David Price 2017

[curly2]

I think the last pitch Price throws this year will be the last one he throws for the Sox.

If I were Price, and I hated Boston as much as he seems to, I would play the year out -- since I'm on a first-place team with Chris Sale anchoring the staff and that team has a chance to win -- and then have Tommy John immediately after the year ends. He obviously has elbow damage, and I don't think the Sox could prevent him from having the surgery, even if he able to pitch through it this year.

Then Price can spend 2018 rehabbing, away from big, bad, mean Boston, and if his rehab is going great, opt out after the season, throw for teams to show he's healthy, and get a new deal. If rehab isn't going great, he's stay with the Sox and he still has $120 million coming to you over the next four years. There's nothing for him to lose.

I don't think other teams will want to sign an opting-out Price after the 2018 season knowing he's probably going to need Tommy John at some point. If he's already had it, that makes him more attractive.

 

[grimshaw]

David Price: "Hi, I''m David Price and would like to have some Tommy Lee surgery please."
Surgeon: "Tommy John surgery?"
David Price: "Ya that. Do you do twofers if I got a colonoscopy too?"
Surgeon: "But you don't nee. . ."
David Price: "Cut me the fuck open! "
David Price in a Mr Burns voice: "Everything's falling into place."

 

[curly2]

David Price: "Hi, I''m David Price and would like to have some Tommy Lee surgery please."
Surgeon: "Tommy John surgery?"
David Price: "Ya that. Do you do twofers if I got a colonoscopy too?"
Surgeon: "But you don't nee. . ."
David Price: "Cut me the fuck open! I'm sick of this town."
David Price in a Mr Burns voice: "Everything's falling into place."

Do you not think he's going to need surgery at some point? Price himself even said before the season if he were younger he would have opted for Tommy John. I find it hard to believe he will pitch effectively through 2022 without the operation.

Masahiro Tanaka opted to pitch through the injury and avoid surgery, was excellent last year and has been lit up this year (although his last two starts have been good). There's no way he's taking his opt-out after this season. Do you think his agents wish that he'd had surgery in March 2016 and was back on the mound now healthy?

 

[PudgeFIST]

Also - how does this incident get leaked? Isn't it basically just personnel and the broadcasters on the plane who would want to keep it in house?

A player on the plane tells his wife, who mentions it to a friend or family member who has media connections. Something benign as that perhaps.

 

[Al Zarilla]

Not surprised, thought it was a terrible signing, still furious that he can't perform above replacement level.

Boston management must have been sold on his .344/389/.935 line in three playoff seasons. His last, the 2014 World Series, was even better. They should have placed more importance on his yearly OPS dropoff from 2011 through 2014. I don't "hate" any ballplayer like I would a Bernie Madoff if I'd had money in one of his "funds" but if I did, Sandoval gets more ire from me than Price.

 

[grimshaw]

Do you not think he's going to need surgery at some point? Price himself even said before the season if he were younger he would have opted for Tommy John. I find it hard to believe he will pitch effectively through 2022 without the operation.

Masahiro Tanaka opted to pitch through the injury and avoid surgery, was excellent last year and has been lit up this year (although his last two starts have been good). There's no way he's taking his opt-out after this season. Do you think his agents wish that he'd had surgery in March 2016 and was back on the mound now healthy?

Tanaka had a partially torn UCL which Price doesn't have as far as we know.
Here is the quote from upthread:

"If he had experienced the sort of discomfort he felt after the Feb. 28 outing at an earlier stage of his career, Price said that the outlook offered by Drs. James Andrews and Neal ElAttrache would have been far more dire. But because he’d experienced similar though not quite as extensive discomfort in the past, the doctors were able to look at Price’s history of recovering from early-spring forearm soreness to suggest that all he needed was a brief anti-inflammatory prescription and rest."

I'm not saying he will get through the next 6 years without surgery, but having Tommy John in order to not pitch for the Red Sox again seems drastic.

 

[curly2]

I'm not saying he will get through the next 6 years without surgery, but having Tommy John in order to not pitch for the Red Sox again seems drastic.

Fair point on Tanaka. And I must have stated my point badly. I'm not saying he'd have surgery so he didn't have to pitch for the Red Sox again, I meant he would have it to put himself in the best position for when he opt-out comes up.

