Cutting the Cord Early. How Have the Sox Done?
- Thread starter Ale Xander
- Start date
Well, Manny got caught with roids in 2009. The Red Sox must have known something.
Sure. 252/337/388 is not terrible, especially for a SS. But of course, Kike is a FA after this year and Xander has a huge contract for 10 more seasons.
In every sport, the batting average for cutting the cord early is not 1.000, but it still makes Ted Williams look like Sandy Leon.
Not necessarily. There was... a lot going on around the time of his departure.
And then got popped for steroids while Bay finished 7th in mvp voting in 2009. And then the Sox smartly let him walk at the right time as well. Also ignoring the part where swapping out Bay for Manny somehow just gives them 2 more rings because reasons
Bay for the Red Sox in 2008-2009: 7.1 WAR
Ramirez for the Dodgers in 2008-2009: 5.7 WAR
Let's not forget that Manny was traded because he wanted out. In the weeks before the trade, he was begging out of games because his knee hurt and he couldn't even keep straight which knee it was. Then he was magically all better once he hit L.A. and tore the cover off the ball. That trade not happening would not have resulted in a World Series title in 2008 or 2009.
and pushed traveling secretary Jack McCormick
https://www.boston.com/sports/extra-bases/2008/06/30/manny_ramirez_w/
Yeah, that’s the one for me. Otherwise everything else was worth putting up with.
Credit where credit's due Manny did go on a tear after he was traded. FWIW (maybe not much) he played 25 games in LA and 15 of those within the division.
Arizona 82-80
Colorado 74-88
San Fransisco 72-90
San Diego 63-99
Ramirez had 6.3 bWAR in his 2 seasons with the Dodgers from trade deadline '08 to late August '10 when they waived him & made like $50m (I think?).
Bay had 7.1 bWAR in his 14 months or so in Boston & made like $10m.
Of course, as usual, the Pirates were the biggest loser. They received:
Andy LaRoche 0.4 bWAR
Bryan Morris 0.3 bWAR
Craig Hansen -0.5 bWAR
Brandon Moss -3.2 bWAR
Theo Epstein put Manny on irrevocable waivers to prove to John Henry that not only was Manny difficult to trade, you couldn't even give him away!
Topics stray, the conversation is both fine and interesting.
For a deeper dive, a new thread would be called for. Feel free, anyone, to start one, I';d definitely read it. I'd break out but gotta go and running late.
For a deeper dive, a new thread would be called for. Feel free, anyone, to start one, I';d definitely read it. I'd break out but gotta go and running late.
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The Sox didn't exactly pull the plug on Damon. The Yankees offered him a bit more (don't remember the number exactly, but it seems to me is was in the range of $1 - $3 million), and he jumped ship. I think he pulled a similar stunt on KC when signing with the Sox in the first place
That was Oakland, where he played for one year (it's in the beginning of the Moneyball movie too).
Several players were offered more either in years or money and the Sox let them walk. Damon to the Yankees. Pedro to the Mets. And back on topic Xander to the Padres.
Manny was different because he wanted out and it was well rumored that Boras was manipulating things because he would not get any comissions if his two extensions were picked up.
There's a better argument for a ring in 2008 than there is for 2009. If we are citing MVP voting,, Manny finished 4th in MVP voting in 2008. Ed- but the trade was logical, probably
There is no universe where the Red Sox would have had Manny in 2009. His contract was up in 2008 and he never would have re-signed. There may be an option that I'm forgetting, but I doubt the Sox would have wanted him back after how '08 played out.
All I have to say is: I miss prime Manny. Guy was super fun to watch, and was one of the best hitters I've ever seen. Over 8 seasons, he gave Boston this:
274 hr, 868 rbi, .312/.411/.588/.999, 155 ops+, 33.2 bWAR, 8 all-star appearances, and 2 World Series championships
274 hr, 868 rbi, .312/.411/.588/.999, 155 ops+, 33.2 bWAR, 8 all-star appearances, and 2 World Series championships
There 100% was an option, for 2009 and 2010. It was the existence of those options that prompted Manny to effectively shoot his way out of town. He'd signed with Boras and Boras wanted a cut, which he wasn't going to get if the Sox picked up the options. So part of the trade, since Manny had 10/5 rights, was the Dodgers agreeing to turn down the options and let him be a free agent following the 2008 season.
Sometimes I forget just how much I abhor Scott Boras. I should stop doing that.
