Derrick Rose - Buttery Soft

DJnVa · Nov 12, 2014

I get the whole "looking to after basketball" but we're not talking about football and concussions here...he's got sprained ankles...

Curtis Pride · Nov 12, 2014

Rose does have a point here, but I think it would have been better if he pointed out that it was early in the season and that it's better sitting out now than during the playoffs. Maybe he did say that, and the author omitted that part for a more sensational narrative.

knucklecup · Nov 12, 2014

Rose taking care of himself does not make him a bad person, but like CP said above, he should have geared his focus on getting healthy for the playoffs and not the post basketball life he's ranting about here.

Blacken · Nov 12, 2014

Meh, whatever? I don't think there's an American sport where you're as likely to hurt yourself if you aren't in top shape as basketball. That goes double for a Thibs team. If you are not 100% and you go on the court of a Tom Thibodeau team, you are going to get hurt again and again. See also: Luol Deng, Joakim Noah. If your coaching staff won't protect you, it's up to you to do so.

The faux machismo of "soft" because you don't play through injury is insane anyway, too, but whatever.

LeoCarrillo · Nov 12, 2014

I am full of distrust for sports journalists and what they omit for sensationalistic purposes. But it's pretty hard to give Rose a pass on a comment like this:

"Having graduations to go to, having meetings to go to, I don't want to be in my meetings all sore."

[SIZE=14.4444446563721px]The Bulls pay you $17 million. For better or worse, I think it's an unspoken agreement entered into by all professional athletes that the overpayment for their services during their playing days entails some detriment to their physical condition after they're done. Or, at the very least, the assumption of risk of physical detriment.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14.4444446563721px]Now, if we're talking concussions, different story. And I'd even give Derrick Rose the benefit of the doubt on knowing if his knees were in playing shape the last two years. But he deserves to get zinged for comments like the above, at the very least. He doesn't want to be sore when he's 42 years old and sitting at a conference table discussing how to extend his brand?? [/SIZE]

Blacken · Nov 12, 2014

"Sore" was the wrong word. "Hurting" probably is what he means. And I don't see how you can fault him for that.

There is no reason whatsoever for an athlete to look out for anybody but #1, as he defines it. Capital wants to be mercenary, it gets mercenary labor. The Bulls in particular have a history of cheaping the hell out around their superstars, so, yeah.

DJnVa · Nov 12, 2014

Blacken said:
"Sore" was the wrong word. "Hurting" probably is what he means. And I don't see how you can fault him for that.

Well, you know, maybe. But he said "sore" twice, so I don't feel that judging him on that is being mean to the guy.

kenneycb · Nov 12, 2014

So he's basically JD Drew?

ALiveH · Nov 12, 2014

Most guys who have played in the NBA for a long time have really messed up legs. I would not want to be in constant pain for my whole life. So, on a personal level, I sympathize with him and don't think he's a bad person.

But, that being said, he's not a guy I want on my team and if I'm a Bulls fan or teammate those comments are extremely depressing & demotivating.

Dan to Theo to Ben · Nov 12, 2014

BigSoxFan said:
I mean, anyone who's seen Bill Walton or Kevin McHale walk in person can understand the overall sentiment but have Rose's injuries really been that debilitating? Do ACL/meniscus tears have longterm implications? Paging DRS

6-10+ and 6-3 is a whole different ballgame, though. Second the page.

lars10 · Nov 12, 2014

When I watch Rose play I see injuries just waiting to happen... He constantly puts ridiculous amounts of force on his knees and ankles by using the jump stop and driving to the hoop at very high speeds. Until he can train himself to be less violent on his joints he'll be in fear of hurting himself again. The only problem is I don't know how much that takes away from his game.

This is one reason I like Rondo so much... guy is always trying to get back on the court whenever he gets hurt. Rose may be the better player, but it's no good if he can't/won't play.

Dan to Theo to Ben · Nov 12, 2014

kenneycb said:
So he's basically JD Drew?

JD Drew was injury-prone, but he would never say what Rose did.

