Cora: Pivetta is going to the bullpen as a multi-inning reliever

[Pedroia's Itchy Nose]

That's what I thinking in the Oakland game where he struck out 13 in relief...."he has turned into Pedro as a long reliever".

He's done it against everyone too, it was just the most ridiculous against that A's lineup. It is obviously not sustainable, but even if he regresses to a 3.50-4.00 guy who can give you 5-6 after an opener, we'd take that all year long.

Regardless, it has been fun to watch. The hitters genuinely look clueless up there against him for the most part right now.

Exactly -- a 3.5-4 ERA guy with an average of 5+ innings per start is a perfectly servicable #3 and an excellent #4-5. If Pivetta can keep that up (let alone what he is actually doing now), the Red Sox could likely withstand not getting some of Sale, Whitlock, or Houck back. The fact that he does it after an opener is irrelevant. It's still going to be a slog to get into the postseason, but one can't really reasonably complain about the rotation.

 

[Archer1979]

Just ask Tim Lollar...

https://www.baseball-almanac.com/box-scores/boxscore.php?boxid=198608100DET

For those that want to know what I meant about Tim Lollar, I remember this game (37 year-old details filled in by the box score) from 1986. It was a Sunday afternoon and I was supposed to mow my grandfather's lawn but decided to watch the game and then mow. Clemens started against the Tigers in Detroit. Sox were cruising with a four run lead when Detroit cut the lead to two runs in the fifth with an Alan Trammell two-run home run. Clemens made it through six and handed the game over to Tim Lollar in the seventh still up two runs. Lollar promptly allowed the first three Tigers on followed by a grand slam by Darrell Evans. Detroit up by two as Lollar got the next three out to finish the inning. I'm guessing the thinking was that Lollar couldn't screw up the game any more than he did so McNamara didn't make a call to the pen. At that point, I decide to mow my grandfather's lawn and listen to the game on an old yellow transistor radio that I used to have.

So... I'm mowing. Sox turn around in the the top of the eighth and score five, highlighted by a Rich Gedman grand slam. Big yard, long inning so I'm still mowing when the Sox bring in young Calvin Schiraldi (as Vin Scully called him during the '86 World Series) to get the final out.

Still mowing.

Post-game show is on and I'm listening to the highlights (from I think Coleman and Castiglione). Post-game flips to the studio and they start talking about how Tim Lollar thought he had vultured a win only for the scorekeeper to invoke the rarely used ineffective pitcher clause (in bold below) that no one had referenced until that day. In other words, Tim Lollar...



On the other hand, I finished mowing and my dad was grilling steaks.

Good Sunday afternoon.

https://www.mlb.com/glossary/standard-stats/win

Win (W)
Definition
A pitcher receives a win when he is the pitcher of record when his team takes the lead for good -- with a couple rare exceptions. First, a starting pitcher must pitch at least five innings (in a traditional game of nine innings or longer) to qualify for the win. If he does not, the official scorer awards the win to the most effective relief pitcher.

There is also a rarely used clause where an official scorer can deem a relief pitcher's appearance "brief and ineffective." (For example, if a reliever relinquished a one-run lead by allowing three runs, but was still in line for a win after his team scored four runs in the following inning -- that may qualify.) If that's the case, the scorer can award the win to a pitcher who followed that "brief and ineffective" pitcher. Which relief pitcher earns the win specifically is also up to the judgment of the official scorer.

Postscript... Lollar was out of baseball after 1986. However, he did go 2 - 0 and finished with a batting average of 1.000 when he was used as a pinch hitter and got a single.

 

[beautokyo]

https://www.baseball-almanac.com/box-scores/boxscore.php?boxid=198608100DET

For those that want to know what I meant about Tim Lollar, I remember this game (37 year-old details filled in by the box score) from 1986. It was a Sunday afternoon and I was supposed to mow my grandfather's lawn but decided to watch the game and then mow. Clemens started against the Tigers in Detroit. Sox were cruising with a four run lead when Detroit cut the lead to two runs in the fifth with an Alan Trammell two-run home run. Clemens made it through six and handed the game over to Tim Lollar in the seventh still up two runs. Lollar promptly allowed the first three Tigers on followed by a grand slam by Darrell Evans. Detroit up by two as Lollar got the next three out to finish the inning. I'm guessing the thinking was that Lollar couldn't screw up the game any more than he did so McNamara didn't make a call to the pen. At that point, I decide to mow my grandfather's lawn and listen to the game on an old yellow transistor radio that I used to have.