I miss more than just Manny. I miss the days of more consistent year to year personnel and less roster turnover. Of being invested in the players and the team on a deeper level over a longer period of time. Short term, year to year contracts may make good business, and even baseball, sense. But there is nothing engaging about it.All I have to say is: I miss prime Manny. Guy was super fun to watch, and was one of the best hitters I've ever seen. Over 8 seasons, he gave Boston this:
274 hr, 868 rbi, .312/.411/.588/.999, 155 ops+, 33.2 bWAR, 8 all-star appearances, and 2 World Series championships
Get off my lawn?!
That's how you operate when you have nothing to elevate through the ranks. Things are looking more hopeful
All I have to say is: I miss prime Manny. Guy was super fun to watch, and was one of the best hitters I've ever seen. Over 8 seasons, he gave Boston this:
274 hr, 868 rbi, .312/.411/.588/.999, 155 ops+, 33.2 bWAR, 8 all-star appearances, and 2 World Series championships
Probably the greatest moment in baseball history.
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Md8j_Sq5Nbs
Wait, what?!? I've always loved this play, but I did not remember that Kevin Millar was the batter! You can't make this stuff up!!
(Okay, I've already used my quota of exclamation points for June.)
Imagine if a wide receiver caught a sideline pass, ran towards the sideline seemingly to go out of bounds, but then high-fived the chain crew guy without ever stepping out of bounds, back-cut past a charging tackler, picked up a couple blocks from fellow WRs, and scored a touchdown? That would be the play of the century (the Stanford band play being the play of the century from the 20th century).
[Yes, I know touching someone out of bounds makes the ball carrier out of bounds by rule.]
[Yes, I know touching someone out of bounds makes the ball carrier out of bounds by rule.]
Yeah, I forgot he was in Oakland; didn't bother to look it up. I thought Damon took the heat from Sox fans on that one, because he sold us out for pennies on the dollar. In any case, I think we just have different perspectives on this one.
Back to Xander. The Padres offered way too much for him. It's really too bad he chose Boras as his agent, or the Sox might(?) have been able to do a reasonable extension.
What do you mean "pennies on the dollar"? Damon had three main suitors in free agency: Sox, Yankees, Dodgers. The Dodgers went with Kenny Lofton instead. The Yankees gave Damon a fourth year and a guarantee that he'd be the starting center fielder. Justifiably, the Sox were not willing to give a fourth year with Ellsbury waiting in the wings. Like most free agents, he took the best deal.
I'm not sure how that's "selling out for pennies on the dollar".
So, in your opinion, then, did the Sox let Damon walk, or did they simply make a rational business decision? Do you believe that there's a difference between the two?
The only one cutting the cord when Manny left was Manny. Sox simply had enough of a player who didn't want to play.
And for all the talk of cutting the cord early, its more than outweighed by getting overly enamored with other team's players and paying way too much... for example... Crawford, Sandoval, etc.
In other words, Free Agency is a crap shoot both when letting players go and signing other team's free agents.
And for all the talk of cutting the cord early, its more than outweighed by getting overly enamored with other team's players and paying way too much... for example... Crawford, Sandoval, etc.
In other words, Free Agency is a crap shoot both when letting players go and signing other team's free agents.
Had to reply to this one given the quote in my signature. IIRC the anger towards Damon came because of where he signed, and what he had stated publicly before signing there. (see below)
When it comes to free agents, teams don't "let players walk". Players sign wherever they choose.
I don’t necessarily miss what you’re describing, but what I do miss is the days when I could just be excited about getting a new player - like I was when they signed Manny - instead of immediately switching into hyper-analytical mode, which always leads to this “yeah, but look at all those years and dollars!!!” mindset.
I was going to say that people would be aghast at the Manny deal nowadays, and I think that is true, but I also remember a lot of people saying they were against it at the time. And I've also noticed a growing segment of baseball fans who are in favor of teams spending more of their money these days. But I still think people would savage the 2023 equivalent of a Manny deal. "He doesn't play defense, going to be ugly when he turns 35!"
Cross posting
Just wanted to point out that Wacha and Eovaldi are a combined 14-4, 2.67 ERA in 148.1 IP over 24 starts (nearly 6.1 IP per start).
Seems to me the 2023 Red Sox might be pretty good if they had that kind of performance at the top of the rotation.
Just wanted to point out that Wacha and Eovaldi are a combined 14-4, 2.67 ERA in 148.1 IP over 24 starts (nearly 6.1 IP per start).
Seems to me the 2023 Red Sox might be pretty good if they had that kind of performance at the top of the rotation.
Cross posting as well: did you know they would be so good and Rich Hill wouldn’t be?
If you predicted those two would still be good I will be your biggest supporter here for future predictions.
if you are posting hindsight Got Ya‘s in multiple threads, I withdraw my support.