#DFG: Canceling the Noise
- Thread starter nattysez
- Start date
So for those of us who don't know shit about science....how would summner et. al. craft NDT's retraction/correction?
Will Leitch at Sports on Earth says this whole thing is designed to drive TV viewership:
http://www.sportsonearth.com/article/107589688/deflate-gate-nfl-bill-belichick-roger-goodell
http://www.sportsonearth.com/article/107589688/deflate-gate-nfl-bill-belichick-roger-goodell
That's why I said it wouldn't have an effect on the ball. Just bringing some science to the thread for the hell of it. If the plant engineer shows up, I'll have him do some homework on this national nightmare.
Gagliano said:
No probs, let us know what you get.
Currently watching Boomer and Carton. Wow, Carton has exactly the NY media personality I've learned to despise, yet somehow he has completely the reasonable take on this story. I can't imagine this is doing him any favors with his NYC fanbase.
OTOH, perhaps this is all calculated to drive clicks and listenership, in much the same way CHB trolls his native audience.
Ah, the WWE angle.
Patriots - Evil.
Seahawks - Good.
Will Good Triumph over Evil.
Find out Sunday night.
NFL, Sports Entertainment.
Patriots - Evil.
Seahawks - Good.
Will Good Triumph over Evil.
Find out Sunday night.
NFL, Sports Entertainment.
It's not at all difficult to intentionally (or unintentionally) create negative (or positive) pressure in a room, relative to another room or the outside air.C4CRVT said:
Any high cfm range hood vent can create negative pressure in a kitchen. Combustion air escaping from a furnace can create negative pressure in a mechanical room.
On the other hand, hvac equipment can create positive pressure quite easily. It's a pretty standard part of life safety equipment to create positive pressure in an exit stair, etc. Alternately to create negative pressure in a lab space so as not to let gases out into other spaces. Even just a really sunny space will create positive pressure. Blah blah blah.
Anyway, the ideal gas law refers to a constant count of atoms and molecules in a contained volume. Outside air (and indoor air) is most definitely not a constant count nor a contained volume.
Edit: I should note that I'm not really sure of the psi differences here, just that the pressure differentials can exist.
Could this be some kind of Machiavellian power play orchestrated by some character like Senator Palpatine? Using the Star Wars analogy, Goodell was Chancellor Valorum (though that is a quite generous analogy). Kraft was Queen Amidala. Valorum was paralyzed to assist Amidala and she motioned to replace Valorum (vote of no confidence). Senator Palpatine (whoever that was) was elected to be the new Commissioner and was much worse than Goodell...
Guys, this thread is unwieldy enough without dumping in stuff that has nothing to do with the topic.
A clean room is recommended to be 12-14 Pa above ambient (or approximately 0.002 PSI).Gagliano said:
Overpressure for a factory will be significantly less (IIRC Pharma uses ~5 Pa for standard manufacturing areas). Definitely not enough to affect gauge pressure in the footballs.
This is a pretty great article, in part because it shows you why the Pats are great, and in part because in trying to say that Belichick knew about balls being deflated, Ryan Clark explains why there's no way some random balldude would've been tasked with deflating footballs.
Holy crap, I was just about to jump on you for coming in on page 216 with info ("Colts suspected under-inflation on Nov. 16") that's been common knowledge since, let's say, page 2.garzooma said:
Then I read the last line.
garzooma said:
Yeah, but...what if he left the balls in the hallway when he went to pee? And what if the Pats had their own ball guy just waiting for the chance to do the deflation then? Is there any video to prove this didn't happen?
I am beyond sick of the blather. Can we petition the league to move the game to Thursday?
No idea how reliable that is.
http://boston.cbslocal.com/2015/01/27/richs-sources-patriots-footballs-passed-referee-inspection-just-under-allowable-psi-level/
Just a rehash.
Just a rehash.
garzooma said:
Ha! Most likely the Pats balls weren't even under-inflated, but it just shows you how psyched out the Colts and other teams are.
Mortensen said today the Colts put the issue of under-inflated balls on the pre-game alert sheet given to the officials right before the AFC championship game. Is it really too much to believe that the Colts, just for that game, pumped up their own footballs a bit more than they usually would?
kartvelo said:
Nowhere outside of scalped eBay prices. They've been sold out everywhere since November.
The problem, for the NFL, is that short term gain can be long term detriment. If you allow the whiff of pro wrestling lack of seriousness to become firmly associated with your sport, does that eventually cause indifference toward your product in part of the viewing public that was a large part of your customer base? I'm not saying that's definitely the case but if I were an NFL executive I wouldn't be casually certain that this farce is unalloyed benefit.DukeSox said:
Darren Rovell was on DC sports radio this morning. He said the NFL gets not a penny if the ratings are goosed. And because the ratings are always so high for the SB, the NFL is never in the position, or close to it, or being on the hook for give-backs to advertisers.
