#DFG: Canceling the Noise

Is there any level of suspension that you would advise Tom to accept?


  • Total voters
    208

Marciano490

Urological Expert
SoSH Member
Nov 4, 2007
47,801
soxhop411 said:
@McCannSportsLaw: If Tom Brady sues & it gets past an NFL motion to dismiss, judge would order Brady to turn over phone records to NFL in pretrial discovery.
 
No.  The NFL would request Brady's phone record, and if Brady objected a judge would likely order them be turned over.
 

PedroKsBambino

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Apr 17, 2003
24,346
soxhop411 said:
@McCannSportsLaw: If Tom Brady sues & it gets past an NFL motion to dismiss, judge would order Brady to turn over phone records to NFL in pretrial discovery.
 
If the theory is defamation, that is.  If Brady's suit is on antitrust grounds (and presumably he has a better theory to do that than Kraft would, because Brady is being kept from working in his chosen field) this wouldn't be an issue.
 

SeoulSoxFan

I Want to Hit the World with Rocket Punch
Dope
Jun 27, 2006
20,651
A Scud Away from Hell
soxhop411 said:
@McCannSportsLaw: If Tom Brady sues & it gets past an NFL motion to dismiss, judge would order Brady to turn over phone records to NFL in pretrial discovery.
 
Brady just may. Who would you trust NOT to leak personal info? Firms that NFL/Goodell would hire or a judge? 
 
I always thought Brady's refusal was about the mistrust of the companies who'd go through the phones while "protecting" personal info. NFL office leaks like a 84' Hyndai. 
 

PedroKsBambino

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Apr 17, 2003
24,346
It would be awesome if Brady sues for defamation and then publishes all his texts, which show nothing guilty.  That has to be the nightmare scenario for Goodell---I actually think he'd be forced out were that to occur....the entire thing would be an obvious sham at that point.
 
I doubt it will, because I don't think Brady's texts will be innocent.  But fun to think about.
 

soxhop411

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 4, 2009
37,144
@RyanHannable: Judging by Tom Brady's agent Don Yee's statement, this is just the beginning. They aren't going down easy.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

Well-Known Member
Silver Supporter
SoSH Member
Jan 23, 2009
12,861
Maine
nattysez said:
 
This is a really dumb thing to say.  You don't start insulting the judge (or hearing officer) before the hearing, which is basically what this is: "If you don't find for us, you're on the take."
 
I think Yee has thoroughly screwed this up from the first, and Brady would be well-served to get a better public spokesman. 
 
And, by the way, Yee has yet to make a single clear statement saying that Brady is 100% innocent.  Issuing one lengthy statement after another without saying "Tom did nothing wrong" is an easy way to lose the PR battle.
 
Yee made that remark knowing full well that the standard operating procedure for an appeal is that it is heard by Goodell himself or someone he designates.  Yee's only planting the seeds for a demand of a truly independent arbiter to hear the appeal.
 

Marciano490

Urological Expert
SoSH Member
Nov 4, 2007
47,801
PedroKsBambino said:
It would be awesome if Brady sues for defamation and then publishes all his texts, which show nothing guilty.  That has to be the nightmare scenario for Goodell---I actually think he'd be forced out were that to occur....the entire thing would be an obvious sham at that point.
 
I doubt it will, because I don't think Brady's texts will be innocent.  But fun to think about.
 
Why would the content matter?  It's the fact he refused to show them that made him uncooperative, not that they were necessarily damning.
 

H78

Fists of Millennial Fury!
SoSH Member
Jul 22, 2009
4,613
I hope that was Brady's strategy all along. See what the league does, knowing Goodell would overreact, and then go to court where you're willing to turn over your personal cell phone. Phone records then reveal nothing and the NFL looks like a bunch of bumbling fools.
 

PedroKsBambino

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Apr 17, 2003
24,346
Red(s)HawksFan said:
 
Yee made that remark knowing full well that the standard operating procedure for an appeal is that it is heard by Goodell himself or someone he designates.  Yee's only planting the seeds for a demand of a truly independent arbiter to hear the appeal.
 