LeoCarrillo · Nov 13, 2014

His responses to the criticisms:

"Really, I was just being myself," he said. "As long as I'm being myself that's the only person I can be and that's about it ... I can't do anything about it. I just got to let God handle that and just put every performance and every article behind me every day ... As long as I'm being myself and inspiring people the way that I am and touching people the way that I am, that's all I can do, caring about myself and just being positive."

[SIZE=14.4444446563721px]What a tosser. Forget this guy.[/SIZE]

Blacken · Nov 13, 2014

I'll defend self-interest, but that's just wacky.

The Social Chair · Nov 13, 2014

Sounds like a future Contributing Editor of The Players Tribune

TheRooster · Nov 13, 2014

He doesn't seem to get that part of the reason he makes so much money is the wear and tear on his body. If he told the Bulls, "I'm only going to play when I'm 100% healthy and feeling fresh" I suspect they would have offered him much less money (assuming they didn't trade him immediately). This reminds me of the guys who bitch about losing their privacy and the ability to go to a restaurant without someone asking for an autograph. Fine, get a different job because getting beat up physically and getting recognized in public are part of the package.

Blacken · Nov 13, 2014

TheRooster said:
This reminds me of the guys who bitch about losing their privacy and the ability to go to a restaurant without someone asking for an autograph.

Ehh, c'mon--these are completely different things. If you bother somebody at a restaurant because you recognize them, you are at best a jerk. They're still people and they're not your monkey.

Nick Kaufman · Nov 13, 2014

TheRooster said:
He doesn't seem to get that part of the reason he makes so much money is the wear and tear on his body. If he told the Bulls, "I'm only going to play when I'm 100% healthy and feeling fresh" I suspect they would have offered him much less money (assuming they didn't trade him immediately). This reminds me of the guys who bitch about losing their privacy and the ability to go to a restaurant without someone asking for an autograph. Fine, get a different job because getting beat up physically and getting recognized in public are part of the package.

I don't think it's the wear and tear. It's the scarcity of his talent.

And I have complete sympathy for athletes who want to preserve their health long after they have retired. It's easy to be macho about these things when you re seating in the sidelines.

NHbeau · Nov 13, 2014

It speaks more to me about his commitment to winning than anything else. I won't compare it across sports as it's just not fair, but does MJ or Kobe sit out if they can go? Does anyone think they gave a single thought about sitting at a graduation and being sore? The greats in most any sport have one common denominator. The desire to win at any cost. Derrick Rose, despite considerable talent, pretty clearly lacks that attribute. While I appreciate the candor, I also wouldn't want him on my team. I don't want to be that guy but we're talking the NBA here, not the NHL or NFL where violence is inherent in the sport. And this isn't some concussion issue with serious long term effects, or an early suicide.

TheRooster · Nov 13, 2014

It is absolutely understandable and perhaps even justified to worry about your life in 20 years, but it is also naiive. No human can play 100 basketball games at the NBA level and not spend a lot of days in pain. To be great, you've got to find a way to get through your 10+ years. I have no doubt that some guys can't or won't. Hell, maybe Rose looks at his bank account and decides, "I've had enough." I don't really expect him to do that, but there are guys (Robert Smith in football, Bison Dele) who do. I suspect that KG has known how uncomfortable and perhaps immobile his 60s and 70s are likely to be for years, and yet, he still laces them up and plays hard. That is not about being macho. It is about making a conscious decision that you are willing to pay the price for glory or riches or whatever it is that drives many of these guys.

Cellar-Door · Nov 13, 2014

Nick Kaufman said:
I don't think it's the wear and tear. It's the scarcity of his talent.
And I have complete sympathy for athletes who want to preserve their health long after they have retired. It's easy to be macho about these things when you re seating in the sidelines.

A less talented player who played 75-80 games a year would bring a team more value than Rose right now though. The physical toll is certainly a part of why guys make so much money (and have really terrific health care), if a player takes games off and doesn't put in the full effort he isn't giving the team what they contracted for. I mean it would probably be in everyone in the world's best interests in terms of long term physical and mental health to work less, unfortunately that isn't an option because if you call up and say, hey I think it will be better for me in retirement if I don't come to work this week they don't pay you.

Edit- and as I was writing this he pulled a hammy.

