It‘s Bill Campbell, who had his best year in 77. Not sure Boomer, Rooster and Lynn were very deserving all stars.
I was going to say Dewey should have gone instead of Lynn, but he only played 79 games.
Dan Shaughnessy: Taking a dump in your mouth one column at a time
- Thread starter weeba
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I was going to say Dewey should have gone instead of Lynn, but he only played 79 games.
I thought is was Soup, but the open web glove threw me off. That must have been his batting practice shag mit.
Seems he has been mailing it in for years now.
Just rage/shitposts to get all the doomers riled up about why _____ team in boston sucks.
To the extent sports are content - though content+tribalism - isn’t it natural for interest to decline in the face of so damn much new, faster, more accessible content.
Certainly. There are a bajillion things to watch or listen to, or go out and do, that weren't available 30 years ago. The current iteration of "baseball is dying" folks are basically talking about baseball becoming less relevant. The teams are worth increasing billions, players are making ridiculous fortunes, there are certainly still fans in the stands and watching on TV. But it's not even the 1980s or 90s when baseball was a big cultural force and more eyeballs were watching. Here's the thing though: so what? The sport isn't going away. Why does it matter if there are 30,000 fans in the stands or 20,000. They're going to play games as long as there's any money to be made.
Shaughnessy is from a generation when it really mattered if whatever you liked was the same as whatever everyone else liked. And the way to control that was endlessly pump up your stuff and dump on the other stuff. The man is still living in 1985. Maybe he has to because his audience is still living then with him and he's writing for them. At this point he's sort of a curiosity. A man still writing this stuff? And there are people who read it on actual pages of physical paper? In 2023? In a way it's sort of fascinating. But in a much bigger way I wish he would fuck off and retire already.
Sadly it seems like Pete Abraham, is ready to take up the mantel once Dan retires...
Why do you say this? Abraham isn't anywhere near the muck-raker that Shaughnessy is--mainly because that's not his job. Also his job isn't to be a cheerleader for the team either. He's a really solid reporter.
'Oddly enough, he looks like a slow-pitch softball player after he backed up a couple of steps. Given his arsenal,. it might have been a self-defense mechanism to keep his head from getting torn off.
View: https://twitter.com/PeteAbe/status/1668824649776390144
Lets start with this lazy ass tweet
It would take Pete like 10 seconds of Searching Soxprospects or any scouting site to show how asinine the first bolded "hot take" is especially when there is one in the rotation this season...
Re the second bolded. Calling your customers "part of the problem" is not a smart way to get people to continue to pay for your product or support you... especially in a field that (journalism) that has been hemorrhaging money for years because people no longer subscribe to newspapers
People do not take kindly to being called idiots/stupid...
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I'm not entirely sure that this is true especially in the context of a Shank thread. This has been Shank's go to stance since he lost his Curse of the Bambino gravy train.
It's all in the context. I actually like Bello and expect him to improve to be a possible number one starter, so he might already be counting Bello as entrenched on the major-league roster,
Sox's track record in developing impact starters is about one/two a decade so he might be counting on Bello being this decades' entrant..
Looking at SoxProspects Top Ten, (I actually took the ten seconds, actually more
), if Drohan (mid-2024), Mata (late 2023 but having shoulder issues), and Perales (mid-2026) all reach their potential, best case, you might see at least Drohan and Mata making an impact in the rotation in 2024 (and projections tend to be optimistic). Odds are that something happens in the minors that prevents at least one from ever reaching the major league level (much less a 2-3 starter). In other words, he might be looking at this pessimistically but its not an unrealistic take especially if you're trying to find a 2 - 3 starter.
The last line -- "part of the problem" -- proves once and for all that the Globe has now fully integrated the idea that its competitors are those media outlets that succeed in attracting the angriest "fans." What better way to do that than to call us morons.
"The last 4 seasons" included 2020, which IMO, simply should not count in any sort of analysis like this, unless you think the 1944 St. Louis Browns were one of baseball great teams, but mysteriously sucked most of the rest of the time. It also includes 2021, when they went to the ALCS. If you want to argue that that's still not good enough, go for it. But the "4 years" stuff is barely more than gaslighting.
And not seeing a 2-3 starter? WTF does that even mean. I don't see a "future closer" either. BECAUSE I CAN'T SEE INTO THE FUTURE.
This season, they have Houck, Bello, Whitlock and Crawford in the rotation. I haven't checked my Official Pete Abraham Approved Calendar, but I *think* this season is "before 2025." Not sure about next season, but there's time. And I think it's reasonable to think that one or 2 of those 4 might be a "2 or 3 starter*" "before 2025." Am I positive? No. BECAUSE I CAN'T SEE INTO THE FUTURE. Just ask Jason Isringhausen, Bill Pulsipher, and Paul Wilson. Or Alek Manoah.