Agreed----the criticism of Yee seems misplaced and uninformed to me.
 
Feb 19, 2015
3,442
Marciano490 said:
 
No.  The NFL would request Brady's phone record, and if Brady objected a judge would likely order them be turned over.
 
Brady may argue that an employer has no right to his personal information. I suspect that will be part of how he gets this heard outside the NFL.
 

Papelbon's Poutine

Homeland Security
SoSH Member
Dec 4, 2005
19,595
Portsmouth, NH
soxhop411 said:
Full statement from Tom Brady's agent Don Yee:

"The discipline is ridiculous and has no legitimate basis. In my opinion, this outcome was pre-determined; there was no fairness in the Wells investigation whatsoever. There is no evidence that Tom directed footballs be set at pressures below the allowable limits. In fact, the evidence shows Tom clearly emphasized that footballs be set at pressures within the rules. Tom also cooperated with the investigation and answered every question presented to him. The Wells Report presents significant evidence, however, that the NFL lacks standards or protocols with respect to its handling of footballs prior to games; this is not the fault of Tom or the Patriots. The report also presents significant evidence the NFL participated with the Colts in some type of pre-AFC Championship Game planning regarding the footballs. This fact may raise serious questions about the integrity of the games we view on Sundays. We will appeal, and if the hearing officer is completely independent and neutral, I am very confident the Wells Report will be exposed as an incredibly frail exercise in fact-finding and logic. The NFL has a well-documented history of making poor disciplinary decisions that often are overturned when truly independent and neutral judges or arbitrators preside, and a former federal judge has found the commissioner has abused his discretion in the past, so this outcome does not surprise me. Sadly, today’s decision diminishes the NFL as it tells its fans, players and coaches that the games on the field don’t count as much as the games played on Park Avenue.”
Strong work on posting everything twice, just in case we missed it. Maybe take a deep breath buddy.
 

natpastime162

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
1,857
Pennsylvania
Do people really believe fans would have "forgave" Tom Brady if he just admitted to it?  That's the hollow excuse I've heard crop up over the last several hours.  I can't blame anyone for lying (even if guilty) after seeing players and fans alike lose their collective minds over this issue.
 

ForKeeps

lurker
Oct 13, 2011
464
In retrospect, the Pats should have just stonewalled the investigation as an organization.
 
1. No Brady suspension (without the texts they have nothing on him)
and 2. They would have faced draft pick losses/fines which they ultimately did anyway.
 
Obviously they'd look guilty as hell but so what, 95% of the country thinks they're cheaters anyway.
 

J.McG

lurker
Aug 11, 2011
204
The NFL Spring League Meetings in San Francisco next week should be a barrel of laughs. Patriots should send McNally and Jastremski as the team's representatives in protest.
 

PedroKsBambino

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Apr 17, 2003
24,346
Marciano490 said:
 
Why would the content matter?  It's the fact he refused to show them that made him uncooperative, not that they were necessarily damning.
 
Because as a practical perception/PR matter the Wells report and Vincent rely heavily on the texts as evidence---if it is shown there is no 'there' there and yet all of these penalties were issued, the entire process becomes not only indefensible, but clearly wrong substantively.

Legally, you are correct that the refusal was part of the stated basis and would not change.
 

soxhop411

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 4, 2009
37,144
@McCannSportsLaw: Brady's agent demands appeal be heard by neutral person. NFL would be bold by hiring ex-Judge Barbara Jones (ruled for Ray Rice in appeal).
 

Leather

given himself a skunk spot
SoSH Member
Jul 18, 2005
26,430
That "admit it" stuff is coming from people who want to eliminate the sticky issue of there not being any, you know, proof that Brady did anything wrong.
 

SeoulSoxFan

I Want to Hit the World with Rocket Punch
Dope
Jun 27, 2006
20,651
A Scud Away from Hell
PedroKsBambino said:
 
Agreed----the criticism of Yee seems misplaced and uninformed to me.
 
