#DFG: Canceling the Noise

Is there any level of suspension that you would advise Tom to accept?


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SeoulSoxFan

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Perhaps Wells knew that a big Pats rebuttal was coming & tried jump ahead of the story by holding that very unusual & passionate (defensive?) conference. 
 
Deflator "shiny object" aside, it is very clear NFL & Wells selectively chose the path towards a "prejudged" conclusion. Like a corrupt judge not allowing legal & key witnesses/tesimonials to influence the outcome. 
 
It's a mud fight & Goodell has the most to lose now, not the Pats.
 

nighthob

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NortheasternPJ said:
No matter what happens from here, I can't believe what a giant dumpster fire this is for the league from the "tainted" AFC Championship/Super Bowl Weeks/Super Bowl/Super Bowl MVP...
This is the real point that has to making a lot of owners who are probably otherwise indifferent to the Ginger Knish really angry. The league office ultimately tainted one of the three biggest games of the year and permanently tarnished what had been one of the best Superbowls ever. That's real economic harm to the league, even if it is minor. The Artless Roger may think that he's the newfound popular kid on playground for beating up the Patriots, but I'd wager that his already precarious position just became hopeless and that Johnson and Irsay won't be able to drum up a lot of support for him.
 

joe dokes

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Shelterdog said:
 
You're not giving Wells enough credit.  There's no way the report bends over backwards to nail Brady, NFL superstar, unless the client is completely on board. 
 Even if Wells did bend over backwards at the NFLs behest, the best he could do was "generally aware" and nothing against the team or Evil BB. He hands Goodell a 3-joint seller and Goodell responds with the chair. I dont think Wells had any input in the punishment.
 

Shelterdog

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dcmissle said:
Is the marching band on the field during the return? Cause that would require Roger to throw Wells and Vincent under the bus.

More likely this will go to Henderson, who will stamp the passport.
 
I'm missing the Henderson reference.
 
Anyhow, I don't think Kraft is trying to convince Roger to hit reset--he's trying to get the other owner's to take this out of Roger's hands by saying that this means war, that this is a clusterfuck, etc.  And you know, he's going to have some credibility after taking his Spygate beating like a man, being a league guy, defending the league and commissioner in public after Ray Rice, leaving his dying wife's side to help with the labor negotiations, etc. 
 

SeoulSoxFan

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At this point, isn't it clear the one who has done the most to tarnish (or did the least to prevent the tarnishing of) the integrity of the league is Goodell?
 

sodenj5

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DrewDawg said:
 
It says right in the rebuttal, that after reviewing ALL the texts on the phone, not just the few pulled out, that he had a habit of referring back to something discussed previously. Every text didn't respond to the immediately preceding text.
 
 
Pronouns are a dangerous thing.
 

DJnVa

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And, in the end there's not ONE SINGLE text referring to Brady wanting the balls UNDER 12.5. With everything else discussed in those texts (shoes, one dude's wife, etc.) if there was this big thing about deflating the balls after they were approved, there would be more than the nickname. One, "Christ, what if I get caught?" or something. As the rebuttal says, the Wells report took info stating that Brady likes the balls at 12.5 or so and turned that into him actually wanting them lower.
 
There's no there there.
 

tims4wins

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nighthob said:
This is the real point that has to making a lot of owners who are probably otherwise indifferent to the Ginger Knish really angry. The league office ultimately tainted one of the three biggest games of the year and permanently tarnished what had been one of the best Superbowls ever. That's real economic harm to the league, even if it is minor. The Artless Roger may think that he's the newfound popular kid on playground for beating up the Patriots, but I'd wager that his already precarious position just became hopeless and that Johnson and Irsay won't be able to drum up a lot of support for him.
 
And as was discussed yesterday, instead of taking the David Stern approach of trying to sweep the whole affair under the rug in order to protect THE INTEGRITY OF THE GAME, he throw gasoline on the fire - he INCREASED questions regarding the INTEGRITY OF THE GAME. All the NFL had to say was, nothing to see here, the Pats are obviously under scrutiny because of SpyGate, and they did nothing wrong. Instead... this.
 

tims4wins

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SeoulSoxFan said:
At this point, isn't it clear the one who has done the most to tarnish (or did the least to prevent the tarnishing of) the integrity of the league is Goodell?
 