*Whatever the hell a "2 or 3 starter" is. Which is the real problem with stuff like this. When you use a term that is undefinable -- or, at a minimum, has no agreed-upon definition -- you can never be wrong.
So who is the number two or three starter in the pipeline prior to 2025? Whitlock might be that guy, but I think he's probably a three at best and he's been with the team for three seasons already. The Sox organization have some good prospects, but none of them are high-end pitchers.
Like I said, Abraham's job isn't to cheerlead the Red Sox and Bloom in particular. If you want that, don't follow him.
And if you've read any of the responses to his tweet or his columns, what he said is showing remarkable restraint.
Thank you for this!! If you criticize the team, you're a hater apparently. I was happy with the hiring of Bloom, but it's abundantly clear that he is not cut out to run the Red Sox. Pete is right--the Red Sox should never be a wait and see down the road team. Save that for Pittsburgh, Cincinnati, and those ilk.
Some AL teams, like TB and Houston are killing it with SPs. But others . . .
BAL's 3rd best starter has a FIP of 4.63. NYY - 4.58; TOR --5.04; TEX 4.31;
Seems to me that some of Whitlock, Bello, Houck and Crawford can fit comfortably in there.
What does this mean? What is the -- presumably optimal -- opposite of "wait and see."
The responses to him are just blind anger and stuff like sneering "CHAIM!!" over and over. At least when I see stuff here I disagree with, I can usually expect a coherent explanation.
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Face it, there's a lot to be negative about.
When Dan and Pete Abe point that out, they aren't necessarily stirring the pot. Yes, Dan is often ridiculous, lazy and looking for clicks, and any notion that this is the worst era in any way is beyond ridiculous.
But Chaim and Henry have presided over this team slipping into mediocrity, and they have given those who follow the team no shortage of talking points.
PS: This thread title deserves mention from time to time. It's among my favorites. Well done!
When Dan and Pete Abe point that out, they aren't necessarily stirring the pot. Yes, Dan is often ridiculous, lazy and looking for clicks, and any notion that this is the worst era in any way is beyond ridiculous.
But Chaim and Henry have presided over this team slipping into mediocrity, and they have given those who follow the team no shortage of talking points.
PS: This thread title deserves mention from time to time. It's among my favorites. Well done!
I am thinking the real "Red Sox Great Depression" peaked somewhere between 1918 and 2004. We now have actual expectations and a track record. This is fairly new in Red Sox history. I got into the team as a child around 1995-96, I had a sweet poster of Mo Vaughn and Jose Canseco looking jacked.
There was a real turning point in 2010. If we recall, there was a 2 week stretch where half of the starting line up and pitching staff got injured and really derailed the season. The team was OK that year, but the injuries were too tough to overcome. There was a sense that the team would make a big splash in 2011 - which they did. We all know what happened, but this kicked off a decade of break-neck failures and successes in rapid fashion:
2011 - Epstein Era. Greatest Team Ever fails to make playoffs
2012 - Tito canned and smeared on his way out of town. Bobby V. Punto Trade
2013 - Ben Cherington Era. Surprise Championship with the "core" intact (Pedey, Papi, Lester, Ellsbury) laced with good veteran signings
2014 - Terrible. Bogaerts first full season
2015 - Also bad. Bogie, JBJ, Mookie knocking on the door
2016 - Dombrowski era. David Price and Craig Kimbrel acquired. Playoffs
2017 - Still improving. Sale trade happens. Farm system takes a big step back after multiple trades. Playoffs
2018 - World Series and a great team wire-to-wire
2019 - Cracks starting to show, team gets off to bad start and is unable to turn it around
2020 - COVID year. Betts traded. Start of Bloom Era
2021 - Good team, shrewd FA signings, gets to ALCS. Playoffs
2022 - Bad team, Xander on the way out, juggling payroll in order to stay under luxury tax
2023 - Team looks, well, average. Lots of flexibility after the season, farm system ticking back up
All of this is to say, the last decade has seen 3 administrations. In that time, there have been changes to the draft and new technologies for player development. The way to build a championship team has changed, and the Red Sox are living through the growing pains of that. 2020 was truly starting from scratch in my opinion. Its been a grind for the last few seasons, no doubt. They are building the plane as they are flying it.
Frankly the bad times make the good times even better. I like following the farm system and watching the journey.