I think a team signing him after 2018 would see him as a surgery case waiting to happen, as the Sox correctly did with Lackey, and adjust contract offers accordingly.

 

[Rovin Romine]

The amount of projection going on in this thread is amazing.

At this point I'd like to see Price opt out, but only because he seems to be damaged goods at this point. I have no idea about the man's fundamental character or whether he's a good teammate.

 

[MikeM]

As for opting out, IMO there's very little chance of that happening. The money is simply too good to walk away from, and the MLBPA would likely place some strong pressure on him to stay here and get that $217 million he's owed, because he's probably not going to get that if he opts out.

I wouldn't under-estimate the upper end free agent market on starting pitching, especially factoring in it's inflation rate. It's not going to take more then a pretty good contract season is 2018 for Price to see better then 4/$120m with his track record.

I also wouldn't under estimate how easy this current " I want out of that contract" debate can potentially get flip flopped a year from now, since it's always a lot easier to speculate alternative solutions *before* an acknowledgement towards the actual price tags (in money or prospects) of that stuff start factoring in.

 

[Apisith]

I wouldn't under-estimate the upper end free agent market on starting pitching, especially factoring in it's inflation rate. It's not going to take more then a pretty good contract season is 2018 for Price to see better then 4/$120m with his track record.

I also wouldn't under estimate how easy this current " I want out of that contract" debate can potentially get flip flopped a year from now, since it's always a lot easier to speculate alternative solutions *before* an acknowledgement towards the actual price tags (in money or prospects) of that stuff start factoring in.

How likely is it that after his third year he is viewed as a top tier pitcher? I think he's going to be viewed as what he is now, an aging #3 pitcher who is will continue to get worse. He won't sniff $120m if he opts out. Most likely a 3/$75m deal if he pitches 200 innings next year and his ERA hovers around his level from last year, maybe a year extra.

 

[sean1562]

i think everyone would have rather just spent the money on lester. instead we overpaid for a player feuding with a franchise legend, a poor playoff record, and already a little disliked in Boston. lester would have a lot more slack for decline and the last years would be easier to swallow, as he would have been another red sox lifer. instead we got price complaining and fighting with well liked commentators.

 

[MikeM]

How likely is it that after his third year he is viewed as a top tier pitcher? I think he's going to be viewed as what he is now, an aging #3 pitcher who is will continue to get worse. He won't sniff $120m if he opts out. Most likely a 3/$75m deal if he pitches 200 innings next year and his ERA hovers around his level from last year, maybe a year extra.

You are basing what he is now on 7 total starts atm.

Like I implied, what he's pitching at next season is going to be the primary factor in play there. If he throws 200IP+ at roughly his 2016 rates or better he's opting out and getting paid elsewhere. A year and half from now nobody but the people here still stuck on viewing it as a 7 year deal are going to really care about those first 2 seasons in Boston. $30m/per at a lower 4 year risk duration then you might have to pay out on say...pushing double that at more per/$$$ on a Chris Sale a year latter maybe, isn't going to be a rough sell.

 

[NDame616]

I think the last pitch Price throws this year will be the last one he throws for the Sox.

If I were Price, and I hated Boston as much as he seems to, I would play the year out -- since I'm on a first-place team with Chris Sale anchoring the staff and that team has a chance to win -- and then have Tommy John immediately after the year ends. He obviously has elbow damage, and I don't think the Sox could prevent him from having the surgery, even if he able to pitch through it this year.

Then Price can spend 2018 rehabbing, away from big, bad, mean Boston, and if his rehab is going great, opt out after the season, throw for teams to show he's healthy, and get a new deal. If rehab isn't going great, he's stay with the Sox and he still has $120 million coming to you over the next four years. There's nothing for him to lose.

I don't think other teams will want to sign an opting-out Price after the 2018 season knowing he's probably going to need Tommy John at some point. If he's already had it, that makes him more attractive.

So you think Price will opt out and THEN decide to get TJ, which will cost him a year (and he would get a low, incentive based contract the following season), essentially costing him 2 seasons of getting paid $30M.

If he wanted TJ, why not just NOT opt out, get the surgery, and have the Sox pay you $30M/yr?

 

[InsideTheParker]

So you think Price will opt out and THEN decide to get TJ, which will cost him a year (and he would get a low, incentive based contract the following season), essentially costing him 2 seasons of getting paid $30M.