HomeRunBaker · Nov 13, 2014

Cellar-Door said:
A less talented player who played 75-80 games a year would bring a team more value than Rose right now though.

This is still a stars league and Rose's presence in the lineup has been proven to have an impact in Wins and Losses. We can get emotional about his comments because they aren't P.C. but a less talented player at PG for the Bulls is going to result in more losses for the Bulls than having Rose as your PG.

It's rare to find PG's who impact Wins and Losses the way Rose, Paul and Westbrook have. We certainly don't have that PG and some want to pay him a max contract. You don't take players like Rose for granted if he's your PG.

PS - Yes what he said was stupid as shit. Things Paul Pierce said in his twenties were stupid as shit too......especially when wearing bandages on his head at a press conference.

Cellar-Door · Nov 13, 2014

HomeRunBaker said:
This is still a stars league and Rose's presence in the lineup has been proven to have an impact in Wins and Losses. We can get emotional about his comments because they aren't P.C. but a less talented player at PG for the Bulls is going to result in more losses for the Bulls than having Rose as your PG.

It's rare to find PG's who impact Wins and Losses the way Rose, Paul and Westbrook have. We certainly don't have that PG and some want to pay him a max contract. You don't take players like Rose for granted if he's your PG.

PS - Yes what he said was stupid as shit. Things Paul Pierce said in his twenties were stupid as shit too......especially when wearing bandages on his head at a press conference.

It depends how much he plays. Rose has played 4 of the 9 games this season. If he plays 36 of 82 he is much less valuable to the team than using his 19M cap space on say... Kyle Lowry and JJ Reddick? I don't doubt that Rose playing 70+ games is great, my point was if you don't think he can do that (and it sure looks like he can't) and you can't depend on him, a team is much better off with a lesser PG and better depth.
Comparing the Bulls record when he plays and when he doesn't is pointless. Of course a team wins less when they lose their best player and can't replace him because he is still eating up 25% of the cap. The question is whether they would win more with a PG who is 70% of the player Rose is but plays more and another upgrade somewhere else.

crystalline · Nov 14, 2014

Cellar-Door said:
It depends how much he plays. Rose has played 4 of the 9 games this season. If he plays 36 of 82 he is much less valuable to the team than using his 19M cap space on say... Kyle Lowry and JJ Reddick? I don't doubt that Rose playing 70+ games is great, my point was if you don't think he can do that (and it sure looks like he can't) and you can't depend on him, a team is much better off with a lesser PG and better depth.
Comparing the Bulls record when he plays and when he doesn't is pointless. Of course a team wins less when they lose their best player and can't replace him because he is still eating up 25% of the cap. The question is whether they would win more with a PG who is 70% of the player Rose is but plays more and another upgrade somewhere else.

I don't know. Another strange distorting effect of the max contract is that Rose is worth the max if he plays every game, and he's probably worth the max even if he plays half. Another way to say that is how many teams would sign him right now to a max contract if they had perfect knowledge he'd play exactly half the games? At least a few, I'd wager.

And even beyond pure cost-per-game, how many teams would sign him to a max contract knowing he'd play zero regular season games but be healthy for the playoffs? This is tougher because playoff teams have less cap room, but I bet several teams would try.

Of course the key element to those hypotheticals is the perfect knowledge that he'd play at least some games. Its the season ending injuries that hurt.

Nick Kaufman · Nov 14, 2014

TheRooster said:
It is absolutely understandable and perhaps even justified to worry about your life in 20 years, but it is also naiive. No human can play 100 basketball games at the NBA level and not spend a lot of days in pain. To be great, you've got to find a way to get through your 10+ years. I have no doubt that some guys can't or won't. Hell, maybe Rose looks at his bank account and decides, "I've had enough." I don't really expect him to do that, but there are guys (Robert Smith in football, Bison Dele) who do. I suspect that KG has known how uncomfortable and perhaps immobile his 60s and 70s are likely to be for years, and yet, he still laces them up and plays hard. That is not about being macho. It is about making a conscious decision that you are willing to pay the price for glory or riches or whatever it is that drives many of these guys.