So... I'm mowing. Sox turn around in the the top of the eighth and score five, highlighted by a Rich Gedman grand slam. Big yard, long inning so I'm still mowing when the Sox bring in young Calvin Schiraldi (as Vin Scully called him during the '86 World Series) to get the final out.

Still mowing.

Post-game show is on and I'm listening to the highlights (from I think Coleman and Castiglione). Post-game flips to the studio and they start talking about how Tim Lollar thought he had vultured a win only for the scorekeeper to invoke the rarely used ineffective pitcher clause (in bold below) that no one had referenced until that day. In other words, Tim Lollar...

View attachment 68117

On the other hand, I finished mowing and my dad was grilling steaks.

Good Sunday afternoon.

https://www.mlb.com/glossary/standard-stats/win



Postscript... Lollar was out of baseball after 1986. However, he did go 2 - 0 and finished with a batting average of 1.000 when he was used as a pinch hitter and got a single.

So who was credited with the win? Clemens?

 

[Tony Pena's Gas Cloud]

https://www.baseball-almanac.com/box-scores/boxscore.php?boxid=198608100DET

For those that want to know what I meant about Tim Lollar, I remember this game (37 year-old details filled in by the box score) from 1986. It was a Sunday afternoon and I was supposed to mow my grandfather's lawn but decided to watch the game and then mow. Clemens started against the Tigers in Detroit. Sox were cruising with a four run lead when Detroit cut the lead to two runs in the fifth with an Alan Trammell two-run home run. Clemens made it through six and handed the game over to Tim Lollar in the seventh still up two runs. Lollar promptly allowed the first three Tigers on followed by a grand slam by Darrell Evans. Detroit up by two as Lollar got the next three out to finish the inning. I'm guessing the thinking was that Lollar couldn't screw up the game any more than he did so McNamara didn't make a call to the pen. At that point, I decide to mow my grandfather's lawn and listen to the game on an old yellow transistor radio that I used to have.

So... I'm mowing. Sox turn around in the the top of the eighth and score five, highlighted by a Rich Gedman grand slam. Big yard, long inning so I'm still mowing when the Sox bring in young Calvin Schiraldi (as Vin Scully called him during the '86 World Series) to get the final out.

Still mowing.

Post-game show is on and I'm listening to the highlights (from I think Coleman and Castiglione). Post-game flips to the studio and they start talking about how Tim Lollar thought he had vultured a win only for the scorekeeper to invoke the rarely used ineffective pitcher clause (in bold below) that no one had referenced until that day. In other words, Tim Lollar...

View attachment 68117

On the other hand, I finished mowing and my dad was grilling steaks.

Good Sunday afternoon.

https://www.mlb.com/glossary/standard-stats/win



Postscript... Lollar was out of baseball after 1986. However, he did go 2 - 0 and finished with a batting average of 1.000 when he was used as a pinch hitter and got a single.

Not to get too off topic, but here's a scenario where I've never been able to find a straight answer for. Just as a for instance, say this is the box score:
Away 000 232 000
Home 441 000 000

Home team pitchers:
A: 3 IP, 0 ER
B: 3 IP, 7 ER
C: 3 IP, 0 ER
Does Pitcher C automatically have to get the save and pitcher B automatically get the win? Can the official scorer invoke this "ineffective" rule and award the win to pitcher C instead? Pitcher B was by far the least effective of the three and was solely the reason that the game was close in the late innings. It stands to reason that Pitcher C should earn the win for being the most effective. Has this ever happened?

 

[Archer1979]

So who was credited with the win? Clemens?

Joe Sambito.