Criticism of Yee seems to come from lawyers or former lawyers. That makes sense, where each word has to be carefully gauged (hehe) before being uttered. 
 
Oh and this:
 
@IanKenyonNFL You can't spell Roger Goodell without "Greed" "God" "Ego" "Lord" or "Ego"
 

MiracleOfO2704

not AWOL
SoSH Member
Jul 12, 2005
6,157
The Island
natpastime162 said:
Do people really believe fans would have "forgave" Tom Brady if he just admitted to it?  That's the hollow excuse I've heard crop up over the last several hours.  I can't blame anyone for lying (even if guilty) after seeing players and fans alike lose their collective minds over this issue.
 
A certain Judge Hathorne doesn't understand your dilemma. After all, if you're a witch, then that's all there is to it.
 

Marciano490

Urological Expert
SoSH Member
Nov 4, 2007
47,801
PedroKsBambino said:
 
Because as a practical perception/PR matter the Wells report and Vincent rely heavily on the texts as evidence---if it is shown there is no 'there' there and yet all of these penalties were issued, the entire process becomes not only indefensible, but clearly wrong substantively.
Legally, you are correct that the refusal was part of the stated basis and would not change.
 
The texts between the employees were found by PW to be sufficient to create an inference of guilt which led them to request Brady's phone records.  He refused to comply with that request. Whether there is or isn't anything inculpatory on his phone is irrelevant.  And, frankly, the absence of any inculpatory evidence on his phone is meaningless.  Unless he has a text to the ballboys saying "hey, remember not to go below 12.5! :)" there's nothing in his phone that's going to move the needle.
 

SeoulSoxFan

I Want to Hit the World with Rocket Punch
Dope
Jun 27, 2006
20,651
A Scud Away from Hell
ForKeeps said:
In retrospect, the Pats should have just stonewalled the investigation as an organization.
 
1. No Brady suspension (without the texts they have nothing on him)
and 2. They would have faced draft pick losses/fines which they ultimately did anyway.
 
Obviously they'd look guilty as hell but so what, 95% of the country thinks they're cheaters anyway.
 
Hey you know that street scam where no matter what shell you pick, it's the one that ain't got the prize? 
 
Think opposite except this time you always get to pick that shell with a big turd inside it. 
 

Comfortably Lomb

Koko the Monkey
SoSH Member
Feb 22, 2004
10,812
The Paris of the 80s
NavaHo said:
The "twice as long as Ray Rice" argument doesn't hold water for me, but I have no qualms about everyone being reminded of the embarrassing clown show that was the Ray Rice investigation.

Goodell appears to be acting as if, by not being fired over the Rice case, he's been given permission, or even a mandate, to put his Sheriff hat on and wield all the power he can pretend to manage, in the name of "integrity" and at the expense of integrity.
 
It's not really an argument, it's an embarrassment. The priorities of the league office are just that out of whack.
 

ForKeeps

lurker
Oct 13, 2011
464
soxhop411 said:
@McCannSportsLaw: Brady's agent demands appeal be heard by neutral person. NFL would be bold by hiring ex-Judge Barbara Jones (ruled for Ray Rice in appeal).
 
I feel like Brady has less of a case than Rice but just getting someone who is at least willing to rule against the NFL would be huge.
 

Kull

wannabe merloni
SoSH Member
Nov 1, 2005
1,555
El Paso, TX
TomTerrific said:
What makes you think the other owners are smart enough to see this? Other than perhaps a select few, but that's just a few. And there is essentially no rule of law within the league, Goodell is making that damn clear, so making that connection to long-term consequences is even harder for them, much less the Boeotians who lurk just outside the walls of SOSH.
 
No, what most of the other owners see is a commish who metes out justice as it is deserved, precedent be damned. And they think, "They deserve it, we're not the Patriots, and it won't happen to us".
 
