#DFG: Canceling the Noise

Is there any level of suspension that you would advise Tom to accept?


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j44thor

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The single most damaging text I see is the one about JJ giving JM a "big needle" and JM responding " the only thing deflating on Sun is Brady's passer rating".  That one is a tough one to swallow if as the Pats email chain confirms McNally is only responsible for "schleping" the balls to and from the field.  I understand this had nothing to do with the AFC champ game but that is close to a smoking gun.
 
One question I have is where did the two gauges come from?  I believe NE supplies at least one gauge but do they supply both?  It would be far, far easier to manipulate the gauge to make the balls appear 12.5 when in actuality they were 12.2 or so, rather than trying to deflate each ball one by one after the ref check.  If NE only supplied one gauge that might explain why the two gauges were so far off.
 
Obviously there is zero evidence about this being the case outside of two gauges being quite different so clearly I'm just throwing this out there but I'd be curious to see it disproved.
 

dcmissle

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lambeau said:
What do the lawyers think of NFLPA's chance in court of getting Goodell removed as hearing officer of the appeal? While the CBA clearly gives him that right, are his credibility and partiality being suspect sufficient grounds?
Or is this more likely just laying the groundwork to help get Goodell's eventual decision vacated?
I think the latter as well. Suing before Goodell reviews the case to prevent him from doing so certainly would be a bold stroke. What Florio ignores is the time that would chew up. The lawsuit in the first instance may well not succeed. If it doesn't, the matter then get kicked back for Goodell for review and decision, and then back to court on a move to vacate Goodell's decision assuming it does not go Tom's way.

It would be very ambitious to get all this done in the next 3 months, and late August is a hard deadline if Tom does not want to miss any games.
 

Super Nomario

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j44thor said:
One question I have is where did the two gauges come from?  I believe NE supplies at least one gauge but do they supply both?  It would be far, far easier to manipulate the gauge to make the balls appear 12.5 when in actuality they were 12.2 or so, rather than trying to deflate each ball one by one after the ref check.  If NE only supplied one gauge that might explain why the two gauges were so far off.
Both gauges were Anderson's.
 

Ed Hillel

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j44thor said:
The single most damaging text I see is the one about JJ giving JM a "big needle" and JM responding " the only thing deflating on Sun is Brady's passer rating".  That one is a tough one to swallow if as the Pats email chain confirms McNally is only responsible for "schleping" the balls to and from the field.  I understand this had nothing to do with the AFC champ game but that is close to a smoking gun.
 
One question I have is where did the two gauges come from?  I believe NE supplies at least one gauge but do they supply both?  It would be far, far easier to manipulate the gauge to make the balls appear 12.5 when in actuality they were 12.2 or so, rather than trying to deflate each ball one by one after the ref check.  If NE only supplied one gauge that might explain why the two gauges were so far off.
 
Obviously there is zero evidence about this being the case outside of two gauges being quite different so clearly I'm just throwing this out there but I'd be curious to see it disproved.
Well, according to the rebuttal, the needle comment was in reference to JJ having to bring a needle to McNally to give to the refs. In the Wells Report, it establishes that Brady wanted JJ or McNally to bring the refs the rule in which it stated footballs could be 12.5. It would make sense that McNally would bring needles to the refs and ask them to deflate the balls to 12.5, so that joke would still follow.
 

koufax32

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lambeau said:
What do the lawyers think of NFLPA's chance in court of getting Goodell removed as hearing officer of the appeal? While the CBA clearly gives him that right, are his credibility and partiality being suspect sufficient grounds?
Or is this more likely just laying the groundwork to help get Goodell's eventual decision vacated?
Not a lawyer but wanted to piggyback on this. I'm on my phone right now so I can't link the article. Forbes.com has a story (I'm sure it's elsewhere too) dated May 6th that was referenced by a local attorney as a way for Brady to sue for an independent arbitrator. The MO Supreme Court ruled RG cannot be judge, jury, executioner and hearer of appeals. Surely this 10 day old precedent would be used by Brady's team. The question is whether or not the court at which their motion was filed would acknowledge that as legit precedent and give it the cull weight that precedent rulings typically get.
 

Morgan's Magic Snowplow

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RG33

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Morgan's Magic Snowplow said:
IANAL but this makes Wells look really bad. They agreed not to do second interviews barring extraordinary circumstances, tried to play the gotcha game anyway, and were rebuffed.
Killing the Pats for noncooperation may have served the league's interest but it also helped paper over PW's own duplicity and incompetence on this point.
Yes, it is really hard to read those emails, see the fact that there were pre-made agreements about the # of interviews, see the detailed back-and-forth about McNally, and then slam the Patriots for being "uncooperative".

