#DFG: Canceling the Noise
- Thread starter nattysez
- Start date
My experience in NYC -- where I am around a lot of fans of the local entrants and other teams -- is that (a) there are very few true believers in the Pats' guilt, but many people who haven't given it a lot of thought and simply assume guilt on a "where there's smoke there's fire" basis and (b) yes, every single one of them would trade places and take the scandals along with the SB wins. Literally no one I've discussed the second aspect with doesn't admit to that immediately or exhibits even the smallest sense of embarrassment or sheepishness. "Of course I would take that deal! I'm not crazy." And fans of teams who haven't won, such as the Jets, add that they would make the trade in a heartbeat for even one SB win.
TheoShmeo said:
Yep, this. And for me, that's the ultimate rejoinder. If someone starts giving me crap, I simply ask who they root for. "Jets" or "Giants" is most likely. The Giants are the one team where I could see fans not wanting to trade places, because they have two titles - both beating the Pats. But still, I just say, "Yep, what can I say? But you'd trade places with me in a heartbeat, wouldn't you?" And they always answer yes. Usually that kind of diffuses the situation. I don't even have to point them to "yourteamcheats.com" and take that route.
norm from cheers said:
Do people realize that the Deflator text was sent in fucking May?
Do they seriously think the 8 times that Mcnaully supposedly deflates footballs for Brady each year is such a big deal in his life that he would be talking about it in fucking May? And why would they just dismiss the texts about the Jets game and the ball being at 16 PSI? Those texts occurred during the actual season, after a home game!
The stupid out there is really unbelievable.
To further the insanity, one of the two admitted he didn't even see Brady's presser, just read about it and saw reports on ESPN to base his opinion.( . ) ( . ) and (_!_) said:
Again, im shocked that people are shocked at this.( . ) ( . ) and (_!_) said:
The Wells report was important to the NFL because it established the narrative. Regardless of the facts, people will follow the narrative:
- Something happened; deflator texts prove that.
- Brady instructed them how he liked the balls, therefore he probably knew they were deflating them.
- The fact that Brady didn't cooperate only further convinces us of his guilt.
- The Pats refused an additional interview request, so they were less than fully cooperative.
-- etc.
The farther out we get, the more I am convinced the NFL got their money's worth from Ted Wells.
I'm not so sure of that, Average Reds.
Yes, the Wells Report gave the NFL the necessary cover to level heavy penalties against the Pats and firm up public opinion against them.
But when Brady takes this issue to Court, his team will continue the assault that the NY Times/AEI and Washington Post carried out in the last several days. The narrative -- which will be widely reported -- will be that the NFL's centerpiece was deeply flawed and possibly based on lies. If Brady's sentence ends up being wiped out, I think the NFL will look pretty stupid, and Goodell might wish that the Wells Report was better constructed.
That doesn't negate that the NFL already got what it wanted from Paul Weiss. It just might not prove to be long term value.
Yes, the Wells Report gave the NFL the necessary cover to level heavy penalties against the Pats and firm up public opinion against them.
But when Brady takes this issue to Court, his team will continue the assault that the NY Times/AEI and Washington Post carried out in the last several days. The narrative -- which will be widely reported -- will be that the NFL's centerpiece was deeply flawed and possibly based on lies. If Brady's sentence ends up being wiped out, I think the NFL will look pretty stupid, and Goodell might wish that the Wells Report was better constructed.
That doesn't negate that the NFL already got what it wanted from Paul Weiss. It just might not prove to be long term value.
Just about every non-Pats fan I've talked to thinks that Brady & the ballboys did it. HOWEVER, most of them agree that the penalty was nuts, and that it should have been just a fine.Smiling Joe Hesketh said:
Can the narrative change if Kessler, as we hope and anticipate, wipes the floor with Goodell in court and gets the suspension tossed? I'm not sure that even that will matter. And it it's pretty goddamn aggravating. The league basically barfed all over itself, wiped the chunks on the Pats and hoped that the "cheaters" meme would keep the public from noticing who really tossed their cookies. And it worked. Fuck it. I just want Brady on the field for a rip snorting revenge tour.
TheoShmeo said:
I don't think you are correct. People are tired of this story. The reporting on the trial will be nothing compared to the reporting done when the Wells report was initially released...which was nothing compared to the reporting leading up to the Super Bowl. Just like with Tomase's retraction, the mainstream media will give it a nod out of obligation but the masses won't care or will willfully ignore the story. Without a strong "pull" from the public the story will die out quickly and the initial narrative will largely prevail.
As I said a page up, the only way this isn't true is if Goddell gives the narrative legs by publicly admitting the flaws in Wells or by rescinding penalties against Brady and the organization. This will not happen. He will push it to court where he will largely be able to keep the initial narrative.