I don't disagree. The smart play for Kraft would be to delay his response while checking to see how many owners have made this connection, and if it's possible to awaken many of those that haven't. If not, then the league and a majority of owners will be on record (effectively) as saying they will stop at nothing to destroy the Patriots ability to field a winning football team. Not sure what his options will be then, but there won't be any real downside to any of them.
 

SeoulSoxFan

I Want to Hit the World with Rocket Punch
Dope
Jun 27, 2006
20,651
A Scud Away from Hell
Two things I dind't know about that Great American Hero Don Yee. 
 
1. He represented Sean Peyton during Bounty Gate
2. He currently represents Jimmy Garoppolo
 

ForKeeps

lurker
Oct 13, 2011
464
SeoulSoxFan said:
 
Hey you know that street scam where no matter what shell you pick, it's the one that ain't got the prize? 
 
Think opposite except this time you always get to pick that shell with a big turd inside it. 
 
So what do you think the penalty would have been if they refused to cooperate entirely? Three first round picks and 5 million dollars?
 

DBB23

lurker
Jul 17, 2005
31
Brady will appeal and it may* drop 1 or 2 games. To the point most of the first 2 pages are asking for law suits. Brady is in an Arod HR bonus situation, if he sues which Ill take bets he will not. He will open himself to questioning under oath and to having his cell/email records he's been protecting subpoenaed. That's the main the second is he has at least 2 guys who are now suspended indefinitely without pay. That should be his biggest worry if they testify or worse sell their stories to replace their income, and stories sell better the more far fetched they are so safe to expect a bit a hyperbole if they go that route.
 
Right now the NFLPA is his Obi-Wan aka his only hope. Additional leaks or clarification or confirmation he exchanged memorabilia for favors will just further tarnish his legacy and maybe really hit his pocket if it costs him any endorsement money which will make 4 games look like a drop in the bucket.
 

PedroKsBambino

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Apr 17, 2003
24,346
Marciano490 said:
 
The texts between the employees were found by PW to be sufficient to create an inference of guilt which led them to request Brady's phone records.  He refused to comply with that request. Whether there is or isn't anything inculpatory on his phone is irrelevant.  And, frankly, the absence of any inculpatory evidence on his phone is meaningless.  Unless he has a text to the ballboys saying "hey, remember not to go below 12.5! :)" there's nothing in his phone that's going to move the needle.
 
That's just not so; the report never claims that there was sufficient evidence from the employee texts alone. 
 
The report specifically cites the refusal as part of the evidence for concluding it is 'more likely than not' that tampering occurred, which relies on the reality that the absence of turning them over creates uncertainty as to their contents.
 
You can obviously have whatever view you choose on the implications of the texts, but you are badly misunderstanding the report itself.
 

uncannymanny

Well-Known Member
Gold Supporter
SoSH Member
Jan 12, 2007
7,799
Comfortably Lomb said:
 
It's not really an argument, it's an embarrassment. The priorities of the league office are just that out of whack.
Finally someone gets it.
 

dcmissle

Deflatigator
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Aug 4, 2005
28,269
Understand that the other owners will understand only if and when TB gets into litigation mode. They don't pay attention to this stuff like we do. They are viewing this from 38,000 feet and probably inclined to give Wells the benefit of the doubt.

Kraft needs Brady to make the case Kraft will likely never have the opportunity to make. If the Brady penalties are overturned, Kraft will have the owners' ears.
 

Eddie Jurak

Go Leafs Go
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 12, 2002
27,989
Melrose, MA
ForKeeps said:
 
So what do you think the penalty would have been if they refused to cooperate entirely? Three first round picks and 5 million dollars?
Or if there was conclusive evidence? Or if BB/BK were found to have known?
 

Strike4

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 19, 2005
1,573
Portland, Maine
I'm really interested to see if the Patriots' mastery of strategy on the field will transfer to this off-the-field situation.  We've seen feints but nothing heavy as of yet.
 

