#DFG: Canceling the Noise

Is there any level of suspension that you would advise Tom to accept?


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ColonelMustard

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Fred in Lynn said:
Is it lack of integrity or lack of organization? I don't know what makes anybody think that a business like the NFL would have a system of discipline that was on par (in design) with the U.S. justice system, for example. They're good at making money through football, but it makes as much sense for someone of Roger Goodell's background and position to be overseeing justice as it does to have Jack Welch rewire my home because he ran GE. The start would be to hire someone who has a background in the law for such a role.

Yes, I realize the NFL has lawyers, but they're clearly not utilizing them as needed.
 
Lack of integrity from the hubris of thinking these men are beasts they own.  
 

Reverend

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You're on fire today, boss.
 
I'm always surprised he doesn't have more twitter followers.
 
https://twitter.com/chicagofakenews/status/639100468254392320
 

kartvelo

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drleather2001 said:
 
Where did the Patriots "admit cheating"?
When Kraft agreed with the findings of the Wells report and accepted his appropriate punishment, silly!
 

Fred in Lynn

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Fred in Lynn

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ColonelMustard said:
 
Lack of integrity from the hubris of thinking these men are beasts they own.  
Okay, Mark Schlereth.

Everyone has an ego. I think they're incompetent, for reasons I've blabbered on about recent posts. I don't believe it's malice (which doesn't really matter if you're in the receiving end of their decisions).
 

Al Zarilla

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E5 Yaz said:
 
Sally Jenkins ‏@sallyjenx  2h2 hours ago
I’m waiting for Lester Munson’s analysis of Berman’s written opinion as “masterful” and “brilliant."
 
I'm waiting for Jane Rosenberg to come out with a more flattering sketch of Tom. 
 
"“I want to apologize to Tom Brady for not making him as handsome as he really is,” Jane Rosenberg said. “It’s hard to capture that in a short amount of time.”
 

Jed Zeppelin

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I'm sure this was already the case, but after this result I can't imagine the lengths the NFL will go to keep the results of this season's ball-testing under wraps. 
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

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Jed Zeppelin said:
 
"Almost definitely did"? Get this man a job on Park Ave.
 
To be fair, investigatory cosplay is a gold-medal turn of phrase.
 
I have trouble even understanding what Ley is trying to say.
 
I guess he's saying Brady almost definitely was more probably than not generally aware that footballs were being deflated.  
 
I love how people are spinning this as a technicality.  They somehow think it's relevant that Brady didn't win on the "facts" before a judge who had no legal authority to pass on the facts.
 
Here's a question:  If Berman -- the first neutral to look at this thing -- had been allowed to rule on the factual merits of the league's decision, is there anyone on the planet who doesn't already know what he would have said?
 

Fred in Lynn

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Jed Zeppelin said:
I'm sure this was already the case, but after this result I can't imagine the lengths the NFL will go to keep the results of this season's ball-testing under wraps. 
Aren't they still requiring home teams to provide game balls? Why they wouldn't completely take that out of the hands of teams and bulk up the specifications and QC testing is beyond me.
 

GregHarris

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The judge implied as much in the decision, mentioning the "alleged infraction" a lot.
 

ifmanis5

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Jed Zeppelin said:
I'm sure this was already the case, but after this result I can't imagine the lengths the NFL will go to keep the results of this season's ball-testing under wraps. 
Phoniest numbers ever will be provided, if they are provided at all. Basically gangsters running a casino with 2 sets of accounting books. League is a joke.
 

lambeau

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The Second Circuit judges from Connecticut are terrific people--Chris Droney, Jose Cabranes, and Susan Carney--and if on the panel I can't see why they'd
disagree with Berman. So unless the New York judges are weird, I don't see reason to worry--my amateur take, knowing only 3/13.
 

geoduck no quahog

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Let's all be very clear about this: There was absolutely no vindication of Brady or the Patriots in that finding (nor would there ever have been).
 
It was ruled that Brady did not receive adequate notice and that he was not afforded the ability to obtain certain documents or cross examine certain witnesses. That's all.
 