It was also interesting to see the direct reference to the fact that McNally had 95 seconds in the restroom to allegedly manipulate all of the Patriots balls to precise PSI levels, and that Anderson and his 3-4 cohorts couldn't even test all 12 of the Colts balls in 15 minutes of halftime.
 

Gorton Fisherman

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Lots of people keep referencing the Patriots' "history of cheating", and their status as "repeat offenders". The NFL explicitly referenced this in justifying such an extremely harsh punishment. So: I don't get it. Under the Belichick regime, the Patriots have been formally accused of cheating exactly twice: once for this Deflate-gate nonsense, and once for Spygate. Two times over fifteen years. There are other teams in the league who have been sanctioned by the league more often than that over the same period, yet they are not known as "repeat offenders". What's up with that?

So here's another thing that really chaps my ass about the "Spygate" discussion. It seems that most people, including lots of people that should know better (e.g. various sports journalists), don't really understand what the rule the Patriots were busted for violating. Most seem to think that it was for "taping defensive signals". The problem is, there is not now and never has been an NFL rule against taping signals. What people are remembering is the memo that Ray Anderson sent out prior to that season, which does reference taping signals. However, Andersen was wrong, there was no such NFL rule against taping signals. And Anderson did not have the authority to just make up new rules on the fly by including them in a memo. Rules must be voted on and agreed to by all 32 teams.

No, the rule that the Patriots actually violated in Spygate was purely about performing videotaping from a prohibited location on the field. That's it. That's the whole thing. It's amazing to me how many people, even some that are otherwise predisposed towards the Patriots, don't seem to understand this fundamental fact.
 

bluefenderstrat

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Kraft has to explore any options regarding the team sanctions at this point, right? I mean, irreparable damage has and will continur to be done to his business as a result of this sting operation.
 

LMontro

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SeoulSoxFan said:
I am incensed about this now that full context is coming to light. Wells can choke on his own weasely mustache. They fucking agreed to a single interview and had the text messages.
To me, Volin has fully crossed over to the CHB/Borges land. His take on this is more asinine than even the brain dead ESPN talking heads. My suspicion is he's angling for a national job - like Reiss and Bedard before him - but sadly he is 1/10th the reporter they are. Fuck Volin with a chopstick.
 
Amen.  Volin is one of the worst.  He was a gossipy ****** trying to create an issue earlier in the year "oooooh TB didn't give Jimmy a high-five!" and made up some thing about Vollmer moving to guard.  Also doesn't want to be confused by the "facts" of this case.   I do find it funny that he is hated by some of his fellow media members. 
 

Eddie Jurak

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Morgan's Magic Snowplow said:
IANAL but this makes Wells look really bad. They agreed not to do second interviews barring extraordinary circumstances, tried to play the gotcha game anyway, and were rebuffed.

Killing the Pats for noncooperation may have served the league's interest but it also helped paper over PW's own duplicity and incompetence on this point.
I hope they have more stuff like this to post over time.
 

lambeau

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The Peterson appeal took over 3 months (Nov 18 to Feb 26), AFTER which the NFL put him on the exempt list pending their  going to the appeals court to overturn his victory--they then relented on April 15 (face-saving?).
Can they keep Tom off the field with an appeal even if he successfully appeals Goodell's decision?
 

dcmissle

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lambeau said:
The Peterson appeal took over 3 months (Nov 18 to Feb 26), AFTER which the NFL put him on the exempt list pending their  going to the appeals court to overturn his victory--they then relented on April 15 (face-saving?).
Can they keep Tom off the field with an appeal even if he successfully appeals Goodell's decision?
Assuming he were to obtain a district court order reinstating him, my guess is no. He would face irreparable harm in that scenario; the League would not. If he is wrongfully suspended, he cannot be made entirely whole even if paid retroactively; he will have been deprived of playing in whatever games he misses. On the other hand, if the League were to prevail on the appeal, the suspension could kick in at that point. They want 4 games; whether those are the first four games of the season, a middle four, or the last four does not matter much. This also bears on the balance of hardship, which is another factor in analyzing this. More hardship falls on TB in wrongfully being sat down than on the NFL in having the suspension delayed
 

lambeau

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Thanks. I look forward to seeing him against the Steelers. I can't see him losing:
Jonathan Vilma admitted offering $10,000 for Favre's head, and his penalty was vacated because he wasn't waving cash during his exhortation, so it might have been just rhetoric--by that standard of guilt, how do they have TB?
Also, the Saints all lied repeatedly and massively for months in a huge coverup, and their suspensions were vacated because a suspension had never been given for obstruction of an investigation--so how can they start with TB?
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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lambeau said:
Thanks. I look forward to seeing him against the Steelers. I can't see him losing:
Jonathan Vilma admitted offering $10,000 for Favre's head, and his penalty was vacated because he wasn't waving cash during his exhortation, so it might have been just rhetoric--by that standard of guilt, how do they have TB?
Also, the Saints all lied repeatedly and massively for months in a huge coverup, and their suspensions were vacated because a suspension had never been given for obstruction of an investigation--so how can they start with TB?
Because the same idiots who penalized Vilma and the Saints initially are the ones penalizing Brady and the Patriots now.  The actions that eventually vacated the Vilma/Saints penalties (i.e. the appeals process) haven't happened yet in this case.  The lesson being Goodell and company haven't learned any lessons.
 