I never thought that a player playing 100 NBA games a year should expect to live his post-retirement days in pain. This to me looks like the unfortunate exception and not the rule. If this is the case however, then may be instead of discussing how players should suck it up, we should be discussing how we should make the NBA and for that matter all major sports stop destroying their employees long term health. Perhaps, we shouldn't have an 82 game season. And may be we should stop back to backs, or more 2 or 3 games a week.

The attitude that players should mangle their bodies, sort of like disposable cogs for a never stopping machine that only cares for NOW NOW NOW and all of that for our viewing pleasure completely turns me off. It shouldn't be this way. I remember when Gladiator came came out and a person I was watching the movie with had an expression of disdain at the barbarity of the whole spectacle of gladiators maiming each other in the Coliseum. And yet I felt at the time and still do now, that we experience a barbarity of a similar vein when we celebrate aggressive sacks that give concussions or teeth-grinding athletes who play injured so that they can give their team the chance to win a game at the cost of their knees not being there at the ripe old age of.... 40.

HomeRunBaker · Nov 14, 2014

Cellar-Door said:
It depends how much he plays. Rose has played 4 of the 9 games this season. If he plays 36 of 82 he is much less valuable to the team than using his 19M cap space on say... Kyle Lowry and JJ Reddick? I don't doubt that Rose playing 70+ games is great, my point was if you don't think he can do that (and it sure looks like he can't) and you can't depend on him, a team is much better off with a lesser PG and better depth.
Comparing the Bulls record when he plays and when he doesn't is pointless. Of course a team wins less when they lose their best player and can't replace him because he is still eating up 25% of the cap. The question is whether they would win more with a PG who is 70% of the player Rose is but plays more and another upgrade somewhere else.

Well if that less talented player is Kyle Lowry I agree since i'm not even sure how much of a drop off that is.....Lowry is a legit stud. If the drop off is to say a Calderon or Lin I'd prefer Rose 100% of the time at max since its use on another player isn't likely to make nearly the impact.

johnmd20 · Nov 14, 2014

Nick Kaufman said:
I never thought that a player playing 100 NBA games a year should expect to live his post-retirement days in pain. This to me looks like the unfortunate exception and not the rule. If this is the case however, then may be instead of discussing how players should suck it up, we should be discussing how we should make the NBA and for that matter all major sports stop destroying their employees long term health. Perhaps, we shouldn't have an 82 game season. And may be we should stop back to backs, or more 2 or 3 games a week.

The attitude that players should mangle their bodies, sort of like disposable cogs for a never stopping machine that only cares for NOW NOW NOW and all of that for our viewing pleasure completely turns me off. It shouldn't be this way. I remember when Gladiator came came out and a person I was watching the movie with had an expression of disdain at the barbarity of the whole spectacle of gladiators maiming each other in the Coliseum. And yet I felt at the time and still do now, that we experience a barbarity of a similar vein when we celebrate aggressive sacks that give concussions or teeth-grinding athletes who play injured so that they can give their team the chance to win a game at the cost of their knees not being there at the ripe old age of.... 40.

Step off the soap box for one second. Most NBA players are not destroying their bodies in the same way, say, the football players are. And they have guaranteed contracts. You're taking up the mantle for Derrick Rose, who hasn't shown up for work approximately 80% of the time for the past three seasons. For this, he's made tens of millions of dollars.

NBA players are not gladiators. And most NBA players can still move around pretty well when they hit the ripe old age of. . . .40. You talk about gladiators and sacks and concussions. You understand we're talking about Rose, right? He's a basketball player, right? Not a football player.

The Social Chair · Nov 14, 2014

Anybody who has ever seen Kevin McHale or Phil Jackson walk might disagree with you.

Cellar-Door · Nov 14, 2014

It's incredibly physically demanding. That's why you get paid so much, as Barkley and Shaq noted on the pre-game last night.
Lots of other jobs are close to as demanding, and leave you with physical problems and you don't get anywhere near as much money. If Derrick Rose's main concern was not being sore in his 50's and later he should have studied in school and become an engineer or something and led a quietly comfortable life. Instead he focused on basketball, made over $100M and in return he'll probably be sore when he's in his 50s.