If he wanted TJ, why not just NOT opt out, get the surgery, and have the Sox pay you $30M/yr?

Isn't that what he said?

Then Price can spend 2018 rehabbing, away from big, bad, mean Boston, and if his rehab is going great, opt out after the season, throw for teams to show he's healthy, and get a new deal. If rehab isn't going great, he's stay with the Sox and he still has $120 million coming to you over the next four years. There's nothing for him to lose.

 

[curly2]

So you think Price will opt out and THEN decide to get TJ, which will cost him a year (and he would get a low, incentive based contract the following season), essentially costing him 2 seasons of getting paid $30M.

If he wanted TJ, why not just NOT opt out, get the surgery, and have the Sox pay you $30M/yr?

I said he has the surgery, rehabs in 2018 on the Sox dime, and if the surgery goes well, THEN he opts out and gets paid somewhere else. If he's not sure if he'll get a better deal, just says with the Sox and gets paid in Boston.

EDIT: Thanks, ITP.

 

[Sandy Leon Trotsky]

The thread is bathshit insane.
He's a good pitcher. Who gives a flippin F what he's paid. He hasn't been the ace we were expecting and he's got a shitty attitude towards... the Boston Sports Media..... what the crap is going on here?
Just hope he pitches as good as he did in the second half last season and we'll be great.

 

[staz]

The thread is bathshit insane.
He's a good pitcher. Who gives a flippin F what he's paid. He hasn't been the ace we were expecting and he's got a shitty attitude towards... the Boston Sports Media..... what the crap is going on here?
Just hope he pitches as good as he did in the second half last season and we'll be great.

This.

Thank you.

 

[AbbyNoho]

He doesn't have a good attitude towards much of anyone, it seems. It's not "batshit insane" to not like a guy. It's not like anyone here is rooting for him to do poorly, like he claims is the majority opinion in Boston. But he's an ass and I am not some kind of 'bad fan' for not liking the way he is an ass.

 

[Sampo Gida]

Price hasnt been what we expected or hoped for but he really hasn't been awful aince joining us except against the Yankees.

Unless he pitches like 2015 the rest of the way he isnt opting out and is untradable.
Maybe he ends up having surgery for something at some point, but you kind of expect that over a 7 year deal.

As for fans hating him and conflicts with the media, thats just a return to the old days. Anyone remember how hated Yaz was in the late 60's and early 70's (some were aghast he got a 3yr 500K contract) and Ted Williams before him and the media-player-manager squabbles? The media today by comparison are simply team PR agents

 

[soxhop411]

Jon Morosi‏Verified account @jonmorosi 35m35 minutes ago
Sources: David Price's argument with Dennis Eckersley resulted from something Eckersley said about another #RedSox player, not Price. @MLB

 

[Al Zarilla]

Jon Morosi‏Verified account @jonmorosi 35m35 minutes ago
Sources: David Price's argument with Dennis Eckersley resulted from something Eckersley said about another #RedSox player, not Price. @MLB

The soap opera goes on. Maybe As The World Turns?

 

[ehaz]

Has Eck been shitting on someone recently?

 

[The Napkin]

"Yuck"?

 

[E5 Yaz]

Has Eck been shitting on someone recently?

Fister?

 

[Average Reds]

I said he has the surgery, rehabs in 2018 on the Sox dime, and if the surgery goes well, THEN he opts out and gets paid somewhere else. If he's not sure if he'll get a better deal, just says with the Sox and gets paid in Boston.

EDIT: Thanks, ITP.

This makes less than zero sense.

There is no world where Price chooses to have TJ surgery and then opts out before being able to re-establish his value. It's just not happening.

The suggestion that Price might just opt-out regardless of the market because he doesn't like Boston is only slightly less realistic.

 

[TonyPenaNeverJuiced]

Sticking up for his teammates? Let's run the schmuck out of town!

 

[twibnotes]

I'll never understand the "who cares what he makes" sentiment.

Salary matters, both in terms of performance expectations and ability to pay other players.

The Red Sox are in fact on the cusp of the luxury tax threshold, and we have a 3B who hits like a pitcher. These things may be related.

 

[geoduck no quahog]

...But he's an ass and I am not some kind of 'bad fan' for not liking the way he is an ass.