Determining whether or not Jastremski and McNally (with Brady's knowledge) deflated footballs after inspection will most certainly never be (legally) resolved.
 

OnWisc

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ifmanis5 said:
Phoniest numbers ever will be provided, if they are provided at all. Basically gangsters running a casino with 2 sets of accounting books. League is a joke.
They've already released the numbers from next week's Pats-Steelers game and, surprise surprise, the Pats balls were underinflated again.
 

mwonow

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geoduck no quahog said:
Let's all be very clear about this: There was absolutely no vindication of Brady or the Patriots in that finding (nor would there ever have been).
 
It was ruled that Brady did not receive adequate notice and that he was not afforded the ability to obtain certain documents or cross examine certain witnesses. That's all.
 
Determining whether or not Jastremski and McNally (with Brady's knowledge) deflated footballs after inspection will most certainly never be (legally) resolved.
 
Lester, is that you?
 

rodderick

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DennyDoyle'sBoil said:
 
I have trouble even understanding what Ley is trying to say.
 
I guess he's saying Brady almost definitely was more probably than not generally aware that footballs were being deflated.  
 
I love how people are spinning this as a technicality.  They somehow think it's relevant that Brady didn't win on the "facts" before a judge who had no legal authority to pass on the facts.
 
Here's a question:  If Berman -- the first neutral to look at this thing -- had been allowed to rule on the factual merits of the league's decision, is there anyone on the planet who doesn't already know what he would have said?
You can argue the most incredulous Berman sounded during this case was precisely when he inquired Nash about the facts.
 

joe dokes

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Sort of ironic...Much as the media machine ran with a Balls narrative against the Patriots and Brady that was, still is, and probably always will affect rational thought, that same machine is declaring this as a near-death knell for many NFL-related things, when it probably isn't. But those pesky narratives are hard to shake, especially when the Commissioner's new first name is "Embattled."  Curious to see how the PR-now, PR-tomorrow, PR-forever commissioner handles it.
 
 
 
The Second Circuit judges from Connecticut are terrific people--Chris Droney, Jose Cabranes, and Susan Carney--and if on the panel I can't see why they'd
disagree with Berman. So unless the New York judges are weird, I don't see reason to worry--my amateur take, knowing only 3/13.
 
 
Vermont wants a word with you.
 

( . ) ( . ) and (_!_)

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BigSoxFan said:
Has it been confirmed whether or not Goodell will be at Gillette next week?
I can't imagine when he has a viable option in San Fran. The whole 50th super bowl thing.

Imagine if he was coming and the seat next to him was on sale. I'd drop many thousands of dollars to sit in the seat. Many thousands.
 

geoduck no quahog

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Jed Zeppelin said:
I'm sure this was already the case, but after this result I can't imagine the lengths the NFL will go to keep the results of this season's ball-testing under wraps. 
 
Don't know about that, but it's curious that the NFL will pick "random" games to test the footballs at halftime and end of game.
 
If some of the "random" games include (for example) Lambeau Field in January, or Miami in September - and the numbers are accurate and publicized...that will be a hoot. 
 
If the games end up being New England or NY on a 72 degree September day...that will also be telling.
 
In any case, if the numbers are published - it's going to be interesting to see the deviation in readings generated solely from the inaccuracy of cheap shit Wilson gauges. 
 

Jed Zeppelin

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Seeing Berman hammer the "independent" bs just warms the heart after Roger openly mocked Rachel Nichols for daring to question him on it back in January.
 
Fortunately, the league will never again be able to use "independent" in this context with a straight face. Much like "integrity," the word no longer means anything and the mere mention of it will be met with ridicule.
 

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geoduck no quahog said:
 
Don't know about that, but it's curious that the NFL will pick "random" games to test the footballs at halftime and end of game.
 
If some of the "random" games include (for example) Lambeau Field in January, or Miami in September - and the numbers are accurate and publicized...that will be a hoot. 
 
If the games end up being New England or NY on a 72 degree September day...that will also be telling.
 