 
YES
 
Edit: and this is what Kraft is going to try to prove to his fellow owners
 
Edit 2: bravo on doritodinkgate thread title
 

dcmissle

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Shelterdog said:
 
I'm missing the Henderson reference.
 
Anyhow, I don't think Kraft is trying to convince Roger to hit reset--he's trying to get the other owner's to take this out of Roger's hands by saying that this means war, that this is a clusterfuck, etc.  And you know, he's going to have some credibility after taking his Spygate beating like a man, being a league guy, defending the league and commissioner in public after Ray Rice, leaving his dying wife's side to help with the labor negotiations, etc. 
Harold Henderson, go-to arbitrator, most recently used in AP case and reversed by Doty.

You make a very good point about Kraft having cred as a stand up League guy. But this whole presentation this morning is kind of crazy, no, especially coming from Kraft? It's a guy who wears English suits wearing a motorcycle jacket.

Unless Kraft is trying to convince them that he IS crazy (and might sue), I don't get the point the fireworks this morning, though they are amusing.
 

Captaincoop

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DrewDawg said:
And, in the end there's not ONE SINGLE text referring to Brady wanting the balls UNDER 12.5. With everything else discussed in those texts (shoes, one dude's wife, etc.) if there was this big thing about deflating the balls after they were approved, there would be more than the nickname. One, "Christ, what if I get caught?" or something. As the rebuttal says, the Wells report took info stating that Brady likes the balls at 12.5 or so and turned that into him actually wanting them lower.
 
There's no there there.
 
Absolutely correct.
 
Through this whole circus, this is the most important thing.  There is simply not enough evidence pointing to a violation here, let alone a violation that Brady knew about.
 

NortheasternPJ

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Captaincoop said:
 
Absolutely correct.
 
Through this whole circus, this is the most important thing.  There is simply not enough evidence pointing to a violation here, let alone a violation that Brady knew about.
 
There would be if the Patriots cooperated! 
 

Hendu for Kutch

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I can't believe that people think "deflate" is an outrageous term from someone who says "dorito dink". 
 
Are we to assume that there has been a delicious crunchy cheesy set of genitals in the Patriots organization for years? 
 
"It's in the text!!!  Who talks like that?!?"
 
M

MentalDisabldLst

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New thread subhead: "Deflate-Gateway To Hell".

this has a very Ghostbusters-esque feel to it. So is Wells the gatekeeper, the key master, or Zool?
 

Morgan's Magic Snowplow

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dcmissle said:
I think they have blown their chances for a reduction up, and have to assume the are content doing so.

Some people have speculated this is a preclude to depose Goodell in the upcoming meetings. But Bob Kraft is channeling Bulworth and Jonathan Tony Montana. This is not the way you persuade fellow owners. Sure this reflects poorly on Goodell, but it also reflects poorly on the League, and guys like Mara, Rooney -- and Kraft, for that matter -- think they are the League. At the very least they are responsible for the League, so it reflects poorly on them.

What this might do is buy some breathing space against further stings and set-ups. When a target becomes this notorious, everybody watches. The target then becomes dangerous as a target.
 
I doubt its a prelude to deposing Goodell.  That's unlikely to be in the cards for all sorts of reasons.
 
But I do think the audience for this is other owners.  And basically what Kraft is saying is, "I understand that you want us to just go quietly for the good of the league's image but this is important enough to us that we're willing, not necessarily to burn down the house, but to light some of the furniture on fire.  And, by the way, we've got a fuckton of matches and kindling in reserve."
 
The desired result might be pressure from the owners on Goodell to reduce the penalties.  Or at the very least they want to establish that the Patriots won't stand for any of this nonsense in the future, which is a real threat given the precedent regarding repeat offender penalties.
 

DJnVa

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Over/under on number of days before we get:
 
1--a new member with Dorito Dink as a handle
 
2--someone gets a Dorito Dink tag under their name
 

Marciano490

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Hendu for Kutch said:
I can't believe that people think "deflate" is an outrageous term from someone who says "dorito dink". 
 