What kind of "ass" is he? A "big ass"? A "dirty ass"? An "ass kisser"? A "hard ass"? A "jackass"? A "bad ass"? A "dumb ass?" A "smart ass"? A 'half ass"?

This board was born to a marriage of objective analysis and insatiable interest. Game threads were invented for venting.

Milton Bradley is an ass because he abused his wife. David Price, on the other hand, seems to rub some people who watch him on TV the wrong way.

 

[joe dokes]

He doesn't have a good attitude towards much of anyone, it seems. It's not "batshit insane" to not like a guy. It's not like anyone here is rooting for him to do poorly, like he claims is the majority opinion in Boston. But he's an ass and I am not some kind of 'bad fan' for not liking the way he is an ass.

Is that true about his "attitude"? We haven't heard anything about his teammates not liking him.

In fact, we don't know jack shit about his "attitude."

 

[joe dokes]

What kind of "ass" is he? A "big ass"? A "dirty ass"? An "ass kisser"? A "hard ass"? A "jackass"? A "bad ass"? A "dumb ass?" A "smart ass"? A 'half ass"?
.

Can we write in "red ass" on the ass-ballot?

 

[joyofsox]

"Yuck"?

That was the first thing I thought of, too. When NESN put up the stat line from Rodriguez's rehab start (3 innings, 9 hits, 6 runs), Eck immediately said "Yuck". There was nothing else for several seconds, as I'm sure DOB was giving him a look. Maybe that's not the most diplomatic response to those numbers, but it also wasn't a good outing, either. ... Now, who is monitoring NESN to let players know if the announcers utter even one syllable of criticism?

 

[gedman211]

Eck is the best color commentator I've ever heard. It used to be Jim Palmer, but now it's Eck. Eck has Palmer's pedigree, experience and acute observational skills, but is also genuinely hilarious in conversation. Hopefully this incident won't lead him to water down his criticisms, because the fawning sycophants that make up the rest of the Henry/Warner Hasbara make me mute the TV.

 

[SoFloSoxFan]

Eck is the best color commentator I've ever heard. It used to be Jim Palmer, but now it's Eck. Eck has Palmer's pedigree, experience and acute observational skills, but is also genuinely hilarious in conversation. Hopefully this incident won't lead him to water down his criticisms, because the fawning sycophants that make up the rest of the Henry/Warner Hasbara make me mute the TV.

I don't know if this is worthy of a main board post but ... this. I so enjoy Dennis Eckersley as a color guy. It was a joy to listen to him calling Sale's game today.

Edited to add some context: Saturday's game was on nationally on mlb network using the NESN feed. I sat with my 77 year old dad (born in Boston and raised in Saugus. His father worked Fenway once upon a time) and watched it. Even with his hearing aids he has trouble figuring out the words when the announcers talk over each other. I paused it several times to tell him what Dennis was saying when Dennis was reacting to Sale's pitching and he reacted each time. A smile , a nod, frequently a laugh. Eckersley really shows you things you might not notice. I am a big fan.

 

[Clears Cleaver]

Brooks-baseball classifying it as cutter (no sliders).

Yr_BA_SLG
2014- 185-283
2015- 241-386
2016-319-484
2017-273-485

Regardless of Brooks Baseball classification I believe he throws both. I believe I read somewhere that he started going to the cutter more at the end 2015 , which is when the consolidated cutter + slider numbers above started creeping up

Edit-2nd half of 2015 is when the juiced ball with lower seam height was supposedly introduced. I wonder if this effected his slider? Sheer speculation on my part though

Thanks this is insightful

 

[keninten]

Listening to Eck is a beautiful thing

 

[Van Everyman]

Eck is the best color commentator I've ever heard. It used to be Jim Palmer, but now it's Eck. Eck has Palmer's pedigree, experience and acute observational skills, but is also genuinely hilarious in conversation. Hopefully this incident won't lead him to water down his criticisms, because the fawning sycophants that make up the rest of the Henry/Warner Hasbara make me mute the TV.

Eck is never going to change. This is who he is. He's candid and cocky as hell which is an unbelievable combination for a color guy. He also utilizes a whole separate language when it comes to talking baseball. I love him unconditionally.

The real question is whether NESN changes – by pulling him from the booth or the studio. That would be a terrible thing but you can see why they'd consider it if enough players complained and the higher ups felt his presence was harming the club.