Eck'sSneakyCheese

Member
SoSH Member
May 11, 2011
9,296
NH
I would love to be a fly on the wall at the Brady household. I desperately want to see a profanity laden tirade by Brady on every channel.
 

dcmissle

Deflatigator
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Aug 4, 2005
28,269
rodderick said:
You guys may think I'm bullshitting when I say this, but I'm fucking done with the NFL.
The best remedy is revenge, my friend. Like some more rings.

There is a natural life cycle to things. The 15-year run we have just enjoyed is very difficult to sustain, and almost impossible to sustain absent an energy boost.

Kraft/BB/TB have just been administered the equivalent of 25,000 gallons of 5 Hour Energy.

Climb above for the ride.
 

E5 Yaz

Transcends message boarding
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Apr 25, 2002
66,277
Oregon
Eck'sSneakyCheese said:
I would love to be a fly on the wall at the Brady household. I desperately want to see a profanity laden tirade by Brady on every channel.
 
His would be nothing compared to Giselle's
 

PedroKsBambino

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Apr 17, 2003
24,346
dcmissle said:
The best remedy is revenge, my friend. Like some more rings.

There is a natural life cycle to things. The 15-year run we have just enjoyed is very difficult to sustain, and almost impossible to sustain absent an energy boost.

Kraft/BB/TB have just been administered the equivalent of 25,000 gallons of 5 Hour Energy.

Climb above for the ride.
 
I picture Ernie Adams cackling and saying "ok, now the gloves come OFF!"
 

simplyeric

Member
SoSH Member
Feb 14, 2006
12,707
Richmond, VA
PedroKsBambino said:
 
Believe under league bylaws his practical appeal is to other owners to throw Goodell out, then seek a rehearing with the replacement. Then, I think he's left with trying an antitrust theory in federal court---though it's hard to see what he'd be arguing here.    Al Davis tried to move the team and was constrained in doing so, hence the antitrust issue he ultimately won on.  Not sure offhand how you'd get there via a discipline penalty, but smart lawyers will come up with something if they really try hard enough.  I don't think there's really anything viable there.
 
Kraft seemed to have already said he'd abide by any punishment, though, so I don't think any of those will happen.
He could argue that, if there was a competing league, he'd be able to tell Goodell to fuck off and flip his team over to the other league?
 

Kull

wannabe merloni
SoSH Member
Nov 1, 2005
1,555
El Paso, TX
Eddie Jurak said:
Or if there was conclusive evidence? Or if BB/BK were found to have known?
 
At this point I'm just glad they didn't strip the Pats of the super Bowl win. Unfortunately the weasel wording of the Troy Vincent penalty announcement makes it pretty clear that since new "infractions" (i.e. unproven allegations) will receive penalties that are multiplied by previous infractions, the Patriots are probably only a year or two away from losing all 4.
 

Rosey Ruzicka

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 16, 2013
206
The moral of the story is its better to be mediocre and well liked, than exceptional and hated by insecure, ego driven, wealthy people.
 

Andrew

broke his neck in costa rica
SoSH Member
Jan 20, 2006
12,013
Western Massachusetts
DBB23 said:
Brady will appeal and it may* drop 1 or 2 games. To the point most of the first 2 pages are asking for law suits. Brady is in an Arod HR bonus situation, if he sues which Ill take bets he will not. He will open himself to questioning under oath and to having his cell/email records he's been protecting subpoenaed. That's the main the second is he has at least 2 guys who are now suspended indefinitely without pay. That should be his biggest worry if they testify or worse sell their stories to replace their income, and stories sell better the more far fetched they are so safe to expect a bit a hyperbole if they go that route.
 
Right now the NFLPA is his Obi-Wan aka his only hope. Additional leaks or clarification or confirmation he exchanged memorabilia for favors will just further tarnish his legacy and maybe really hit his pocket if it costs him any endorsement money which will make 4 games look like a drop in the bucket.
 
Unless he, you know, actually didn't order anyone to deflate footballs?