Remember John Oliver's words of wisdom -- if you want to get away with something the secret is to wrap it up in something really boring. Even owners aren't reading the Wells report.
Average Reds said:
How about Flabbergasted? Are you shocked people are flabbergasted? Because I think that's closer to what people mean.
I do know better then to expect the average American to be smarter then a wet paper bag. I was just venting. Sometimes the stupid just gets to be too much.Average Reds said:
It now appears any ball deflation plot was singularly ineffective--the two home games we know about, the balls were either at nearly 16 psi or at 12.5 with a 1 psi deviation due to weather.
The Colts claimed their suspicions were raised in Indianapolis Week 11, which makes no sense since McNally wasn't there and no opportunity has been suggested.
So why was Tom so mad at McNally and McNally mad at Tom? The innocent explanation is that Tom tasked McNally with monitoring the ref, and felt he failed in the Jets game. Simple.
As far as Tom's phone, the Swan Boat rebuttal made the point that when Roger stupidly talked about all NFL employees giving up their phones in the Rice investigation,they
were company phones, with ZERO personal phones obtained.
The Colts claimed their suspicions were raised in Indianapolis Week 11, which makes no sense since McNally wasn't there and no opportunity has been suggested.
So why was Tom so mad at McNally and McNally mad at Tom? The innocent explanation is that Tom tasked McNally with monitoring the ref, and felt he failed in the Jets game. Simple.
As far as Tom's phone, the Swan Boat rebuttal made the point that when Roger stupidly talked about all NFL employees giving up their phones in the Rice investigation,they
were company phones, with ZERO personal phones obtained.
TheoShmeo said:
This could go to court, where Kensil testifies that he ordered the sting, orchestrated false readings, kidnapped Well's children to force a biased report, and used pictures of Goodell sodomizing a goat to coerce a severe penalty and the majority of people would still say "yeah well, but we know they still cheated". The judge could force Goodell to open every press conference for the rest of his life with an opening statement acknowledging that the Patriots and Brady did nothing wrong and nobody's opinion will change.
At this point, it's worthless to hope public opinion comes around. The best hope we can hope for is that Brady plays all 16 games regardless of if he is proven innocent.
TheoShmeo said:
If a court of law determines that there was zero basis for suspending Brady, how on earth could Goodell manage to keep the team penalties in place?
EDIT: I mean, I know how he *can* - just not remove them. I get that. But how could he truly look America in the eyes and keep the penalties if in a neutral, objective court of law, the entire case gets thrown out in a total vindication of Brady and the Patriots? What does he say?
"We think the court is wrong?" "We're going to keep the penalties in place just….because?"
ivanvamp said:
For the millionth time:
RG penalized the team because he knew there could be no recourse. RG knew Brady would appeal, knows that he will win, and knows that there will ultimately be no suspension. He will make Brady go to court to prove it (because thats what he does) and he knows the only way this will stick to the Patriots (therefore proving his ruling "right") is my punishing the team.
The public will say "The Patriots cheated". Patriots fans will say "No, they didn't". The public will say "Then why were they fined draft picks?" And RG will smear his ball sack all over the integrity of the NFL. We've been on this ride before, folks.
From Reiss' chat (still live):
On why the owners haven't done anything:
On how far Brady might take it and Reiss' personal opinion
Some thoughts for Roger:
People have been talking about how it's becoming evident that Reiss is unhappy with his employer. Well, he published this question without comment and just left it there for people to see.
http://espn.go.com/sportsnation/boston/chat/_/id/51853
In terms of actual interesting football news (I know, not the thread), he said that Easley still isn't 100%. Damn.
On why the owners haven't done anything:
On how far Brady might take it and Reiss' personal opinion
Some thoughts for Roger:
People have been talking about how it's becoming evident that Reiss is unhappy with his employer. Well, he published this question without comment and just left it there for people to see.
http://espn.go.com/sportsnation/boston/chat/_/id/51853
In terms of actual interesting football news (I know, not the thread), he said that Easley still isn't 100%. Damn.
Lelands Auctions is offering a "Deflategate Ball" from the AFC Championship game.. the one Blount ran in. The bidding start at $25,000.00 and will be held on July 18.
http://www.lelands.com/Auction/AuctionDetail/75800/Summer-2015/Sports/Football/Lot1024~Deflategate-Ball
I wonder if a Patriot hater will buy it in hopes of landing more proof :blink:
http://www.lelands.com/Auction/AuctionDetail/75800/Summer-2015/Sports/Football/Lot1024~Deflategate-Ball
I wonder if a Patriot hater will buy it in hopes of landing more proof :blink:
norm from cheers said:
The bidding will start at $25,000.00, but eventually, it'll go for $1 million and a couple of draft picks.
norm from cheers said:
Why? By Lelands' own admission, this ball was used for the TD in the 3rd qtr, when supposedly all the balls had been reinflated to proper pressure.