There was a real turning point in 2010. If we recall, there was a 2 week stretch where half of the starting line up and pitching staff got injured and really derailed the season. The team was OK that year, but the injuries were too tough to overcome. There was a sense that the team would make a big splash in 2011 - which they did. We all know what happened, but this kicked off a decade of break-neck failures and successes in rapid fashion:
2011 - Epstein Era. Greatest Team Ever fails to make playoffs
2012 - Tito canned and smeared on his way out of town. Bobby V. Punto Trade
2013 - Ben Cherington Era. Surprise Championship with the "core" intact (Pedey, Papi, Lester, Ellsbury) laced with good veteran signings
2014 - Terrible. Bogaerts first full season
2015 - Also bad. Bogie, JBJ, Mookie knocking on the door
2016 - Dombrowski era. David Price and Craig Kimbrel acquired. Playoffs
2017 - Still improving. Sale trade happens. Farm system takes a big step back after multiple trades. Playoffs
2018 - World Series and a great team wire-to-wire
2019 - Cracks starting to show, team gets off to bad start and is unable to turn it around
2020 - COVID year. Betts traded. Start of Bloom Era
2021 - Good team, shrewd FA signings, gets to ALCS. Playoffs
2022 - Bad team, Xander on the way out, juggling payroll in order to stay under luxury tax
2023 - Team looks, well, average. Lots of flexibility after the season, farm system ticking back up
All of this is to say, the last decade has seen 3 administrations. In that time, there have been changes to the draft and new technologies for player development. The way to build a championship team has changed, and the Red Sox are living through the growing pains of that. 2020 was truly starting from scratch in my opinion. Its been a grind for the last few seasons, no doubt. They are building the plane as they are flying it.
Frankly the bad times make the good times even better. I like following the farm system and watching the journey.
Not facing that at all. The sport is in great shape, the Sox are reloading, I've been to or watched multiple parades, and I can point to 25 franchises who would trade places with the Sox in a heartbeat. Also being older and having kids, and watching some of their friends moving in the direction of pro ball... I just like watching young athletes do amazing things and don't have to just shit all over them the second they fail to live up to my "need" for them to succeed.
If you want to hold them to a standard of succeeding (e.g. making the playoffs) every year, be my guest, but it's not realistic. I'm happy that they have figured out a path to the next title, and am here for the ride.
I think the second and third wild card spots are a big change to the game as well. I can see why they were added as it does make baseball more exciting for teams not used to being in playoff contention every year. And I know this is a First World problem, but the Sox aren't really the intended beneficiary of that. On the one hand, it's great to make the playoffs. On the other hand it lulls you into a false sense that your team is good even when you're on .500 pace. When the Sox are good, I look forward to every series... the better the team, the more I look forward to it (for example, Sox/NYY in 2004 was appointment viewing). Right now, when the Sox play the Rays, I pretty much watch with my hands covering my eyes hoping that they don't fall too far under .500.
Right now, we're a fanbase perpetually looking to compete for the third wild card spot (second if we're lucky).
That might be the Depression that Shank and Abraham are referring to.
I have no confidence at all in Bloom or the team's direction. Some of his moves have worked but many of his decisions have been terrible, and I don't see the Sox really competing for a while. I'm not a young fan either and am massively grateful for the good times and the Sox in general. But writers who are paid to evaluate this team and its prospects have plenty of fodder for negativity.
That doesn't excuse the CHB and his own brand of assclown. But this front office is making it easy.
I think any attempt to distill the status of the team into a tweet is, almost by definition, the equivalent of game-threading in a not game thread. Shit-posting.
It means that they should never be in a position where there is a bad enough product on the field that the organization resorts to selling the fans on waiting a couple of seasons for minor league prospects to come and save the day.
I don't see the org as doing that. I see them as putting together a team that can have a result like 2021, while also having a future that they were lacking. It's not like they put out a team designed to win 65 games just to cut payroll and get high draft picks. (*That* should never happen). For a variety of reasons it isn't working at the moment. But just about *every* team -- even the ones the "never should be heres" think the Sox should be more like -- have had similar runs. Just in the AL East, TB, NYY and TOR had runs in the 20-teens in the 80-85 win purgatory. Or another model franchise, like the Braves. I *think* Bloom and ownership are trying to get away from the boomerang years like they (and SF?) were having without being the Astros or Orioles, while not having the assistance of playing in the AL Central.
.
"Never should be in this position" just sounds empty and facile. Perfect for a tweet, but little else.
As of right this second, the Boston Red Sox are in last place in the American League East. Again. They should not be in this position, no matter how much you want to wishcast 2025 or 2026 or 2034.
That is what Abraham and his ilk are tweeting about. If you're looking for more in depth analysis or subtleties, Twitter is not the medium. It's 240 characters, which Abraham usually tweets in between MLB action. Not everyone wants or needs a Fangraph article.