Not to get too off topic, but here's a scenario where I've never been able to find a straight answer for. Just as a for instance, say this is the box score:
Away 000 232 000
Home 441 000 000

Home team pitchers:
A: 3 IP, 0 ER
B: 3 IP, 7 ER
C: 3 IP, 0 ER
Does Pitcher C automatically have to get the save and pitcher B automatically get the win? Can the official scorer invoke this "ineffective" rule and award the win to pitcher C instead? Pitcher B was by far the least effective of the three and was solely the reason that the game was close in the late innings. It stands to reason that Pitcher C should earn the win for being the most effective. Has this ever happened?

At that point it's scorekeeper's discretion. I would give pitcher C the Win. Based on this:

" First, a starting pitcher must pitch at least five innings (in a traditional game of nine innings or longer) to qualify for the win. If he does not, the official scorer awards the win to the most effective relief pitcher. "

 

[soxhop411]

Not to get too off topic, but here's a scenario where I've never been able to find a straight answer for. Just as a for instance, say this is the box score:
Away 000 232 000
Home 441 000 000

Home team pitchers:
A: 3 IP, 0 ER
B: 3 IP, 7 ER
C: 3 IP, 0 ER
Does Pitcher C automatically have to get the save and pitcher B automatically get the win? Can the official scorer invoke this "ineffective" rule and award the win to pitcher C instead? Pitcher B was by far the least effective of the three and was solely the reason that the game was close in the late innings. It stands to reason that Pitcher C should earn the win for being the most effective. Has this ever happened?

there was a Game Like this last season with the White Sox) and one of the blogs that covers the team had a whole writeup about the obscure rule
https://www.soxon35th.com/this-unique-baseball-rule-gave-tanner-banks-the-win-in-detroit/

 

[pgeyer13]

Joe Sambito.



At that point it's scorekeeper's discretion. I would give pitcher C the Win. Based on this:

" First, a starting pitcher must pitch at least five innings (in a traditional game of nine innings or longer) to qualify for the win. If he does not, the official scorer awards the win to the most effective relief pitcher. "

I can smell the grass.
Fun story Archer

 

[RG33]

https://www.baseball-almanac.com/box-scores/boxscore.php?boxid=198608100DET

For those that want to know what I meant about Tim Lollar, I remember this game (37 year-old details filled in by the box score) from 1986. It was a Sunday afternoon and I was supposed to mow my grandfather's lawn but decided to watch the game and then mow. Clemens started against the Tigers in Detroit. Sox were cruising with a four run lead when Detroit cut the lead to two runs in the fifth with an Alan Trammell two-run home run. Clemens made it through six and handed the game over to Tim Lollar in the seventh still up two runs. Lollar promptly allowed the first three Tigers on followed by a grand slam by Darrell Evans. Detroit up by two as Lollar got the next three out to finish the inning. I'm guessing the thinking was that Lollar couldn't screw up the game any more than he did so McNamara didn't make a call to the pen. At that point, I decide to mow my grandfather's lawn and listen to the game on an old yellow transistor radio that I used to have.

So... I'm mowing. Sox turn around in the the top of the eighth and score five, highlighted by a Rich Gedman grand slam. Big yard, long inning so I'm still mowing when the Sox bring in young Calvin Schiraldi (as Vin Scully called him during the '86 World Series) to get the final out.

Still mowing.

Post-game show is on and I'm listening to the highlights (from I think Coleman and Castiglione). Post-game flips to the studio and they start talking about how Tim Lollar thought he had vultured a win only for the scorekeeper to invoke the rarely used ineffective pitcher clause (in bold below) that no one had referenced until that day. In other words, Tim Lollar...

View attachment 68117

On the other hand, I finished mowing and my dad was grilling steaks.

Good Sunday afternoon.

https://www.mlb.com/glossary/standard-stats/win



Postscript... Lollar was out of baseball after 1986. However, he did go 2 - 0 and finished with a batting average of 1.000 when he was used as a pinch hitter and got a single.

Great story. I can vividly remember being super excited and running to get my Dad when Lollar was used as a pinch hitter. It was obviously such a rarity to see in the AL, and such a rare move by a Manager. If my memory serves, he lined a base bit up the middle in that at bat.

 

[Red(s)HawksFan]

Great story. I can vividly remember being super excited and running to get my Dad when Lollar was used as a pinch hitter. It was obviously such a rarity to see in the AL, and such a rare move by a Manager. If my memory serves, he lined a base bit up the middle in that at bat.

