn't to trade it all to fill holes that come up during the season. It's to develop cheap talent that you can keep for a longer time than most free agents are worth. And you can't plan that x, y, or z is going to happen, so we need to set some prospects aside to overpay to fill a hole. Again, what does this team need that they can actually plan for heading into next season? If you build a good enough team up front, with minor league depth, you don't need to plug those holes by getting ripped off in a midseason trade.
Teams like Detroit get screwed by trading away ALL of their good prospects and having nothing left. It's not like Devers and Groome and a few others are chopped liver.
Top 5 starters in the American League in BB/9, last year:
1. Tomlin 1.03
2. Porcello 1.29
3. Tanaka 1.62
4. Sale 1.79
5. Price 1.96
In FIP they are 2, 3, and 8.
1. Tomlin 1.03
2. Porcello 1.29
3. Tanaka 1.62
4. Sale 1.79
5. Price 1.96
In FIP they are 2, 3, and 8.
The Dodgers are reportedly offering 5/85 for Turner. I don't see the Red Sox prying him away for more than that -- and it might take a significant amount if that 5/85 represents some kind of hometown discount.
I'll go on a limb and guess he's one of our starting 5 or they trade him away without eating any of the contract.
I've been on the Turner > EE train from the beginning, but do we really think he will come on a short contract? 13 WAR, 136 OPS+ over the last three years as LAD #3 hitter.
If Chapman and Jansen are really getting $80M or more, I don't see how Turner gets less than that.
So who is he overtaking? Pomeranz is under control for much longer so nope. Rodriguez is obviously going to get every chance to stay in the rotation. The logical choice is Buchholz.
If somebody takes Buchholz's whole contract, great. I just don't expect that will happen.
I think they are willing to live with (hope for) league average play from Sandoval. The money line has to be drawn somewhere; and if we assume that Sandoval is untradeable, then I dont see the team paying two 3rdBmen big $$$.
I saw MLBTR predicted that amount/length (and that's all it was, nothing specific about actual terms they are discussing), but now they have a note saying Turner is going to get less than that from the Dodgers.
I'm not so thrilled with spending a lot of money/years on him. I'd like to see it limited to 3 years/$50M or something because hopefully Devers would be ready at that point.
Sale remains healthy and it's hard to argue with this one. As much as I like prospects there is risk both ways -- Sale declines/is hurt vs prospect development. Add to that the present/future calculation and the context of the roster that has a lot of young, cost controlled players and it makes a lot of sense.
It's a shame the ChiSox were asking so much midseason.
It's a shame the ChiSox were asking so much midseason.
I get you are a big Buchholz guy, but he is most likely gone in a year and adding more prospects simple to add more prospects isn't really a pressing need (imo) if it is ultimately taking away from the MLB roster.
Besides, there is always a decent chance you just end up having to turn around and make the reverse trade a year or 2 from now. With no guarantees that it plays out to be a push in our favor.
The good news is that contracts drop off fast.
in 2 years Hanley and Price could be off the books and the year after you see Sale, Panda and Porcello.
so the money will be there, and Otani will also not longer be subject to the international limits then...
but yes it will take some creativity on this team once these next 3 years are done.
It's a balance of either balancing the books, or balancing the farm system and rotation (4 lefties vs 3).
Things always play out some way or another where Buchholz will be in line to make plenty of starts. I tend to think Pomeranz will be in the rotation but half the people on SoSH already have him in the bullpen. I'm also guessing the SP other teams would want and give up actual value for is EdRod and given we already have 3 other lefties in the rotation, he seems a likely trade candidate.
Eh, I think they needed him in the ALDS. And maybe to get homefield. And that they'd have had him but Chicago didn't want to do the deal - Kopech didn't have his fall league results yet.
So really what I am saying is that Michael Kopech cost us the World Series. Good riddance!
pretty sure i didnt make that comparison, but ill let you drag this out.
With real, actual numbers to back it up? Yeah, I was sure being condescending. You can stop any time now.