Anyone who bids on this thing looking for some sort of proof is a goddamn moron.
This in my mind is one of the KEY points ... if McNally was releasing air from the balls after the referees measured them, WHY wouldn't he have have done so before the Jets' game? He knew the ref pumped MORE air into the balls than what he presented, yet he didn't take air out THEN?( . ) ( . ) and (_!_) said:
This would warrant unlocking the "good guy thread.
Terrell Suggs: (paraphrasing)
TB's reputation will not be diminished by this DG nonsense. TB is a winner who has won with whoever they put around him. The media just need something to write about.
Tis the offseason of hurt butts and exploding heads. This is effing awesome.
Terrell Suggs: (paraphrasing)
TB's reputation will not be diminished by this DG nonsense. TB is a winner who has won with whoever they put around him. The media just need something to write about.
Tis the offseason of hurt butts and exploding heads. This is effing awesome.
I apologize for repeating a point I have made before (as if this is the first time, especially in this thread!), but how is the following fact, noted in Gambler7's excerpt, not the total end of this discussion?
"At halftime, 11 Patriots’ balls and four Colts’ balls were measured, and while all of the Patriots’ balls measured below 12.5 psi, three of the four Colts’ balls also did, according to one of the gauges."
Under one of the gauges, only one of the measured balls was above the prescribed amount.
How can Brady or the Pats be punished in that light?
To me, that is a total showstopper and reveals how screwed up this whole thing is.
Is there a single more compelling fact or argument?
To the other lawyers out there, if you were arguing this case in court, would that fact not be one of the very first things you would emphasize, if not the first?
"At halftime, 11 Patriots’ balls and four Colts’ balls were measured, and while all of the Patriots’ balls measured below 12.5 psi, three of the four Colts’ balls also did, according to one of the gauges."
Under one of the gauges, only one of the measured balls was above the prescribed amount.
How can Brady or the Pats be punished in that light?
To me, that is a total showstopper and reveals how screwed up this whole thing is.
Is there a single more compelling fact or argument?
To the other lawyers out there, if you were arguing this case in court, would that fact not be one of the very first things you would emphasize, if not the first?
What? The Patriots weren't punished for being under 12.5 psi, they were punished for being below where the ideal gas law said they'd be. The Colt footballs were in the acceptable range (which was under 12.5).
Now you can argue that the Patriot footballs on average were where they were supposed to be if Anderson used the gauge he specifically remembered using but that is a different argument.
Now you can argue that the Patriot footballs on average were where they were supposed to be if Anderson used the gauge he specifically remembered using but that is a different argument.
People need to get over the science, it proves it's BS and everyone knows it's BS. This is all about the Texts a bathroom break and Tom Brady not kissing Rog's rings when confronted and not turning all his private information over to him instantly. It was a witch hunt led by incompetent people and the result is an absolute abortion of a PR disaster for the NFL. It's the best example of Ready, Fire and Aim I've ever seen and a startling reminder of the level of corporate incompetence in the NFL and the NFL's ability as an entity to succeed beyond the owners wildest expectations IN SPITE of the complete lack of leadership. I've never seen an entity like this that can grow, expand and still have such a horrific track record that conducts legal business. It's more Cartel than Corp.
The science doesn't matter to those who want the Pats to pay, it will never matter and the sentiment is that they finally got theirs as repeat offenders and unfortunately that seems to echo among the owners. No matter how absurd this gets the message won't change for a number of fans, and those who realize this is complete BS wont require any change because a number of them still for competitive reasons want the Pats to be knocked down a few pegs. It's like one of those crazy flu dreams you have, that you wake up and can't determine if it was reality or a dream due to the fevers - but suspect it's complete BS as it's too fubar to comprehend. The weird thing is we haven't woken up from this stupidity after almost 6 months...
The science doesn't matter to those who want the Pats to pay, it will never matter and the sentiment is that they finally got theirs as repeat offenders and unfortunately that seems to echo among the owners. No matter how absurd this gets the message won't change for a number of fans, and those who realize this is complete BS wont require any change because a number of them still for competitive reasons want the Pats to be knocked down a few pegs. It's like one of those crazy flu dreams you have, that you wake up and can't determine if it was reality or a dream due to the fevers - but suspect it's complete BS as it's too fubar to comprehend. The weird thing is we haven't woken up from this stupidity after almost 6 months...