Awesome Fossum · Nov 14, 2014

NHbeau said:
It speaks more to me about his commitment to winning than anything else. I won't compare it across sports as it's just not fair, but does MJ or Kobe sit out if they can go? Does anyone think they gave a single thought about sitting at a graduation and being sore? The greats in most any sport have one common denominator. The desire to win at any cost. Derrick Rose, despite considerable talent, pretty clearly lacks that attribute. While I appreciate the candor, I also wouldn't want him on my team. I don't want to be that guy but we're talking the NBA here, not the NHL or NFL where violence is inherent in the sport. And this isn't some concussion issue with serious long term effects, or an early suicide.

http://www.si.com/si-wire/2012/05/16/kobe-bryant-i-dont-take-charges

He continued: "I learned from my predecessors," Bryant said. "[Scottie] Pippen had a [messed] up back taking charges. [Larry] Bird had a [messed] up back taking charges. I said, 'I'm not taking charges.' I figured that ... out at an early age….I've seen Michael [Jordan] not take one ... charge and he's healthy his whole career and the same thing with Magic [Johnson]," Bryant said. "I might not be the smartest guy in the room, but I can figure that ... out."

johnmd20 · Nov 14, 2014

Cellar-Door said:
It's incredibly physically demanding. That's why you get paid so much, as Barkley and Shaq noted on the pre-game last night.
Lots of other jobs are close to as demanding, and leave you with physical problems and you don't get anywhere near as much money. If Derrick Rose's main concern was not being sore in his 50's and later he should have studied in school and become an engineer or something and led a quietly comfortable life. Instead he focused on basketball, made over $100M and in return he'll probably be sore when he's in his 50s.

Exactly. He's not working in the coal mines. If he didn't want his job to be physically demanding, he shouldn't have become a professional basketball player, a sport that might require a player to play 100 games.(not Rose, of course, he will be playing his 20 games and if he's not perfect, he will sit and collect the checks)

This is ridiculous, guys play for 10 years and they might have some sore knees, but they aren't handicapped. Dirk, Duncan, Garnett, Ray Allen, etc. They have been around forever and they are on the court. And everyone gets sore and weaker as they age. I used to race in Triathlons and it definitely beat up my body, especially my hips. I wouldn't trade it for anything, however. I got paid a total of 0 dollars and 0 cents for my efforts.

Blacken · Nov 14, 2014

BigSoxFan said:
It's a grueling sport for many but they're not RBs running full speed into 250 pound linebackers.

No, they're running full speed and jumping into three hundred pound centers before falling onto a wooden court. Trying to dickmeasure that stuff is foolish.

Jalen Rose addressed this on the Grantland Sports Hour, and Rose's weird look-up-to-me talk aside, I still think he's got it: me first, family second, team third. Doesn't matter how much you're making.

But SoSH loves trying to inject morality into business, so, whatever.

HomeRunBaker · Nov 14, 2014

Blacken said:
No, they're running full speed and jumping into three hundred pound centers before falling onto a wooden court. Trying to dickmeasure that stuff is foolish.

Jalen Rose addressed this on the Grantland Sports Hour, and Rose's weird look-up-to-me talk aside, I still think he's got it: me first, family second, team third. Doesn't matter how much you're making.

But SoSH loves trying to inject morality into business, so, whatever.

Rose is 100% correct in feeling this way. He is paid by the Bulls to be an entertainer and sell season tickets. The CBA negotiated by the owners guarantees his contract.

Rose is 100% wrong to speak publicly about his feelings. It is very unprofessional for him to discuss this side of the game that everyone knows occurs.

Blacken · Nov 14, 2014

HomeRunBaker said:
Rose is 100% wrong to speak publicly about his feelings. It is very unprofessional for him to discuss this side of the game that everyone knows occurs.

Bullshit and worse words. The only definition of "professional" in this context is that of a power phrase, used by people with advantage to constrain people lower than them into making choices against their own interest. (And their useful idiots, like you and Peter King and similar.)

The world would be a better place if everybody who used it as you are went the fuck away forever.