 

[joe dokes]

Eck might be worth a separate thread. Or I might be the only viewer who thinks that less of him is more.
His reactions to stuff are entertaining. But he is 99 percent telling me what I just saw. Even in a funny way, it doesn't add a lot for me.
It could be his pairing with O'Brien, as it did didn't rub me the wrong way when he was on with orsillo.


If "yuck" set price off, he needs to lower the rabbit ears. It's a stupid comment about a rehab start, though.

 

[streeter88]

This.

Thank you.

Only one thing to add. $30m per year should also buy performance in the playoffs. David Price has not yet shown that he has that skill or temperament. The Indians beat up on both Porcello and Price last year, and that is just not good enough, especially when we could not get enough of Big Papi.
This year Sale will be the ace; all Price has to do is not choke on his own vomit. If he can manage that, then he is worth his money.

 

[InsideTheParker]

Is that true about his "attitude"? We haven't heard anything about his teammates not liking him.

In fact, we don't know jack shit about his "attitude."

His own tweets aimed at David Ortiz before he was a member of the Red Sox don't count? (Or we are supposed to have short memories and forget anything that happened before he was "one of us?")

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

His own tweets aimed at David Ortiz before he was a member of the Red Sox don't count? (Or we are supposed to have short memories and forget anything that happened before he was "one of us?")

Considering that Ortiz and Price made peace in the wake of those comments, it's a bit rich for us to get offended by them if Ortiz, the target of said tweets, is not.

And yeah, most of the time we forget about prior stuff once a player is one of us. The only real exception I'd make for that is domestic violence, and even then fans have proven to have short/selective memories (Derek Lowe).

 

[InsideTheParker]

Ortiz's public comments once Price was signed are just company politics. We will never know what is in his heart and mind, only what is in ours. Some of us have disliked Price for a long time, and he hasn't endeared himself yet. Yeah, he loves his dog. Whoop-de-doo.

 

[chawson]

Eck is never going to change. This is who he is. He's candid and cocky as hell which is an unbelievable combination for a color guy. He also utilizes a whole separate language when it comes to talking baseball. I love him unconditionally.

Not to pick on you specifically, Van Everyman, but the double standard some people are using in this thread is insane.

David Price is also candid and cocky as hell. Dennis Eckersley is a fine color guy, but he's also a 62-year-old alcoholic. That people are defending Eck as a reflex in this supposed dispute (where Price is reportedly defending a teammate) is embarrassing as hell.

Price was a five-win pitcher last year. Chris Sale has actually had *more* documented attitude problems coming here than Price (http://nesn.com/2015/04/report-chris-sale-went-to-royals-clubhouse-to-fight-yordano-ventura/). No one gives him any shit.

Honestly. We keep this up, and there'll be no reason for a black athlete to sign with the Red Sox again.

 

[TheoShmeo]

Not to pick on you specifically, Van Everyman, but the double standard some people are using in this thread is insane.

David Price is also candid and cocky as hell. Dennis Eckersley is a fine color guy, but he's also a 62-year-old alcoholic. That people are defending Eck as a reflex in this supposed dispute (where Price is reportedly defending a teammate) is embarrassing as hell.

Price was a five-win pitcher last year. Chris Sale has actually had *more* documented attitude problems coming here than Price (http://nesn.com/2015/04/report-chris-sale-went-to-royals-clubhouse-to-fight-yordano-ventura/). No one gives him any shit.

Honestly. We keep this up, and there'll be no reason for a black athlete to sign with the Red Sox again.

I can think of millions of reasons.

And I would not count my breath on David Price's experience preventing others from coming to Boston. Black athletes, like all humans, are more discerning than that.

 

[Zososoxfan]

I don't agree with everything @chawson said above, but I will say that I think regardless of where everyone comes down on this issue, some guys in the clubhouse will definitely appreciate Price standing up for a teammate. I'd go so far as to say this is an example of those mythical "leadership qualities".

And, to echo the poster above who said there should be more analytic discussion, Price's ERA+ on the season now sits at an even 100. His career average is 123 and even though I don't think he's likely that pitcher anymore, I expect him to regress upwards and improve over the second half of the season, especially considering his injuries at the beginning of this year.

 

[Byrdbrain]

Not to pick on you specifically, Van Everyman, but the double standard some people are using in this thread is insane.