Gorton Fisherman

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You know what else sucks about Spygate? The name "Spygate". "Spying" would imply that you were surreptitiously or steathily recording someone using some kind of hidden camera or something. If the Patriots had installed a secret hidden camera in the opponents' locker room and were using it to record private conversations going on in there, that would indeed be "spying". What did the Patriots actually do? They had a team staff member standing on their own sideline holding a video camera, in public, in full view of 80,000 people in the stadium, NFL officials, NFL Films cameras, network TV cameras etc.  This staff member was pointing his video camera at the scoreboard and the opposing sideline, taping down-and-distance and defensive signals being made by the other teams' coaches (none of which is illegal).  These coaches were making their signals in a public space, in front of those same 80,000 people and TV cameras.  They have no reasonable expectation of privacy.  Furthermore, these coaches are fully aware that they are being observed.  That is why you will frequently see a coach or coordinator cover his mouth with a laminated sheet during a game broadcast.
 
Bottom line: if you publicly record a public event that includes persons in public view who are fully aware that they are being observed, that is not in any way, shape, or form, "spying".  So the term, "Spygate"?  I say: it's total bullcrap.
 

TheoShmeo

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ifmanis5 said:
The Pats lost the PR battle in the 2 weeks before the SB. Getting that back isn't even an option. We're too far down the road for that. Winning in court is all they have left on this matter.
Life is never that binary.
 
I mean, I agree with the general premise that the cynical and irresponsible leaks before the SB irrevocably damaged Tom, but I also think that he can still do himself some good long term by making people understand the very basic, and I think very compelling, points in his favor. 
 

Doctor G

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Yes, it is really hard to read those emails, see the fact that there were pre-made agreements about the # of interviews, see the detailed back-and-forth about McNally, and then slam the Patriots for being "uncooperative".

It was also interesting to see the direct reference to the fact that McNally had 95 seconds in the restroom to allegedly manipulate all of the Patriots balls to precise PSI levels, and that Anderson and his 3-4 cohorts couldn't even test all 12 of the Colts balls in 15 minutes of halftime.
The restroom in question is 6X10 with a sink an a toilet with I assume a privacy panel next to the toilet. so the only place you could do this is sitting on the toilet with I presume about 3 feet between you and the front wall. The Wells report  claims that it is relatively easy to do thirteen balls without removing them from the bag. there whole timing argument relies on the balls not being remove from the bag. They do not produce any evidence that they did their simulation on all 13 balls. It could be done that way but why would you if you were concerned with accuracy. They could have done their time simulation by simply reaching in and pulling out any ball , then it would be believable but still difficult
 
I reread the Wells report this morning and noticed two rather significant facts that I had missed the first time. One is that the Ravens were represented by an official who was questioned in the course of the investigation.
 
Why were the Ravens involved in an investigation which was the product of a complaint by the Colts?
Another  circumstance I overlooked previously was that the Patriots balls  and the Colts balls were different in preparation due to the  Pats having done all their prep on Saturday at the request of Brady. Whereas the Colts balls had been used in practice and exposed to sweat and sunlight which was the preferred prep method of the Colts  equipment manager.
 
So to an extent they were comparing apples and oranges.
 

Jettisoned

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TheoShmeo said:
Life is never that binary.
 
I mean, I agree with the general premise that the cynical and irresponsible leaks before the SB irrevocably damaged Tom, but I also think that he can still do himself some good long term by making people understand the very basic, and I think very compelling, points in his favor. 
 
I get the sense that you think that all this Pats hate is driven by the belief that they're cheaters, but that's not what's driving it.  The belief that the Pats are cheaters is driven by hatred of the Patriots.  None of these people care at all about the facts of this case, and trying to enlighten them about it is a waste of time.
 

RetractableRoof

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Doctor G said:
The restroom in question is 6X10 with a sink an a toilet with I assume a privacy panel next to the toilet. so the only place you could do this is sitting on the toilet with I presume about 3 feet between you and the front wall. The Wells report  claims that it is relatively easy to do thirteen balls without removing them from the bag. there whole timing argument relies on the balls not being remove from the bag. They do not produce any evidence that they did their simulation on all 13 balls. It could be done that way but why would you if you were concerned with accuracy.
 