In any case, if the numbers are published - it's going to be interesting to see the deviation in readings generated solely from the inaccuracy of cheap shit Wilson gauges. 
It'll be every San Diego home game.
 

Harry Hooper

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mwonow said:
 
Lester, is that you?
. Going in to Berman's coyrt, the pro-Commish types took the line that the evidence is crap yet the judge can only consider process. Now that the process has been found severely wanting, the crap evidence is getting rehabilitated?
 

geoduck no quahog

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mwonow said:
 
Lester, is that you?
 
Just stating the facts, mam...only the facts.
 
Haterz gonna...
 
Look - any respectable Jets fans should be saying "Well, Ray Rice was guilty and he got off...Peterson was..."
 
But Jets fans are incredibly stupid (to put it kindly).
 

Yossarian

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Sure, Berman didn't and couldn't rule on the facts, but he's only human -- I think if he thought the evidence was slam-dunk against Brady, or anything close to it, he would have been a lot less inclined to give him total victory on the legal front.  We don't like to think judges think that way, but of course they do -- at least sometimes.
 

Hagios

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Jed Zeppelin said:
 
To be fair, investigatory cosplay is a gold-medal turn of phrase.
 
Agreed. I think it's interesting that the vultures are now making a passing nod at Brady and circling Goodell.
 

Harry Hooper

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ifmanis5 said:
Phoniest numbers ever will be provided, if they are provided at all. Basically gangsters running a casino with 2 sets of accounting books. League is a joke.
. Probably, though if Glampers can line up a sponsor (Uniroyal?) For the measurement ceremonies, who knows?
 

Punchado

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I think the answer to those that say that the judge ruled on the law rather than on the facts is that if the NFL had any real facts they wouldn't have had to be so stupid in regards to the law.
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

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rodderick said:
You can argue the most incredulous Berman sounded during this case was precisely when he inquired Nash about the facts.
 
Right.  I think if he had been convinced Brady had done something wrong, he could have easily found a way to come out the other way on this.  Or, flipping it, I think he was left with a firm conviction either that this was much to do about nothing or he was convinced the case against Brady was shoddy.
 
I think he also might have been moved by the only argument that I've ever used that has had any traction with my Patriots hating friends.  If Brady was truly guilty, why do you have to work so hard to stack the deck?  
 
You employed an investigator that you touted as independent, but who later turned out to be so non-independent that you had to resort to arguing, "there is no requirement of independence."  You used an "expert" that even the most ardent Patriots hater would recognize wrote an advocacy piece.  You manipulated the rules, and gave one side evidence that the other side couldn't see.  You were so seemingly scared of having a neutral actually resolve the facts that you stacked the arbitration by putting the Commissioner in as hearing officer, when you don't even take that measure for domestic violence, and then later touted his non-neutrality.  And then you coordinated the issuance of the decision with a quick filing in federal court so you could choose your forum.  
 
These are not the actions of someone who thinks they are on the side of right and justice with respect to the facts.  These are the acts of someone who wants to create a story to a sympathetic audience and try to get it rubber stamped in an effort to consolidate power, because they believe they've found the right case -- where people hate the target and want to believe a cheating narrative -- to try to shore up your dictatorial instincts.
 

OnWisc

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Punchado said:
I think the answer to those that say that the judge ruled on the law rather than on the facts is that if the NFL had any real facts they wouldn't have had to be so stupid in regards to the law.
Well put.
 

geoduck no quahog

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DennyDoyle'sBoil said:
 
...You employed an investigator that you touted as independent, but who later turned out to be so non-independent that you had to resort to arguing, "there is no requirement of independence."  You used an "expert" that even the most ardent Patriots hater would recognize wrote an advocacy piece.  You manipulated the rules, and gave one side evidence that the other side couldn't see.  You were so seemingly scared of having a neutral actually resolve the facts that you stacked the arbitration by putting the Commissioner in as hearing officer, when you don't even take that measure for domestic violence, and then later touted his non-neutrality.  And then you coordinated the issuance of the decision with a quick filing in federal court so you could choose your forum. ...
 