Are we to assume that there has been a delicious crunchy cheesy set of genitals in the Patriots organization for years? 
 
"It's in the text!!!  Who talks like that?!?"
 
 
Marciano490 said:
So, can we analyze why dorito dink?  Does he have fromunda cheese?  Is it oblong? 
 
We're brothers.  Getting at the real questions.
 

Tim Salmon

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DrewDawg said:
 
It says right in the rebuttal, that after reviewing ALL the texts on the phone, not just the few pulled out, that he had a habit of referring back to something discussed previously. Every text didn't respond to the immediately preceding text.
 
 
Right, but it doesn't address the timing of the subsequent texts.  If you believe the rebuttal, McNally made a comment about how "Tom sucks" and he's going to make the ball a "balloon."  Then Jastremski responds: "Talked to him last night. He actually brought you up and said you must have a lot of stress trying to get them done..."
 
According to the Wells Report, 29 seconds later, with no intervening calls texts from McNally, Jastremski writes:
 
Jastremski: I told him it was. He was right though…
Jastremski: I checked some of the balls this morn… The refs fucked us…a few of then were at almost 16
 
Why would Jastremski interject a complete non-sequitur about the stress of getting "them" (ticket sales) done, only to immediately revert back to talking about ball pressure?
 

TFP

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DrewDawg said:
Over/under on number of days before we get:
 
1--a new member with Dorito Dink as a handle
 
2--someone gets a Dorito Dink tag under their name
Under.
 

ivanvamp

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Just finished the whole thing.  You know, we can laugh at the "deflator" bit, but on the whole, that rebuttal absolutely kicked the crap out of the Wells report.
 

TFP

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PhilPlantier said:
 
Right, but it doesn't address the timing of the subsequent texts.  If you believe the rebuttal, McNally made a comment about how "Tom sucks" and he's going to make the ball a "balloon."  Then Jastremski responds: "Talked to him last night. He actually brought you up and said you must have a lot of stress trying to get them done..."
 
According to the Wells Report, 29 seconds later, with no intervening calls texts from McNally, Jastremski writes:
 
Jastremski: I told him it was. He was right though…
Jastremski: I checked some of the balls this morn… The refs fucked us…a few of then were at almost 16
 
Why would Jastremski interject a complete non-sequitur about the stress of getting "them" (ticket sales) done, only to immediately revert back to talking about ball pressure?
Have people ever texted before? I've had text conversations with friends that had 2 to 3 different streams of thought going at once, and would seamlessly switch and intermingle the two.
 

nighthob

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Marciano490 said:
So, can we analyze why dorito dink?  Does he have fromunda cheese?  Is it oblong?
Cheetos are oblong, Doritos are triangular, corny and cheesy.
 

sodenj5

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DrewDawg said:
 
This is NOT a gotcha question, but were you a Wells fan during the Dolphins investigation?
 
We don't need to derail this thread with Incoginito. Literally every time I tried to bring up the point of how every teammate and coach defended Incognito as doing nothing wrong or outside of the realm of "normal" in an NFL locker room, I was absolutely skewered.
 
It's hilarious seeing people bringing up quotes from Jim Turner as the beacon of truth suddenly.
 

ivanvamp

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SeoulSoxFan said:
Perhaps Wells knew that a big Pats rebuttal was coming & tried jump ahead of the story by holding that very unusual & passionate (defensive?) conference. 
 
Deflator "shiny object" aside, it is very clear NFL & Wells selectively chose the path towards a "prejudged" conclusion. Like a corrupt judge not allowing legal & key witnesses/tesimonials to influence the outcome. 
 
It's a mud fight & Goodell has the most to lose now, not the Pats.
 
I agree with that last part.  What's the worst that happens to the Patriots now?  They've already received their punishment - a severe one at that.  If it turns out that this *really* happened as Wells imagines, so what?  72% of the country (according to that ESPN poll) already thinks the Pats are habitual cheaters.  They already believe the Pats did something nefarious.  What's to lose?  
 

RedOctober3829

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Captaincoop said:
 
Absolutely correct.
 