I reread the Wells report this morning and noticed two rather significant facts that I had missed the first time. One is that the Ravens were represented by an official who was questioned in the course of the investigation.
 
Why were the Ravens involved in an investigation which was the product of a complaint by the Colts?
Another  circumstance I overlooked previously was that the Patriots balls  and the Colts balls were different in preparationdue to the  Pats having done all their prep on Saturday at the request of Brady. Whereas the Colts balls had been used in practice and exposed to sweat and sunlight which was the preferred prep method of the Colts  equipment manager.
 
So to an extent they were comparing apples and oranges.
I'm not arguing with your reading. BB can't go on national TV and say we work these balls over good before we give them to the ref's and in another breath say they were prepped the previous day.

I'm starting to get to where others have been already. There ARE 13 million discrepancies in the reports. As far as the public is concerned unless the impact is parsable in mini-bites and are significant it will be perceived as them trying to get off on technicalities.

The PR battle needs to waged this way. Spoon fed points with bigger impact rather than a rebuttal volume which will be read even less than the Wells report was.

And even then, the PR battle was lost when Mortenson tweeted his lie and it wasn't corrected.
 

E5 Yaz

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ifmanis5 said:
The Pats lost the PR battle in the 2 weeks before the SB. Getting that back isn't even an option. We're too far down the road for that. Winning in court is all they have left on this matter.
 
Bingo.
 

Marbleheader

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That's where the NFL is complicit in this, during those two weeks they did absolutely nothing but leak misinformation. They could have easily shot down the 11/12 2psi report, but they let it linger while the team was preparing for the Super Bowl.
 

OnWisc

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You know what else sucks about Spygate? The name "Spygate". "Spying" would imply that you were surreptitiously or steathily recording someone using some kind of hidden camera or something. If the Patriots had installed a secret hidden camera in the opponents' locker room and were using it to record private conversations going on in there, that would indeed be "spying". What did the Patriots actually do? They had a team staff member standing on their own sideline holding a video camera, in public, in full view of 80,000 people in the stadium, NFL officials, NFL Films cameras, network TV cameras etc.  This staff member was pointing his video camera at the scoreboard and the opposing sideline, taping down-and-distance and defensive signals being made by the other teams' coaches (none of which is illegal).  These coaches were making their signals in a public space, in front of those same 80,000 people and TV cameras.  They have no reasonable expectation of privacy.  Furthermore, these coaches are fully aware that they are being observed.  That is why you will frequently see a coach or coordinator cover his mouth with a laminated sheet during a game broadcast.
 
Bottom line: if you publicly record a public event that includes persons in public view who are fully aware that they are being observed, that is not in any way, shape, or form, "spying".  So the term, "Spygate"?  I say: it's total bullcrap.
The term Spygate is bullshit because it implies something along the lines of the Patriots acquiring prohibited footage in a manner that prominently involves the Spygate hotel, which to my knowledge doesn't even exist.
 

bankshot1

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The impact of the Pats response to the Wells report appears to have been minimal, and unfortunately diminished by the easily parodied deflator/dieting construct. The PR war was lost early on, and probably will never be regained. The easy story here for lazy journalists and wannbe journalists is to feed the Pats haters, so they go with the the Pats cheat, they always look for an edge, and will always push the envelope or deflate the football.
 
IMO only a full legal exoneration may negate that, but that seems unlikely.
 
IMO if the Pats want to swing sentiment to their side, they should put on a dog and pony a show. Not a written one, but a made for TV special.
 
Produce a video response/ made for ESPN rebuttal to the Wells report with the aim of putting things in context, examining all aspects of the charges, rebutting them or admitting there is some smoke, and then absolutely trash the commissioners office on every possible basis.
 
Invite journalists to pose questions, and for fun include Kravitz, Doyle along with some national names for gravitas. If there is no guilt be as open as is legally advisable but go for Goodell's jugular and embarrass him on a forum that people will actually pay attention to.
 
Unless there is some sign Goodell might want to get reasonable on penalties it may be time to go nuclear.  
 

Ed Hillel

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Marbleheader said:
That's where the NFL is complicit in this, during those two weeks they did absolutely nothing but leak misinformation. They could have easily shot down the 11/12 2psi report, but they let it linger while the team was preparing for the Super Bowl.
 
This is the part that seems legally actionable to me, provided the Patriots can establish it was an NFL source that leaked the information (say, Kensil). That's actual malice. While the letter to the Patriots stating a football was at 10.1 PSI wasn't public, it should provide evidence of the mindset of the league office, as well. Is there another element for defamation missing?
 