David Price is also candid and cocky as hell. Dennis Eckersley is a fine color guy, but he's also a 62-year-old alcoholic. That people are defending Eck as a reflex in this supposed dispute (where Price is reportedly defending a teammate) is embarrassing as hell.

Price was a five-win pitcher last year. Chris Sale has actually had *more* documented attitude problems coming here than Price (http://nesn.com/2015/04/report-chris-sale-went-to-royals-clubhouse-to-fight-yordano-ventura/). No one gives him any shit.

Honestly. We keep this up, and there'll be no reason for a black athlete to sign with the Red Sox again.

The bolded is just flat out stupid, I'd like to use a different word but I think that is by far the best way to describe it.
What exactly is it that we would be keeping up?
What exactly does that have to do with David Price being black and other black athletes?
What does the fact that Dennis Eckersley is a recovering alcoholic have to do with anything.

I agreed that the thread was batshit crazy and this post managed to crank it up a notch.

 

[Curt S Loew]

What does the fact that Dennis Eckersley is a recovering alcoholic have to do with anything.

Yes, I was just about to pose the same question. I would like an answer as well.

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

Ortiz's public comments once Price was signed are just company politics. We will never know what is in his heart and mind, only what is in ours. Some of us have disliked Price for a long time, and he hasn't endeared himself yet. Yeah, he loves his dog. Whoop-de-doo.

The first statement is completely contradicted by the second. You have zero idea if the bolded is in any way true, so as you say we don't have any idea what's really in any of their minds. Don't assign thoughts to Ortiz that you have zero insight into.

You just don't like Price. That's fine. There's no need to assign more motives to that dislike by imagining things.

 

[Al Zarilla]

Not to pick on you specifically, Van Everyman, but the double standard some people are using in this thread is insane.

David Price is also candid and cocky as hell. Dennis Eckersley is a fine color guy, but he's also a 62-year-old alcoholic. That people are defending Eck as a reflex in this supposed dispute (where Price is reportedly defending a teammate) is embarrassing as hell.

Price was a five-win pitcher last year. Chris Sale has actually had *more* documented attitude problems coming here than Price (http://nesn.com/2015/04/report-chris-sale-went-to-royals-clubhouse-to-fight-yordano-ventura/). No one gives him any shit.

Honestly. We keep this up, and there'll be no reason for a black athlete to sign with the Red Sox again.

What the hell does Eck being an alcoholic, recovering BTW, have to do with anything?Oh, I see Byrd already said just this, but it deserves more attention.

Edit, Curt, too.

 

[HriniakPosterChild]

His own tweets aimed at David Ortiz before he was a member of the Red Sox don't count? (Or we are supposed to have short memories and forget anything that happened before he was "one of us?")

Price also picked a fight on Twitter with the former pitcher, then TNT analyst, Dork Hayhurst. IIRC, it was after he pitched a poor playoff game against the Red Sox.

 

[chawson]

The bolded is just flat out stupid, I'd like to use a different word but I think that is by far the best way to describe it.
What exactly is it that we would be keeping up?
What exactly does that have to do with David Price being black and other black athletes?
What does the fact that Dennis Eckersley is a recovering alcoholic have to do with anything.

I agreed that the thread was batshit crazy and this post managed to crank it up a notch.

You're willfully missing the point.

A story emerges that Eckersley had words with David Price, a borderline HOF-caliber pitcher and demonstrably tough competitor. All we know about it is that Price was sticking up for a teammate. Please give me a reasonable explanation why you would rush to defend Eck.

Very likely, race has nothing overtly to do with this specific issue. But Boston sports has a race problem. It is pronounced and historic, whether people want to address it or not, and the media absolutely plays into the implicit bias.

David Price cannot catch a break from Boston media, and I'm truly struggling to understand why. He is a vocal and passionate player trying to return from an injury trying to battle back from a scary injury. He had no spring training and two minor league tuneups, and has a 1.52 FIP over his last two starts. He was also, while subpar by his standards, one of the very best pitchers in baseball last year.

Chris Sale, an amazing pitcher, once rushed into another team's dugout to fight another player. He cut up his entire team's throwback jerseys. No one in Boston perceives him as a player with a bad attitude.

Why do you believe race doesn't have something to do with it?