You think it means "last place."
@RedOctober thinks it means something else.
That's the problem with it, IMO.
It's pretty much the same thing; the Red Sox are underachieving and have been for three out of four years.
I did chuckle at the notion that someone is ‘part of the problem’ by ‘being OK with’ the team’s current situation. I am definitely not ‘OK’ with their situation, but even if I was, so what? Would thinking/stating that mean I would be sending bad vibes into the universe? I’d sort of like to think my thoughts about the team’s management mattered to how they managed the team more than not at all, but, yeah.
The phrase does have a certain dramatic flair, though.
The phrase does have a certain dramatic flair, though.
It's all-encompassing. Mediocrity to poor play on the field, fan apathy, waiting for the next wave of prospects to come up(if it happens). They're on a path to miss the playoffs in 4 of the last 5 seasons. When you say put a team on the field that could field results like 2021.....I don't see that type of team this year. I see a team that is just not very good. That 2021 team won 92 games whereas this team is nowhere near that talented. Bloom has built his teams on a lot of question marks that hope to turn into something whether that is starting pitching or position players. Gambling with shortstop and center field defense this year were bad moves for example. Turning a bullpen weapon in Whitlock into a mediocre starter at best is another one.
They're in last place because the AL east is historically good right now. They've essentially been a league average team the last 1.5 seasons, if your argument is that they should never be average for multiple seasons that seems a bit unrealistic.
Oh. That's the reason? The other teams are just too good for the scrappy underdog wittle Wed Sox. Just wait until every other AL East team sucks, then they'll be great!
Well, I completely understand now--carry on then. Great job Red Sox! Great job Bloom!
Dont all teams go through some form of this? Yes, the yankees navigated it slightly better during their last downturn...but over a 4 year span from 2013-2016 they won between 84-87 games were all of 0-1 in the playoffs. The lows for the Red Sox during this downturn are lower, but the high is higher. Were the yanks not a "wait and see in a couple years" type team in 2013 when 6/12 guys with the most plate appearances were all like over the age of 35? That team sucked and was lucky to win 85 games, pythag was 79-83.
I dont begrudge anyone being frustrated with the Red Sox. But I'm also not going to sit here and let Pete Abraham or Shank tell me I'm any worse of a fan than anyone on this board, or part of the problem, because I am ok with seeing what happens in 2 or 3 years. Will I be perpetually ok with it? no, I dont think so. But honestly...maybe I will be? Im 41 years old and dont think any sports fan in the history of sports had it as good as I did in my 20s & 30s. So maybe Ill just relive the glory days on youtube and still be interested in how the sox continue to try to build their team, and not get too bent out of shape if it doesnt work out the way I want it to. Does that make me part of a problem? If it does, I dont really want to be a part of the fanbase that thinks that anyway. Ill add that in no/way/shape/form do I think someone like yourself (clearly extremely frustrated with the Sox/ownership/Bloom) is part of a problem either. End rant.
edit: I dont have it in me to fully edit the above...because the message wouldnt change. But if this came off like I was angrier than intended I want to apologize up front. Shite day at work and the day started with my fridge running at a balmy 61 degrees.
I don't think you were being a dick FTR.
I've said this before, but I think that we're all on the same page here (Bloomers and anti-Bloomites both) in that we want to see the Red Sox do well. How they get to "doing well" and exactly what is "doing well" are left to debate. I mean I see people on the main board very happy that the Sox are at .500 with all of the injuries that they've had. At the same time, some people are pissed that the Sox are at .500 because of the injuries -- they see it as something that was obviously going to happen and there was a chance to avoid this.
I'm not a pessimistic person (and I don't think Peter Abraham is either, Shank definitely) but at the same time, I think that I'm a realist. And if the Sox aren't doing well--and haven't done well in three of the last four seasons--I think that it's okay to ask "WTF is going on here?" and wonder whether Henry still gives a shit, whether Bloom can do the job and whether Cora is the right person to lead them on the field. I don't think that those are bad or mean questions to ask or opinions to have because it's all based on the Red Sox' current record this year and the overall record that the Bloom-led FO has accumulated over the last four seasons. What happened in the past are facts. What is going to happen in the future aren't.
It's great to be optimistic about the future, I'm looking forward to Mayer playing in Boston for a long time, but it's not a slam dunk. Shit happens. And not only that, but it's infinite--anything could happen to Mayer from him being a Hall of Famer to him falling down a flight of stairs tomorrow and being a paraplegic. IDK, I just comment on what I've seen.