1. False - Check, that's a given.
 
2. Publicized - The only question here, but seems like it would be met, provided a league official leaked information.
 
3. Actual Malice - Check, particularly given the private letter to the Patriots and the lack of a public remedial statement for nearly four months. Also assuming a league leak.
 
4. Damages - Check.
 
Is there someone who's practiced these cases that can speak more to the publication question? For example, is there an issue that the lies were about the footballs, as opposed to the Patriots themselves? The logical connection is obvious, but I'm not sure whether a defamatory statement has to be direct. It clearly implicates the team indirectly.
 

dcmissle

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Jack Del Rio calls the sanctions an overreaction, USC style. Interesting in a couple of respects (1) Pats have pretty much had their way with his defenses and teams, but even so he sees beyond that (2) puts the lie to the notion that nobody affiliated with the NFL can say a word in defense of the Pats out of fear for their lives. What we have heard so far -- from Eli and Elway and Jones and Blank -- is pretty much what they think. Again, we are in a bubble; few are rallying to us, and nobody affiliated with other teams is losing any sleep over this.
 

joe dokes

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ifmanis5 said:
The Pats lost the PR battle in the 2 weeks before the SB. Getting that back isn't even an option. We're too far down the road for that. Winning in court is all they have left on this matter.
 
It's also the *only* way to get any PR traction. It wont be alot, but its the only way they get any, short of ESPN doing a 180.  Nothing that comes *from* the patriots has any weight in the court of public opinion. A judge could call a press conference calling Goodell and Wells liars and the two could do a double suicide with a note admitting to a set-up, and 50.1% of "football nation" wouldn't change their opinion o the Cheatriots.
 

lexrageorge

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Gorton Fisherman said:
Lots of people keep referencing the Patriots' "history of cheating", and their status as "repeat offenders". The NFL explicitly referenced this in justifying such an extremely harsh punishment. So: I don't get it. Under the Belichick regime, the Patriots have been formally accused of cheating exactly twice: once for this Deflate-gate nonsense, and once for Spygate. Two times over fifteen years. There are other teams in the league who have been sanctioned by the league more often than that over the same period, yet they are not known as "repeat offenders". What's up with that?

So here's another thing that really chaps my ass about the "Spygate" discussion. It seems that most people, including lots of people that should know better (e.g. various sports journalists), don't really understand what the rule the Patriots were busted for violating. Most seem to think that it was for "taping defensive signals". The problem is, there is not now and never has been an NFL rule against taping signals. What people are remembering is the memo that Ray Anderson sent out prior to that season, which does reference taping signals. However, Andersen was wrong, there was no such NFL rule against taping signals. And Anderson did not have the authority to just make up new rules on the fly by including them in a memo. Rules must be voted on and agreed to by all 32 teams.

No, the rule that the Patriots actually violated in Spygate was purely about performing videotaping from a prohibited location on the field. That's it. That's the whole thing. It's amazing to me how many people, even some that are otherwise predisposed towards the Patriots, don't seem to understand this fundamental fact.
Your interpretation of the events is not entirely correct. The memo referenced the NFL's game procedure manual, which outlines policies to which teams are expected to comply.  The commissioner's office sent the memo out after receiving complaints about both the Patriots and other teams taping from the sideline.  Goodell approved the memo, so teams and coaches were actually obligated to follow the instructions outlined in the memo.  It was on Belichick to get clarification on any misunderstanding of the content of the memo.  
 
Belichick broke the letter and the intent of the memo in the Meadowlands.  However, as has been stated 1000000000000 times, there was no attempt to hide or cover up the actions of the sideline cameras.  And there was never any prohibition from taping from the coaches booth, from which Belichick could have gleaned the same exact information, albeit perhaps less conveniently.  
 
Try to explain these points to 99.9% of NFL fans results in a reply of "Belicheat".  But it's still worth clarifying the misconceptions.  
 

Ed Hillel

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dcmissle said:
Jack Del Rio calls the sanctions an overreaction, USC style. Interesting in a couple of respects (1) Pats have pretty much had their way with his defenses and teams, but even so he sees beyond that (2) puts the lie to the notion that nobody affiliated with the NFL can say a word in defense of the Pats out of fear for their lives. What we have heard so far -- from Eli and Elway and Jones and Blank -- is pretty much what they think. Again, we are in a bubble; few are rallying to us, and nobody affiliated with other teams is losing any sleep over this.
Carroll commented as well:
Seattle Seahawks Coach Pete Carroll, who also was inducted into the USC hall of fame Saturday, said he agreed with the NFL's decision to investigate the use of underinflated footballs by the Patriots.
 