HomeRunBaker · Nov 14, 2014

Blacken said:
Bullshit and worse words. The only definition of "professional" in this context is that of a power phrase, used by people with advantage to constrain people lower than them into making choices against their own interest. (And their useful idiots, like you and Peter King and similar.)

The world would be a better place if everybody who used it as you are went the fuck away forever.

Lol. There are ways to act and ways to not act. There are things you can say and things you shouldn't. It's pretty sad that you can't differentiate between these.

Curtis Pride · Nov 16, 2014

I'm not sure about professional, but Rose needs to remember that he is a public figure, like it or not. So he needs to distinguish what thoughts he can share privately with friends and what thoughts he can share publicly with the media. There's his public image, his reputation to consider, and the consequences it has when eliciting support from his teammates and the fans, especially when it comes time to negotiate a new contract or work out a trade to another team.

Also, while playing through pain does have long-term repercussions, in the short term (e.g., during a game or preparing for the next game) it inspires others and boosts morale in his teammates. So while he may be correct in thoughts, Rose may lose his teammates by making these thoughts public. We'll see how the Bulls respond after hearing his comments over the air.

johnmd20 · Nov 16, 2014

Blacken said:
Bullshit and worse words. The only definition of "professional" in this context is that of a power phrase, used by people with advantage to constrain people lower than them into making choices against their own interest. (And their useful idiots, like you and Peter King and similar.)

The world would be a better place if everybody who used it as you are went the fuck away forever.

What language is this in? Are you suggesting someone is trying to take advantage of Derrick Rose? I'm not sure he's working the cotton fields here. He is getting paid a ridiculously large amount of money to play a sport. His contract is guaranteed. And he's played like 15 games out of the last 100. If anything, he is the one taking advantage and only focusing on his own self interest.

Which is fine, he can do that. But it also means it opens him up to being called buttery soft. Part of playing a professional sport is staying on the court/field/etc. Nobody is keeping Rose in chains and forcing him to play basketball and, yet, you're suggesting there is a parallel here. There is no parallel. NBA basketball players and most professional athletes, in fact, are the most pampered people in the world.

He is a unionized employee who is making 19 million dollars this year. That is far more than most people could ever dream of making in their lifetimes.

Blacken · Nov 16, 2014

I'm not saying anyone's trying to take advantage of Derrick Rose, I'm saying that you frothing mouthbreathers seem t think it's his duty to let others do so or to be morally judged for it. "There are children starving in Ethiopia" is a spectacularly stupid argument, especially when you apply it so selectively to the weaker party in a labor dispute. Even you have to realize that making money is not a license to allow somebody making three to four orders of magnitude more money to pressure you into decisions that are against your best interest. Like Jalen Rose said about this, get your hand out of his pocket.

You know who else says "it's just part of the job" when they're giving a pass to, or actively encouraging, the saying of stupid shit about people? Those GamerGate fucks. But at least they have the excuse of having their heads so far up their own asses that they can delude themselves into thinking that they're shitting on people for a meaningful cause. You paragons of low-information opinion don't even have those illusions to self-validate your bad moralizing.

Either this is a business, and moralizing or populizing about what an economic actor is doing is stupid, or it's not, and we have lots of really stupid people being useful idiots for capital for whom every "oh, but he makes X!" idiocy could be multiplied a hundred times over.

johnmd20 · Nov 16, 2014

It's not a moral judgement, it's an analysis. It's part of an NBA players job to actually show up and play in games. In that department, Rose is remarkably inefficient at his job. And I'm not frothing, we're having a discussion on a message board about a player who is not only soft, but is outspoken about his desire to not put his body through anything that could potentially effect him 30 years hence. And if that is the case, he shouldn't have become an NBA player.

Every popular industry has sacrifices. Ask anyone in Hollywood if they would prefer not to be chased by paparazzi. But that's part of the deal. Part of the deal of being a professional athlete is that it will be physically grueling. This is not news to anyone. And this isn't football, where players are actually dying young and getting brain diseases.

And I think it's funny Rose brings up taking charges. He's not choosing to eschew charges. He is completely eschewing the sport of basketball.

Blacken · Nov 16, 2014

"Soft" is only an analytical descriptor if you buy into the idea that words don't mean things.

Derrick Rose - Buttery Soft

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