I agree those are great questions. I just can't figure out how some people are so sure of the answers.
There's a fundamental difference between, "shit, this is not good," and "this is so obviously going to be not good for so long that it must be that Henry doesn't give a shit; Bloom is not up to the task; Cora should be cut loose." I really dont think anyone saying "Bloom doesn't suck" is also saying "Hey! This season is great!"
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First off thanks for the level headed response to what wasn't exactly a level headed post. WRT the bolded, I completely agree. What annoys me, specifically regarding Bloom, is that so many arent phrasing it as a question the way...the nail is already in his coffin and he is a terrible GM not fit to lead the sox. My point here, and on other threads, is not that Bloom has done amazing things and should definitely lead the Sox for the next decade, but he's done enough to date given various other things discussed ad nauseum that I'd like to give him a bit more slack to see it through.
edit: damnit, or what @joe dokes said!
So the thing is, and you obviously know this, is that I don't agree with that. I'm looking at the results of the last four years at the Major League level and he's headed for last again. This is the third time he's been last. I also don't think his trade record has been good, I think that (from the stories that I've read) is that he's often unsure of himself or he takes to long to make a move. And when he does it's either not really good or, at best, a lateral move. His free agent signings are a little better, but he spends a lot of time picking through garbage and that gets frustrating after a while. Carabis called the Sox "interest kings" and that seems appropriate for how Bloom goes about his business -- "We're totally interested in Player X, but we're not going to go the whole nine yards."
I think that he spends a lot of time telling fans to be patient and wait for the prospects in the farm to develop. But while he's doing that, the ML team stinks and we're still getting charged a lot of money to go to the game. It seems very disingenuous, but I've always felt like that when it comes to teams who believe in The Process philosophy. To me that feels like Ownership playing us all for suckers. YMMV.
Is there a Bloomer signal that gets lit anytime someone posts anything negative about him? FFS.
You don't have to respond to every post.
That's all fair, even if I dont agree with some of the premises underlying the conclusion. But you know what you didn't do? Call me a moron. Or some kind of failure as a fan. That's what Abraham did. So fuck him. (That's my attempt to bring it back to media).
This is straw man garbage. Who is saying they should tank for high draft picks? Pretty sure that idea got debunked on the main board. What the people who are more patient than you are saying, generally speaking, is that it takes time to build a winner these days unless you want to just throw money at all the shiny object free agents -- a strategy with a terrible track record, and not really even an option because there are 30 teams and not everyone wants to sign with one team. Nobody is in favor of the major league team losing, but you can build a winner slowly and effectively, if you have the patience for it, or you can rush in and probably "win the offseason" while prematurely selling off or blocking all of your prospects and almost certainly coming nowhere near a title.
Baseball doesn't work on any other time schedule. If you want a deep, quality team you have to have patience. Even one year later, Bloom is in a vastly better position to trade for established talent than 2022, because the prospects are developing. I'm not sure his plan is to wait for them all to get to the Majors -- that's just your assumption. I suspect this winter we will see trades and signings that show them shifting into a more immediate contending phase. But they aren't telling us what their future plans are, nor should they.
Dude I’m going to say this the nicest way possible, i didn’t read a word of your drivel and I couldn’t possible care less about your opinion.
So this is just a site for you to blast your opinions at everyone. Awesome.
Quick question... who was suggesting that those in support of Bloom were looking for high draft picks by tanking? I seriously looked and couldn't find the reference.
I agree with your assessment that tanking for a high draft pick in this sport is a fool's gambit, but I'm not seeing it in this thread.
The divisions don't mean that much when you have the cushion of 3 non-winners making the postseason. Think of them as 9th out of 15. Better than most years when Mr. Shank Sr. took the then-young Shank to Fenway.
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The idea was tossed around in another thread, maybe the Chaim one, but pretty much nobody actually advocated for that (for obvious reasons).
Because I’m the first to run here and post when Shank shanks someone, I’m happy to admit that I almost always enjoy his Cooperstown roundup after HOF weekends, this one included:
https://www.bostonglobe.com/2023/07/24/sports/danny-ainge-baseball-hall-of-fame/
This one doesn’t have any slam dunk amazing stories but I did like his story on how somehow Danny Ainge almost ended up back with the Blue Jays after Red traded him to the Sacramento Kings.
https://www.bostonglobe.com/2023/07/24/sports/danny-ainge-baseball-hall-of-fame/
This one doesn’t have any slam dunk amazing stories but I did like his story on how somehow Danny Ainge almost ended up back with the Blue Jays after Red traded him to the Sacramento Kings.
Pat Gillick, another among the octogenarian-only crowd that talks to Shaughnessy.