“Nobody wants to play this game thinking that somebody has some kind of advantage, players and fans alike, and so they did the right thing in following up on it,” Carroll said.
 
"OH NO!"
 
He said this at his USC HoF induction, btw, though he didn't address the actual sanctions, just the process. Del Rio flat out said the investigation was beyond absurd and it should have been Goodell saying "don't you do that" behind the scenes, if anything. In fact, it seems like Del Rio said the rule itself is stupid. He thinks QBs should be allowed to have whatever air level they want.
 
What I am going to infer from Del Rio's comments is that Manning screws with the footballs, too. He coached with Denver. Why not, sounds good, let's run with it.
 
http://www.latimes.com/sports/sportsnow/la-sp-sn-jack-del-rio-deflategate-usc-20150517-story.html
 

SeoulSoxFan

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Speaking of coaches, Sean Peyton declines to comment: http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000493031/article/sean-payton-passes-on-comparing-deflategate-to-bountygate?campaign=Twitter_atn
 

Saints coach Sean Payton, who was suspended for the entire 2012 season, declined to comment when asked about the penalty the NFL levied on the Patriots -- including a $1 million fine, forfeiting two draft picks and a four-game suspension for Tom Brady.
 
"I knew that question was coming at some point," Payton said Saturday at the team's rookie minicamp, via The Times-Picayune. "We went through a process three years ago and I'm sure (the Patriots) are going through one right now. But other than that our focus right now for me and our team is on what we are doing right now. We've got enough problems ourselves to solve. That's what I'd say."
 
 
 

WayBackVazquez

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MB said:
To the uninitiated seven sounds like a lot. If there are seven lawyers how many investigators/support staff would there be, and would some of the support staff be qualified and/or authorized to screen the documents to highlight the relevant stuff?
It's on the high side, I but I would expect no fewer than five, really. Based on my experience, I would guess it went down something like this:

There are three partners: Wells and Reisner likely conducted most or all of the interviews, communicated with the client, and obviously had ultimate responsibility for the report. Karp, as chair of the firm, likely did very little.

There are two senior associates, they would have probably had responsibility for delivering the drafts of the report, working with the expert(s), and overseeing the junior associates.

There are two junior associates. They would have reviewed every document and elevated what they found. They also would likely have assisted the experts, done any research that was needed, and may have been responsible for writing the initial draft of one or more sections of the report, and "commenting" on drafts of the expert report.

Probably a few paralegals, but they are unlikely to have reviewed any documents.
 

In Vino Vinatieri

New Member
Nov 20, 2009
144
j44thor said:
The single most damaging text I see is the one about JJ giving JM a "big needle" and JM responding " the only thing deflating on Sun is Brady's passer rating".  That one is a tough one to swallow if as the Pats email chain confirms McNally is only responsible for "schleping" the balls to and from the field.  I understand this had nothing to do with the AFC champ game but that is close to a smoking gun.
 
This is something I found troubling too. I could buy in to a scheme where they pressured the refs to be more careful with the balls than they had been, but things like "deflate and give somebody that jacket" and talking about needles is pretty incriminating. The explanation for being the deflator, even if it's the honest to God truth, is laughable. Why was this guy talking about needles so much when they obviously had no lack of material for dick jokes?
 
What is a needle, anyway? What were they talking about and why? How will we ever get to the bottom of this mystery?
 
A sports ball inflation needle is a device that can be used to inflate a football (if attached to an air pump) or release air from a football (if inserted alone into a ball).
 
Don't worry, Encyclopedia Brown is on the case. Five million dollars per report - no case is too small!
 
Why would they talk about needles though? What was McNally's job, anyway?
 
McNally considers himself a “liaison” for the officials, and is there to provide or help with “whatever they need.” In this role, he is responsible for bringing items like towels, toiletries, time sheets and game programs to the locker room prior to the game.
 
So what the hell was the dorito dink bandit doing with needles, and why would Jastrzemski give him any?
 
 
He also is responsible for bringing an air pump and pressure gauge from the Patriots equipment room to the Officials Locker Room in case they are needed by the officials during their pre-game examination of game balls. McNally explained that he obtains the air pump and pressure gauge from the equipment room after Jastremski has finished inflating and adjusting the pressure in the Patriots game balls.
 
Oh. It was his job to bring an air pump and pressure gauge from Jastrzemski to the Officials' Locker Room. An air pump, as you now know, can be connected to a sports ball inflation needle in order to inflate a sports ball.
 
Just in case this wasn't clear, it's presented to us again, in the footnote explanation of where Anderson's gauges came from:
 
 
29. Anderson believes that he acquired one of his gauges last season, and the other approximately three or four seasons ago. Anderson also travels with extra sports ball inflation needles that attach to the end of gauges. In addition to being used as part of a gauge, an inflation needle can be used to inflate a football (if attached to a pump) or release air from a football (if inserted alone into a ball).
 