This makes no sense even in the short term, essentially desecrating the signature event in the sport after a crummy PR year.
Agreed. DeJesus made Will's point (and did it well) that all this is whole mess is basically an ad to watch the game. And sure, plenty of people like to slow down and look at the bodies of the car wreck in the highway but what you have left is essentially a freak show with not much credibility. Would other sports drag one of their key franchises and star players through the mud like this with leaks and innuendo? We know the answer to that, they don't.Rough Carrigan said:
Looking for the odds of NBC displaying the just-measured psi of most every ball that gets tossed into the game with some horrible gauge animation and Cris Collinsworth telling us all exactly how much harder a ball might be to catch. I'm at -110 right now.
Talk to your engineers to confirm, but I'm pretty sure that's technically right but completely negligible:Gagliano said:
To keep the interior building at the environmentally regulated level, you usually need to pressurize 1-2 Pascals over the outside world (see e.g. http://www.buildingscience.com/documents/digests/bsd-109-pressures-in-buildings). In very tall buildings you may need to go up to 100 Pascals or so to overcome the stack effects of cold weather at the top and bottom.
50 pascals of difference would be about the same as feeling a 20-mph wind blow past you when the doors are open.
For reference, 1 PSI is about 6900 Pascals; the atmosphere is about 14.7 PSI. Being 250 pascals over pressure because you have more air intakes than exhausts is a 0.2% pressure difference in the atmosphere. So even the pressure difference in a big skyscraper is completely negligible compared to the pressures we're talking about.
Rough Carrigan said:
This entire league's dominant mindshare position has been built on gambling interest and its new cousin fantasy football, interest which will wane as the sense that it's rigged grows stronger. The NFL can't get its hands on an elevator video that they just had to ask for, but deploys numerous personnel and $ to ensure adherence to injury report protocols and that players wear their uniforms properly with sponsors' logos displayed.
Sadly, I beg to differ. MLB didn't drag franchises but star players through the mud in an asinine public relations show of newfound seriousness about the satanic scourge of PED's.ifmanis5 said:
It's great having Gagliano in here. Like Marciano providing color commentary on somebody getting beaten to within an inch of his life.
Meanwhile, this commercial message:
“He’s the best coach in the game — the best coach ever in the game,” Wilfork said. “When it’s all over I can say I was coached by the greatest.”
Meanwhile, this commercial message:
“He’s the best coach in the game — the best coach ever in the game,” Wilfork said. “When it’s all over I can say I was coached by the greatest.”
Yep; alternatively, 1 PSI = 6895 Pa. Even the clean room is basically zero on the scales we're talking about. I think big skyscrapers go higher than that, but still nowhere near enough to have a measurable impact on the ball.One Leg at a Time said:
A couple of small points. First, at the NFL experience, they are selling lots of different Wilson balls, some of which purport to be official game balls and some of which are commemorative balls. The latter are clearly not marketed as game balls, but they are full size Wilson balls with like the team names or Arizona themed stuff on them and they cost a bunch -- like $80 to $100. Interestingly, the following appears above the valve: "Inflate to 7 to 9 psi".
Anyway, I'll be conducting some experiments tonight. I plan to take a ball and fill it to exactly 12.5 psi in a 70 degree environment. I then will put it in a 45 degree environment for 1 hour and 30 minutes, at which point I will measure the psi. I will then put it in the 70 degree environment and continue to take measurements every 2 minutes. If anyone wants to add to the experiment, please let me know.
I know that there already are a ton things on the web already doing similar stuff, but I want to do it myself and see what happens.
Anyway, I'll be conducting some experiments tonight. I plan to take a ball and fill it to exactly 12.5 psi in a 70 degree environment. I then will put it in a 45 degree environment for 1 hour and 30 minutes, at which point I will measure the psi. I will then put it in the 70 degree environment and continue to take measurements every 2 minutes. If anyone wants to add to the experiment, please let me know.
I know that there already are a ton things on the web already doing similar stuff, but I want to do it myself and see what happens.
DennyDoyle'sBoil said:
Try it dry first and then wet to see if there's a difference (go 70F to 45F both dry, measure, then bring back to 70F and measure, then wet down the ball and wrap in a damp towel down to 45F for 90 minutes and see if the dampness makes a difference).
Apologies if I missed this on the way through, but - what's the variance on the gauges themselves? I know glucometers have a pretty wide tolerance range, and their readings are more important at a granular level than a pressure gauge. If the same ball is tested with multiple gauges, do they all read the same?
SumnerH said:
How do I know when it's back to 70F? When the psi is back to 12.5 is that a good enough indicator that the temp is back to 70? I don't really have a means of measuring the temperature of the air inside the ball.
If you know an auto mechanic or are friendly with a local Autozone or something, you might be able to bring the football there and use a pressure transducer that connects to a Fluke meter, or something similar. They use stuff like that for vacuum checks and what not.