I'm going to have this cast in bronze and mounted on my front door.
 
Seriously, I am.
 

OnWisc

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The ESPN article of course quotes the part of the decision about notice not being given to Brady about the consequences of a violation, and simply references the part about access to documents, without use of the terms unfair or predjudiced.
 

PedroKsBambino

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geoduck no quahog said:
Let's all be very clear about this: There was absolutely no vindication of Brady or the Patriots in that finding (nor would there ever have been).
 
It was ruled that Brady did not receive adequate notice and that he was not afforded the ability to obtain certain documents or cross examine certain witnesses. That's all.
 
Determining whether or not Jastremski and McNally (with Brady's knowledge) deflated footballs after inspection will most certainly never be (legally) resolved.
 
I think that overstates things somewhat.  He definitely did not offer direct factual findings on the underlying deflation, so in large part I agree with you.   But...
 
1) It is very hard to deny that Berman's opinion expressed cynicism about the NFL's substantive findings
2) He pretty much said the process was invalid, and thus one has to conclude that the results of an invalid process offer no evidence Pats did anything (or that they didn't, obviously)
3) His shots at Wells report and suggestion of pseudo-conflict for PW definitely do undermine credibility of the Wells report, the only evidence NFL even cited that deflation occurred
 

Kenny F'ing Powers

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You know what I see on 100% of ESPN programming? A news/score scroll on the bottom of the screen.

Do you know what isn't on ESPN right now?
 

Shamus74

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"Alex from Andover" absolutely destroyed Felger & Mazz on the radio just now. Alex is obviously a lawyer. Mazz was sputtering and backtracking and admitting he most of the opinions he's offered on DFG have been dead-wrong. Felger is like, "but not all th balls were .1 PSI under.... some were more."
 

millionthcustomer

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Understated, yet permeating throughout the decision, are almost a dozen not-so-subtle references to the "independence" of either the Wells investigation, or the Paul, Weiss, et al. law firm itself.  The word "independence" and/or its variant "independent" appear in quotes all over the place.  A lot was made of Judge Berman's use of 'air quotes' around the word independent during the hearing, but maybe it was more significant than anyone gave it credit for.  Clearly, the judge felt that the investigation was biased from the outset: 
 
Pg 3: "On January 23, 2015, the NFL publicly announced that it had retained Theodore V. Wells Jr. and his law firm to conduct an 'independent' investigation.
 
Pg 5: "On May 6th, 2015, the findings of the Pash/Wells 'independent' Investigation were made public."
 
Pg 12 (footnote 12, quoting Goodell): "I have expressed my appreciation to Mr. Wells and his colleagues for their thorough and independent work." (emphasis Judge Berman)
 
Pg 15: "...regarding Paul Weiss's dual and seemingly inconsistent roles as 'independent' investigator and counsel to the NFL." (emphasis in original)
 
Pg 19: The Court may also vacate an arbitral award 'where there was evident partiality..."
 
Pg 25: "...Commissioner Goodell may be said to have 'dispense[d] his own brand of industrial justice.'"
 
Pg 35: "Denied the opportunity to examine Pash at arbitral hearing, Brady was prejudiced.  He was foreclosed from exploring, among other things, whether the Pash/Wells Investigation was truly 'independent," and how and why the NFL's General Counsel came to edit a supposedly independent investigation report." "As co-lead investigator and senior executive with the NFL, Pash was in the best position to testify about the NFL's degree of involvement in, and potential shaping of, a heralded 'independent' investigation."  (emphasis mine)  
 
Pg 36: "The Court notes that the Paul Weiss role in this case seems to have 'changed' from 'independent' investigators to NFL's retained counsel at the arbitral hearing."
 
Pg 37: "Compounding Brady's prejudice is the fact that, as noted, Paul Weiss acted as both alleged 'independent' counsel during the investigation and also (perhaps inconsistently) as retained counsel to the NFL during the arbitration."
 
 
More than anything, I'm just glad that a neutral party was able to see this sham of an investigation for what it was.