This whole thing is a fucking joke.
 

SeoulSoxFan

I Want to Hit the World with Rocket Punch
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Jun 27, 2006
22,104
A Scud Away from Hell
Now Dan Le Batard has one of the few articles that really goes to the heart of the issue: Goodell:
 
http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/12900850/roger-goodell-nfl-credibility-integrity-issues-wake-deflategate
 

That the most punitive commissioner in the history of games stained it himself, ironically enough, by handling the Rice case too leniently, ironically enough, is a testament to the dangers of appointing yourself moral authority over something inherently impure.
 
[snip]
 

So now you have a commissioner who lacks credibility hearing the appeal of a champion organization that lacks credibility. The league's independent investigator wrote 243 pages worth of incrimination to protect the integrity of its game, and the Patriots filed a lawyerly 19,600-word rebuttal to protect their integrity, and none of us still really understand empirically how much of an advantage was actually gained by breaking a random rule none of us knew was a rule. And the independent investigator then had to do a conference call to protect his independence and his 243 pages because nobody trusts anybody in this transaction. It's like watching the ending of "The Departed."
 
[snip]
 

You know when Goodell went from very popular to very unpopular? There was a tipping point. He entered to much applause as the iron-fisted emperor because America tends to love the punisher platform, but it all changed when he investigated the Saints the way he has the Patriots. Former and current players shrugged off the New Orleans bounty scandal, because that kind of thing was so common in their barbaric game, but Goodell The Outsider and Overseer had to protect an image and integrity and, with concussions in the news, player health. So he did his move. He over-punished. And all his decisions were overturned on appeal by anyone who fought them. Right then, the employees felt emboldened to trash their own commissioner publicly, and have done so since. 
 
 

lexrageorge

Member
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Jul 31, 2007
18,215
When evaluating comments, I think you can throw out most of the comments from active players and coaches.  Eli is not stupid, and there is little that he can say while playing for a NY based team without turning things into a circus.  So, his saying "Brady is my friend, but rules are rules..." is about as non-controversial as you can get.  Who knows how he actually feels, but players have little interest in speaking out the media regarding the punishment of other players.  After all, that's what the NFLPA is for. 
 
Same goes for active coaches; I can certainly respect Sean Payton's response.  No sense distracting his team from the more immediate issues that Payton is paid to focus on.  
 
The responses of Blank and Jones are most interesting, as they do give support to the argument that Kraft is operating mostly on an island.  However, all those comments were made prior to the rebuttal going public.  While CHB/Borges/Volin all dismiss the rebuttal as a joke, it's possible that Kraft's fellow owners may have a different reaction.  Probably not enough to move the needle, but at least the words are out there.  Again, once Goodell ordered Wells to change roles from independent investigator to going on the public attack on Brady and Kraft during that press conference, Kraft had absolutely nothing to lose at that point. 
 

Slow Rheal

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Pardon my ignorance, but at what point might we hear about the NFL's leaks leading up to the Super Bowl, if any? Assuming this would come out when a lawsuit was filed if the appeal fails to meet the NFLPA's expectations?
 

snowmanny

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Dec 8, 2005
15,766
I think the ship has sailed PR-wise nationally, but I wonder what the reaction would have been if Brady had said "I like the footballs at 12.5. We submit them at that level or a little lower and tell the refs not to inflate over 12.5. They might have been submitted lower than 12.5 and if so I have no idea what the refs did with them but that's not our responsibility and that's not cheating. And I have no idea how much lower the air
pressure dropped with cold, rain and play. But I don't believe anyone messed with the balls after we submitted them for approval and I would never ever condone anything like that."
 

uncannymanny

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Jan 12, 2007
9,105
snowmanny said:
I think the ship has sailed PR-wise nationally, but I wonder what the reaction would have been if Brady had said "I like the footballs at 12.5. We submit them at that level or a little lower and tell the refs not to inflate over 12.5. They might have been submitted lower than 12.5 and if so I have no idea what the refs did with them but that's not our responsibility and that's not cheating. And I have no idea how much lower the air
pressure dropped with cold, rain and play. But I don't believe anyone messed with the balls after we submitted them for approval and I would never ever condone anything like that."
"He has no idea!!"

There was no winning for Brady in anything he said on this topic, ever.
 

dcmissle

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One of the most horrendous aspects -- this will be top tier issue, at least through week 1 and possibly through week 5, after which the games again will be the primary focus. That's a long time to be in self enforced radio silence.

Then, of course, the loss of the no 1 pick will drain much of the joy out of next offseason up to the draft.