It was a single up the middle. The absolute craziest part about it, as I just learned looking at the box score, is that Lollar wasn't used because the bench was empty. After he reached, Ed Romero pinch ran for him. That means John McNamara looked at his bench, saw Ed Romero, Dave Stapleton and Marc Sullivan sitting there (I assume because I know they were on the team but they don't show up in the box score), and called down to the bullpen for a pinch hitter instead. Just nuts.

 

[RG33]

It was a single up the middle. The absolute craziest part about it, as I just learned looking at the box score, is that Lollar wasn't used because the bench was empty. After he reached, Ed Romero pinch ran for him. That means John McNamara looked at his bench, saw Ed Romero, Dave Stapleton and Marc Sullivan sitting there (I assume because I know they were on the team but they don't show up in the box score), and called down to the bullpen for a pinch hitter instead. Just nuts.

Yeah, that was the cool part - that Lollar was perceived as a pretty good hitter, and then he laced one up the middle. Looks like he had 8 dingers in 255 ABs while in the NL — so the guy could knock it around the park a bit.

Yet another unconventional move by Johnny Mac that worked out great. . . . <ducks>

 

[Tony Pena's Gas Cloud]

there was a Game Like this last season with the White Sox) and one of the blogs that covers the team had a whole writeup about the obscure rule
https://www.soxon35th.com/this-unique-baseball-rule-gave-tanner-banks-the-win-in-detroit/

Cool, thanks for the info.

 

[chrisfont9]

https://www.baseball-almanac.com/box-scores/boxscore.php?boxid=198608100DET

For those that want to know what I meant about Tim Lollar, I remember this game (37 year-old details filled in by the box score) from 1986. It was a Sunday afternoon and I was supposed to mow my grandfather's lawn but decided to watch the game and then mow. Clemens started against the Tigers in Detroit. Sox were cruising with a four run lead when Detroit cut the lead to two runs in the fifth with an Alan Trammell two-run home run. Clemens made it through six and handed the game over to Tim Lollar in the seventh still up two runs. Lollar promptly allowed the first three Tigers on followed by a grand slam by Darrell Evans. Detroit up by two as Lollar got the next three out to finish the inning. I'm guessing the thinking was that Lollar couldn't screw up the game any more than he did so McNamara didn't make a call to the pen. At that point, I decide to mow my grandfather's lawn and listen to the game on an old yellow transistor radio that I used to have.

So... I'm mowing. Sox turn around in the the top of the eighth and score five, highlighted by a Rich Gedman grand slam. Big yard, long inning so I'm still mowing when the Sox bring in young Calvin Schiraldi (as Vin Scully called him during the '86 World Series) to get the final out.

Still mowing.

Post-game show is on and I'm listening to the highlights (from I think Coleman and Castiglione). Post-game flips to the studio and they start talking about how Tim Lollar thought he had vultured a win only for the scorekeeper to invoke the rarely used ineffective pitcher clause (in bold below) that no one had referenced until that day. In other words, Tim Lollar...

View attachment 68117

On the other hand, I finished mowing and my dad was grilling steaks.

Good Sunday afternoon.

https://www.mlb.com/glossary/standard-stats/win



Postscript... Lollar was out of baseball after 1986. However, he did go 2 - 0 and finished with a batting average of 1.000 when he was used as a pinch hitter and got a single.

OMG! That is an incredible story and I'm glad you circled back to explain. Also Tim Lollar is a name I had completely forgotten. Nice little career I guess.

bREF says the Sox paid him 700k in 1987, his highest salary ever, to go fishing or whatever. Nice retirement cash!

 

[chrisfont9]

So if everyone is healthy at some point, we are back to the rotation roster crunch we were obsessing over for a month or so? I have to think that Pivetta stays put and does a split game with one of the returning guys, whoever they want to limit the innings for. My candidate would be Whitlock, but tbd and not really a judgment call, just who is the least stretched out.

 

[JM3]

Anyone want to watch a 17 minute video on Nick Pivetta's sweeper?

View: https://twitter.com/LanceBroz/status/1687553744555134976