Through this whole circus, this is the most important thing.  There is simply not enough evidence pointing to a violation here, let alone a violation that Brady knew about.
But, but, they Stonewall Jackson'ed the NFL.  That means they are automatically guilty and the penalty is the guillotine.
 

pappymojo

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Hendu for Kutch said:
I can't believe that people think "deflate" is an outrageous term from someone who says "dorito dink". 
 
Are we to assume that there has been a delicious crunchy cheesy set of genitals in the Patriots organization for years? 
 
"It's in the text!!!  Who talks like that?!?"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGM0wbb5AJY
 

bluefenderstrat

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From the Patriots' report: "The texts that form the heart of this report show two persons with quite uninhibited texting history — and yet NOT A SINGLE TEXT REFERS TO DEFLATING FOOTBALLS TO A LEVEL BELOW REGULATION, TO DEFLATING FOOTBALLS AFTER THE REFEREE’S INSPECTION, OR TO ANY DIRECTIONS FROM MR. BRADY — OR EVEN ANY BELIEF THAT TOM BRADY WOULD PREFER TO USE BELOW REGULATION FOOTBALLS." 

 
No reference anywhere to balls below 12.5, no proof that balls were tampered with.   
 

Morgan's Magic Snowplow

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The Four Peters said:
Have people ever texted before? I've had text conversations with friends that had 2 to 3 different streams of thought going at once, and would seamlessly switch and intermingle the two.
 
Yeah, this seems normal to me.
 
It also shows why parsing every word in a text conversation and then ignoring any of the supporting commentary from the texters themselves about meaning is a fairly unconvincing way to present evidence. 
 

DJnVa

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PhilPlantier said:
 
 
Why would Jastremski interject a complete non-sequitur about the stress of getting "them" (ticket sales) done, only to immediately revert back to talking about ball pressure?
 
I don't know. Because it's not me.
 
But I do know that if someone looked at my texts it's not going to paint a perfect narrative of things. There are inside jokes. There are back to back texts referring to different things. It's the nature of the medium.
 
I might be talking with Matt in one text, but at the same time have a group text that also includes Matt, and I jump back and forth. Who knows? Certainly not someone not involved in the conversation.
 
Think about it--we're in this place because someone is trying to interpret someone else's texts.
 

Kenny F'ing Powers

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I used to be a big wrestling fan when I was a kid. Something on the internet caught my eye and I spent the last hour looking at old WWE wrestling shit. I came back to this thread and, after reading the most recent 6-7 posts, had to wrap my head around the fact that this was, in fact, real life and not fake.
 
It really highlighted the absurdity of this whole fucking thing.
 

nighthob

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The Four Peters said:
Have people ever texted before? I've had text conversations with friends that had 2 to 3 different streams of thought going at once, and would seamlessly switch and intermingle the two.
I mean seriously, I see this sort of stuff and I can't imagine that these people have ever conducted text chats before. When I text with clients we continuously weave between professional matters and different informal discussions. I can't tell you how many times I've accidentally misread one because I lost track of which thread the client was on when they sent it.
 

Shelterdog

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dcmissle said:
Harold Henderson, go-to arbitrator, most recently used in AP case and reversed by Doty.

You make a very good point about Kraft having cred as a stand up League guy. But this whole presentation this morning is kind of crazy, no, especially coming from Kraft? It's a guy who wears English suits wearing a motorcycle jacket.

Unless Kraft is trying to convince them that he IS crazy (and might sue), I don't get the point the fireworks this morning, though they are amusing.
 
I think that's precisely the point--I think he's going to tell the other owners at their next meeting that he cannot live with this witch hunt and this draconian punishment and that if the owners don't walk it back somehow  he's suing the ever living shit out of the league for some kind of breach of contract claim against the league  based on Goodell's actions and the complaint is going to be filed publicly and it will  make NFL headquarters look like a bunch of assholes . 
 

Doctor G

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Bob420 said:
The idea that JJ was referring to someone else and not Brady and possibly something else besides doing something to the footballs seems a little far fetched as well.

Mcnally: "Tom sucks..I'm going to make the next ball a freakin balloon"

Less than two minutes later:

JJ: "Talked to him last night. He actually brought you up and said you must have a lot of stress trying to get them done"

That doesn't mean they were doing anything illegal but seems like a real stretch there.
Mcnally in this text is speaking  in what he interprets to be the voice of the Referee pregame. Sort of like people parody the nasty teacher  in junior high.
 

Mooch

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In Brady's first game back, he should use "deflate" as an audible. Master level trolling.
 

TFP

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nighthob said:
I mean seriously, I see this sort of stuff and I can't imagine that these people have ever conducted text chats before. When I text with clients we continuously weave between professional matters and different informal discussions. I can't tell you how many times I've accidentally misread one because I lost track of which thread the client was on when they sent it.
This also has me realizing how terrified I'd be if my text history became public. I do 75% of my communicating with people that way, and it's probably gibberish to anyone not involved in any of the conversations (and even to some of them). God forbid the group texts between my friends and I got out. 
 

joe dokes

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DrewDawg said:
 
I don't know. Because it's not me.
 
But I do know that if someone looked at my texts it's not going to paint a perfect narrative of things. There are inside jokes. There are back to back texts referring to different things. It's the nature of the medium.
 
I might be talking with Matt in one text, but at the same time have a group text that also includes Matt, and I jump back and forth. Who knows? Certainly not someone not involved in the conversation.
 
Think about it--we're in this place because someone is trying to interpret someone else's texts.
 
 
Hell, there are some threads on this very site that are *supposed* to be about one topic that have all the linearity (if it isn't a word it should be) of a Dali painting or a Fellini movie.
 

Tim Salmon

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The Four Peters said:
Have people ever texted before? I've had text conversations with friends that had 2 to 3 different streams of thought going at once, and would seamlessly switch and intermingle the two.
To each his own.  I read the whole thing and thought it was an awesome takedown of the "science" and assumptions in the Wells Report.  But I don't think the alternative explanations of the texts pass the smell test.
 
I think this line undercuts the "texter with ADD" defense:
 
Jastremski: I told him it was. He was right though…
 
The first sentence only makes sense if it refers back to the "stress" line.  The second sentence only makes sense if you read it in conjunction with the following text, which refers back to complaints about ball pressure:
 
Jastremski: I checked some of the balls this morn… The refs fucked us…a few of then were at almost 16
 
I text fairly often, but I never commingle two unrelated thoughts on unrelated subjects in a single text while using confusing pronouns.
 

DJnVa

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The info about the Pats having some kind of proof of the Colts ball boys having needles during a game with Jacksonville.
 
Is Jacksonville an ally here?
 

E5 Yaz

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The "deflate as weight loss" stupidity will be latched on by media as a reason to disregard the entire rebuttal. Already hearing it on ESPN
 

OnWisc

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joe dokes said:
 
I dont know when in the process Wells realized -- if he ever did -- that the report was so thin (to say the least). But I also think that even Wells was surprised that his conclusions -- as poorly supported as they were -- that Brady was "generally aware" (not to mention that Kraft and BB weren't involved) -- would lead to Goodell to unleash the hounds. Not all cops are happy when they bust a guy for selling loose joints and the judge gives them the electric chair.
 
Lets say the only penalty here was Brady or the team hit for 25K. Is any of this happening?
I think this is a good point. But at the same time, isn't it on Wells that he arrived at those poorly supported conclusions in the first place? The fact that the NFL had a weak case alone didn't doom the report. The fact that Wells tailored his findings to support the NFL's weak case doomed the report.
 

tims4wins

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I enjoyed this part
 


Once the footballs are taken to the field they are to be taken to the area adjacent to the replay booth. The outdoor security camera shows that is exactly what Mr. McNally did. Anyone actually concerned about the location of the game footballs could simply have checked that location. The security video shows Mr. Anderson coming out to the field and going there. Not surprisingly, he found Mr. McNally was there with the bags of footballs. No one then reprimanded Mr. McNally for having taken the footballs without permission or accompaniment, although the report would have one now believe that officials thought Mr. McNally had done something wrong by taking the footballs himself. No official chastised him; no one re-checked football psi; no official suggested using the back-up footballs. Mr. McNally’s departure from the sitting room in the Officials’ Locker Room, and his walk from there towards the field, are all on the security video. His walk was not in any way hurried or furtive or secretive. Nothing about his activities supports a conclusion that he was carrying out a secret plan to deflate footballs.