When do we clear this as a practical matter fully and finally? About 50 weeks from now, a full effing year.
 

ifmanis5

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Sep 29, 2007
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Slow Rheal said:
Pardon my ignorance, but at what point might we hear about the NFL's leaks leading up to the Super Bowl, if any? Assuming this would come out when a lawsuit was filed if the appeal fails to meet the NFLPA's expectations?
Probably never, unless Mort gives up his source and goes into detail about who, when and why. But that will never happen. We will also likely never know about the rumored late momentum where the Wells report was going to feature a large portion dedicated to the NFL's investigation and the Colts' alleged shady doings. As we now know, all of that was either false flags from SoV and the like or they were totally quashed out by Roger.
 
Even if the Pats win all of their appeals and Brady serves no suspension time, the public opinion will always default to Cheatriots. Nothing is going to change that. Not science, not law and certainly not common sense.
 

bankshot1

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Feb 12, 2003
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dcmissle said:
One of the most horrendous aspects -- this will be top tier issue, at least through week 1 and possibly through week 5, after which the games again will be the primary focus. That's a long time to be in self enforced radio silence.

Then, of course, the loss of the no 1 pick will drain much of the joy out of next offseason up to the draft.

When do we clear this as a practical matter fully and finally? About 50 weeks from now, a full effing year.
50 weeks?
 
IMO that's really wishful thinking
 
We now have Spygate raised to the power of Deflategate.
 
Spygate and now this are becoming the Pats legacy and that legacy will be thrown in our faces for a very long time.
 
I believe that absent either a total legal vindication,(slim) or a favorable negotiated settlement with Goodell (slimmer) is why the Pats probably need a very public scorched earth policy to shame the NFL's agenda and Goodell's handling of this matter.
 

doc

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Jul 14, 2005
4,495
Big fucking deal, if this is the price of success fuck them all. The Pats, BB and TB need to go on a tear and curb stomp the entire league. On to #5.
 

denilson3

New Member
Jul 14, 2005
77
If I were Kraft, I would ask that the other owners have their in-house counsel review the Wells report and the published Patriots documents ahead of this week's owners meetings. A quick brief on how outrageous this whole thing is from an informed third party could really help the discourse about the renegade league office.
 

dcmissle

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bankshot1 said:
50 weeks?
 
IMO that's really wishful thinking
 
We now have Spygate raised to the power of Deflategate.
 
Spygate and now this are becoming the Pats legacy and that legacy will be thrown in our faces for a very long time.
 
I believe that absent either a total legal vindication,(slim) or a favorable negotiated settlement with Goodell (slimmer) is why the Pats probably need a very public scorched earth policy to shame the NFL's agenda and Goodell's handling of this matter.
I was referring to getting to some place that resembles normal, which I don't think we will see for a year, except for a portion of the year, when games will dominate. Spygate and this will always be part of the background music.

The big joke on everyone -- unless I have missed something, the League has yet to issue anything that would prevent a repeat of this. It could be as simple as requiring officials to maintain exclusive custody of all footballs once they have received and gauged them.
 

PBDWake

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May 1, 2008
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kartvelo said:
Meh. Assumes guilt, says Pats have no credibility, while criticizing Roger.
 
We shouldn't be dismissive of people who think we're guilty. Honestly, my biggest issues are with processes, not conclusions. As facts have been presented to many people for months, it's difficult to imagine many people without a vested interest coming to a belief otherwise. You've had months of one sided presentation hammering the Patriots, so much so that there's going to be a bias leading in that there's guilt. But if a person follows some sort of logical process after looking over the evidence and believes we're guilty, that's fine to me, so long as they acknowledge the holes in the Wells Report. These are the people who's mind we can likely change. It's the people who throw out ESPN headlines and make jokes about the deflator weight loss that deserve to be dismissed out of hand.
 

soxhop411

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Dec 4, 2009
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Oakland Raiders head coach Jack Del Rio said Saturday that the NFL's punishment of the New England Patriots over Deflategate is an "overreaction," according to the Associated Press.
Del Rio also compared the discipline to the sanctions his alma mater, USC, received after the NCAA investigated Reggie Bush.
"I think there are some similarities in terms of an overreaction, from my standpoint," Del Rio said. "I think it was a little bit overdone, but that's somebody else's problem right now."
The Patriots were fined $1 million and lost their 2016 first-round draft pick as well as a 2017 fourth-round pick. Additionally, quarterback Tom Brady was suspended four games, a ruling he is appealing.
Del Rio suggested that instead of what it did, the NFL should have warned quarterbacks that tampering with the football would not be tolerated in the future.
http://www.si.com/nfl/2015/05/17/raiders-jack-del-rio-patriots-deflategate-punishment