TheoShmeo said:
If you are looking for one simple point that proves the whole thing is a sham: when the Colts tested the Pats ball on the sideline, the average of the 3 measurements was 11.5, which was exactly what the ideal gas law said it should have been. Case closed.
tims4wins said:
But 11.5 is less than 12.5 !!!!!
Edit: Sorry, I was just channeling Kensil there.
Gambler7 said:
LOL, that same guy I was talking about in the recent Jenkins article as appearing in every single article about this was the very first comment on this article. That guy is faster than Patriots fans at finding anything Deflategate related and commenting bad.
As for the article itself, it's a bit confusing. I think I understand the point she's making, but she would have been better off just saying it rather than implying it.This line is most confusing to me:
Isn't the point that science should override these issues? The report would have been better off ignoring science altogether? Odd.
Agreed it's a poorly written article. The point she seems to be making is that the science is inconclusive so it shouldn't have been in the report. She's not making any judgments about guilt or innocence of the Patriots and is saying that Wells should have made his case based solely on the circumstantial, non-scientific evidence.Ed Hillel said:
They're not being punished for having balls below the 'required' pressure.
They're being punished for tampering with the balls after they were approved by the refs. That the tampering was deflation is neither here nor there.
The faulty science calls into question whether there was any tampering. That's the issue.
If the refs approved the balls at 16 psi, or 10 psi, and then the ball boy deflated/inflated to get exactly to the middle of the range noted in the rules, that's still punishable.
They're being punished for tampering with the balls after they were approved by the refs. That the tampering was deflation is neither here nor there.
The faulty science calls into question whether there was any tampering. That's the issue.
If the refs approved the balls at 16 psi, or 10 psi, and then the ball boy deflated/inflated to get exactly to the middle of the range noted in the rules, that's still punishable.
amarshal2 said:
See, I think her point is that it should be over soon because Goodell should listen to the science and end this thing. I am not confident in my interpretation of her article, however, because it's so ambiguous. I'm confused because it appears that, after making this point, she says Wells would have been better off ignoring the science. I dunno, whatever.
amarshal2 said:
Look at this portion:
Looks to me like she's saying, "Look, all these scientists found the Pats balls could be in range, yet despite that Wells came up with this asinine conclusion." But then she follows that with it having been fine if Wells had just said the bathroom break/texts were more compelling than science, which undermines the entire point of her article. I don't get it. :huh:
The Grand inquisition is next week.
June 23 2015
345 Park Ave NYC
All the good seats are gone.
I'm not going to repeat the arguments for/against or the Wells versus AEI reports. Most of us know the issues, and given the time spent discussing this, probably better than most.
So arguments aside how does this shake out?
What does Roger do and how will Brady respond?
Time for SoSH to vote.
lets quantify the community
I'm going with reduced to 2 games, and Brady takes it to court.
June 23 2015
345 Park Ave NYC
All the good seats are gone.
I'm not going to repeat the arguments for/against or the Wells versus AEI reports. Most of us know the issues, and given the time spent discussing this, probably better than most.
So arguments aside how does this shake out?
What does Roger do and how will Brady respond?
Time for SoSH to vote.
lets quantify the community
I'm going with reduced to 2 games, and Brady takes it to court.
Well according to Troy Vincent's letter, the Patriots were punished for using footballs that were "...inflated at a level that did not satisfy the standard set forth in the NFL's Official Playing Rules and that the condition of the footballs was the result of deliberate actions by employees of the Patriots." So at least according to the NFL, they structured the sentence to bring up the inflation issue first and then the deliberate tampering second. Vincent later writes that "...the footballs were intentionally deflated in an effort to provide a competitive advantage to Tom Brady after having been certified by the game officials as being in compliance with the playing rules." The (alleged) deflation levels itself is clearly pretty important in terms of the discipline.simplyeric said:
Now, I do believe that the NFL would have handed down the same punishment even if the Patriot footballs measured within the Ideal Gas Law range on both gauges. The NFL still would have contended non-cooperation and not following the established football handling guidelines (taking them to the bathroom). They still likely would have argued that tampering could have occurred, even if the psi levels were within an acceptable range.
In the grand scheme of things, does the science matter in this case? I'd say no based on the league's actions. However, the science (and the readings of a gauge Walt Anderson specifically remembered not using) gave the league an easier case to make.
Of course it matters since under your scenario a mere accusation is enough to convict. This is analogous to the NFL accusing the Patriots of applying a substance to the footballs. If there is no substance on the footballs, and science backs that up, then it does not matter if someone sent texts about vaguely referring to substances or took a bathroom break. There are no rules about texting or bathroom breaks in the NFL rulebook.EL Jeffe said: