#DFG: Canceling the Noise

Is there any level of suspension that you would advise Tom to accept?


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Harry Hooper

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WenZink said:
 I believe so.  The balls aren't supposed to be out of view of the officials at some point, No?  I believe Anderson said he'd never seen that done before.
 
Correct me if I am mistaken, but I've always assumed the Patriots were going to get some kind of penalty (not this much, for chrissakes) when I first heard that reported.
 
The credibility of this statement is certainly questionable. It doesn't mean he's lying, but it's just human nature to not recall it when it doesn't matter {the rest of NFL history}, as in "Why does the piece of bread always land on the floor buttered-side down?" It really doesn't, but you forget those times it lands buttered-side up.
 

PedroKsBambino

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MentalDisabldLst said:
 
Really?  All my friends at NYU Law characterized Paul Weiss as the #1 place for litigation, a group you would hire for "bet the firm" cases.  I mean, maybe Cravath or Wachtell are viewed as more prestigious for corporate work, but what firms are in this "higher tier" above Paul Weiss in litigation?
 
There is no question Paul Weiss is a spectacular firm with a great litigation department.  As dcmissile noted, it is more about individual lawyers than firms at the level we're talking about.  At the firm level, my personal opinion is that there are some other places I'd go first if it were my company on the line.  To name a few, Williams & Connelly, Covington & Burling (who is the NFL's longtime counsel and current home of Paul Tagliabue), Debevoise.  Some feel Quinn Emmanuel is there; some feel Kirkland is there.  I think both Cravath and Wachtell are at the top in litigation, even though they do less of it than they do transactional work.  Just one person's opinion, obviously...these are all great places.

As an aside, having been one in the past, I would say that my experience was what I thought I knew about firms as a law student was proven to be only a small corner of what is actually going on when one gets to them and learns what lawyers think about each other/other firms/etc.  Not a criticism of law students, it is just that they have so little information other than what's on the web...which is heavily influenced by what firms choose to invest in marketing. 
 

Yossarian

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PBDWake said:
 
To be fair, and that is the only time I will say this, it actually doesn't matter about the 12.5 threshold. It's deflating post inspection, even if it was to a legal amount, that is the problem here. I don't believe Brady asked them to deflate post inspection, and I don't think he knew even if they were. But there's so many flimsy assumptions here it's laughable. For instance, one of the reasons they hammer Brady is for saying he didn't know McNally, when, in a text, JJ mentions Brady talking about how stressed McNally must be. Therefore, Brady is lying, no? Except that as management myself, I frequently bullshit that line out to my employees. When employees are bitching out our division head, and pissed off and venting, much like McNally seemed to be doing, I'll often throw out a bullshit white lie about how at my last meeting with them they complimented the work they were doing personally. It shuts them up and gets them back to work more often than not, and my division manager likely couldn't pick them out of a lineup.
 
Great point.  I could read that text as just as easily saying something like "I know you have a guy who works on these footballs, and I know he must be stressed because I've bitched you out three separate times already for the balls being over-inflated, so there's a lot of pressure."  I don't see that scenario as even slightly implausible.
 

Marbleheader

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Hoya81 said:
The text from JJ to JM saying that JJ spoke to Tom and he knows how much pressure JM is under to get the balls done.
Which shows his bias. It is just as, if not more, likely he's referencing the meticulous manner in which Brady wanted the balls prepared every week. It doesn't mean he's referencing anything nefarious.
 

Hoya81

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Marbleheader said:
Which shows his bias. It is just as, if not more, likely he's referencing the meticulous manner in which Brady wanted the balls prepared every week. It doesn't mean he's referencing anything nefarious.
Would it be considered hearsay?
 

kartvelo

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Morgan's Magic Snowplow said:
 
All the more reason to consider that answer incredible.
 
I really wish somebody had asked them, "Can you tell me what evidence shows that Tom Brady wanted the balls specifically deflated below the 12.5 psi threshhold allowable by the league?"
Or, what evidence shows that JM's self-imposed title of "Deflator" refers to deflating the balls post-inspection vs. prior to inspection, which would square up perfectly with BB's statement that "we ask the refs to inflate them to 12.5?"
After all, if you want the balls to be on the low end, and the rule specifically tells the refs to leave any balls within the range untouched, you certainly don't submit them above 12.5. And if the refs routinely don't/didn't give a crap about the air pressure in the balls, JM's threats to give TB "fuckin watermelons" would mean that, rather than the usual deflation, he's threatening to inflate them just to mess with TB, knowing they'd probably get past the refs even overinflated.
 

Harry Hooper

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The Wells clips on WEEI are amazing. He sounds surprisingly emotional, and not clinically analytical. 
 
His comments on Yee complaining now are laughable. The Brady camp had no say in his getting appointed, so pre-emptively questioning his independence at the start would have helped them how?
 

BusRaker

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This is all going to make for a great made-for-the-nfl-station cable movie in a few months. Who plays Brady? Matt Damon?
 

DJnVa

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Ralphwiggum said:
This whole thing is so fucking bizarre.  I cannot believe the NFL allowed Wells to hold that press conference. 
 
Why? It's the NFL. They're not good at this.
 
 

GBrushTWood

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MarcSullivaFan said:
https://twitter.com/rapsheet/status/598192722873225218
 
Stunning arrogance displayed by this statement. Apparently, he's never stepped on 2 scales consecutively. A difference in measurement of objects can be attributed to a difference in the measurement system used, not necessarily the objects themselves.
 

dcmissle

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The client has to be driving this bus, not the lawyer. Somebody at the NFL office should have said, no Mr. Wells, you will not do this. But Pash probably thinks he did great, and the NY tabloids will agree.

I a week, everyone will forget except Tom Brady's lawyers and Robert Kraft's lawyers. Who will be left with valuable sound bites and cross examination material. That's why this is a bad idea.
 

E5 Yaz

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For the legal minds out there: If this gets to an independent hearing or eventual trial, would it help or hurt the Patriots' case to bring in the Mannings, or Rodgers, or Brees, etc. as witnesses regarding pregame ball preparation ... and have them under oath?
 

DJnVa

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After that Ted Wells press conference thing, Kraft needs to go in guns blazing.
 

BroodsSexton

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Hoya81 said:
Would it be considered hearsay?
 
Standards of hearsay are very relaxed in arbitration (i.e., not usually enforced).  It's probably admissible hearsay, in any event, based on various evidentiary exceptions.  Hearsay isn't necessarily inadmissible.
 

RedOctober3829

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Hoya81 said:
The text from JJ to JM saying that JJ spoke to Tom and he knows how much pressure JM is under to get the balls done.
The text means absolutely nothing.  Brady said the following in his January 22nd press conference.
 
BRADY: I obviously read that I said that. I like them at the way that I like them, which is at 12.5. To me, that's a perfect grip for the football. I think that particular term, deflated or inflated, whatever norm you're using, you could probably use. I would never do anything outside of the rules of play. I would never have someone do something that I thought was outside the rules.
REPORTER: So you never knowingly played with a football that was under 12.5-pounds?
BRADY: No.
 
http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/tom-bradys-past-statements-nfl-deflate-gate-investigation-patriots-n355226
 

DJnVa

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Here's what I wonder--the NFL is in total control of the situation--the investigation (through Wells, but you get the point), to the leaks, to the punishment. And after they release the report and the punishment, Brady's agent makes a few statements and says they'll appeal and suddenly the NFL and Wells are on the defensive. To me that makes me think they aren't all that confident. Brady and the Pats haven't even really hit back yet.
 

BroodsSexton

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E5 Yaz said:
For the legal minds out there: If this gets to an independent hearing or eventual trial, would it help or hurt the Patriots' case to bring in the Mannings, or Rodgers, or Brees, etc. as witnesses regarding pregame ball preparation ... and have them under oath?
 
Probably irrelevant.  Not sure the arbitrator would allow them to waste time on it.  It's a sideshow that doesn't go to whether the Patriots or Brady violated the rules here.
 

Gambler7

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Well I thought the Yee media roundup the past week was odd...but he just did his job getting Wells to go off like that and make several statements that are going to be a major problem as this moves along. 
 

Stitch01

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We have close to a decade of evidence of Roger being a Peter Principle over his head executive.  No reason to believe that would change now.
 

E5 Yaz

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BroodsSexton said:
 
Probably irrelevant.  Not sure the arbitrator would allow them to waste time on it.  It's a sideshow that doesn't go to whether the Patriots or Brady violated the rules here.
 
Makes sense. Thanks
 

BroodsSexton

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E5 Yaz said:
 
Makes sense. Thanks
 
Also, you'd never bring them unless you knew what they were going to say.  And it seems unlikely these guys are going to go all-in for Brady, particularly if you're trying to bring them in to show that they violate the rules, too.  
 

PedroKsBambino

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Marciano490 said:
 
The problem is, the NFL is like Tony Soprano going around to NJ divorce attorneys - I think a lot of top firms are conflicted out.  I'm pretty sure we were doing work for the NFL when I was at Williams and Connolly, though I could be mistaken. 
 
Agreed.  Williams has definitely done NFL work, which was mentioned somewhere in the massive thread when discussing potential outside counsel.  I obviously do not know offhand whether they've done enough/work recently enough/of the right kind to consider it a conflict or not.
 

MarcSullivaFan

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Stitch01 said:
Brady is going to an appeals process, wouldn't it be sort of crazy for Yee to release anything publicly?
The most important thing Yee could accomplish right now is convincing Goodell to appoint a neutral. The notes are one potential point of leverage. Of course, that depends on the contents!
 

PseuFighter

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i'm also really shocked that the nfl was cool with wells going out there for a presser. what good could it have possibly served?
 

DJnVa

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Morgan's Magic Snowplow said:
 
Generally speaking, people overrate the impact that one player can make, even the best player at the most important position.
 

That's completely accurate, however if we're going to have a big gulf in expectations, going from the GOAT to a kid making his first starts ever is where you might see it.
 
I know SSS and all that but that 1 game can set up the entire post-season.
 
Then again, I think the suspension will be reduced to no more than 2 games, so we'll see what happens.
 

dcmissle

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Stitch01 said:
We have close to a decade of evidence of Roger being a Peter Principle over his head executive.  No reason to believe that would change now.
"Ted -- I don't give a shit about your butt hurt feelings. You were paid handsomely for this, have been paid handsomely in the past, and will be in the future. You knew going in this was high profile. Your feelings are irrelevant. No good can come of it. Now shut up."
 

BroodsSexton

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PedroKsBambino said:
 
Agreed.  Williams has definitely done NFL work, which was mentioned somewhere in the massive thread when discussing potential outside counsel.  I obviously do not know offhand whether they've done enough/work recently enough/of the right kind to consider it a conflict or not.
 
Well, also knowing the namesake and Firm history, it's unlikely they would find a conflict  :)
 

E5 Yaz

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PseuFighter said:
i'm also really shocked that the nfl was cool with wells going out there for a presser. what good could it have possibly served?
 
Because, unlike what we heard, the importance of it over the next 48 hours is dependent on how it gets boiled down by who the media chooses to interpret it.
 
Yes, it should aid the Pats' case if it goes to neutral arbitration or a court case. But for the general public, that's a long way off
 

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PseuFighter said:
i'm also really shocked that the nfl was cool with wells going out there for a presser. what good could it have possibly served?
 
I'll bet you a nickel the NFL asked him to do the press conference.  The point is for him to get the message out "it's unfair to call me biased just because you didn't cooperate and then lost"--which I guess the NFL thinks is a winning argument.
 

joe dokes

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PseuFighter said:
i'm also really shocked that the nfl was cool with wells going out there for a presser. what good could it have possibly served?
 
He was clearly most interested in responding to the "not impartial" accusation. Sort of a "Let me defend *my* reputation here.
 

Harry Hooper

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ifmanis5 said:
Wells says Tom answered all questions in first interview but Wells is pissed he didn't have proper access to Brady's phone.
 
 
Michael Holley mentioned there are no quotations from Brady or BB in the report.
 

Nick Kaufman

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Average Reds said:
 
But what is that based on? 
 
I mean, he could obviously have known.  But isn't it just as likely that Brady had a tantrum after discovering that he played with balls that were later measured around 16 PSI and told them "I don't care how you do it, but you get those refs to set the ball at 12.5 PSI at the low end of the range."   That would certainly align with Brady wanting to impress upon a ref that the rulebook allowed them to set the balls at 12.5 PSI.
 
I have seen no evidence that says Brady knew or should have known that they may have been adjusting the balls after the ref was done with them.  And there is still no clear evidence that the balls were adjusted below 12.5 PSI at the start of the game.
 
It's also interesting (to me at least) that the two separate issues are being conflated into one.  Because it does appear likely that someone adjusted the balls after the ref looked at them, which is a violation even if the balls were set within the allowable range.  So why was/is Wells and the NFL so intent on proving that the balls were below the 12.5 PSI threshold? 
 
Please do not disregard the most serious of texts which happened in May of 2014, 5 months before the game with the 16psi, in which McNally's text indicate he was deflating the balls in a way that might cause a negative public reaction if it was discovered (I am not going to ESPN).

The October texts indicate several things for me. First of all they indicate that the Pats didn't have a watertight scheme there; it was probably a weekly battle with the refs. But also, that Tom was aware of what was going on. Why would he be concerned that McNally was stressed otherwise? And why would McNally be stressed in the first place if everything he was doing was done by the book? I mean if everything was done by the book, this is as a stress free job as there can be, right?
 
Last, but not least, McNally was constantly leveraging his involvement in order to get more loot. But people leverage their involvement when they go above and beyond. Why would McNally do so and talk in a prickly and disrespectful manner to his superior if all he was doing was his job? And why would that be tolerated? Again, this indicates he was doing something at least somewhat questionable.

Now, having said that. Can there be a relatively innocent explanation for all of this and Brady really not be culpable. yes it might. Does Tom Brady have a defense? yes. Is the case against him proven beyond reasonable doubt. No. But I don't think that these possibilities are the most probable. I think the most probable one is that there was some scheme going on and Tom knew about it. And knowing about it is a bit misleading in this case, because the scheme was instigated by his desires. So it's just not knowing.
 
So, all of the above is the strongest part of the case against Brady. The science, like I ve said before is highly suspect. The alleged crime the most minor out of minor crimes.

I guess we should all be jealous about the people tearing their clothes in sanctimony. They must be really virtuous in their lives, never having cut corners and always doing the squeaky clean thing. Personally, I haven't and I would be really happy if my worst wrongdoing was underinflating balls before a football game in order to gain a subjective, but not objectively proven, edge.
 

bakahump

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I am thrilled at the aspect of the Pats Fighting this.
 
Whats the worse that can happen?  The NFL has already handed down the most sever penalty I can remember.  We fight it and they will make it worse? nah.
 
Instead the NFL brought any bad press it receives as part of the "reaction" on its self.  Of course they and their mouthpieces are playing the "They should just come clean and go quietly" card.
 
Its why you dont ground your daughter for a year for staying out all night at the party.  She will never put up with it and the situation will just escalate.  A rationally, fair and balanced punishment would be much smarter for all involved.  The punishment needs to be enough so that the Patriots (or any future team) say "ehh we better stop" (if there was even anything TO stop in this case)  But not so bad that the punished  say "Fuck it...we got nothing to lose".
 

PedroKsBambino

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Shelterdog said:
 
I'll bet you a nickel the NFL asked him to do the press conference.  The point is for him to get the message out "it's unfair to call me biased just because you didn't cooperate and then lost"--which I guess the NFL thinks is a winning argument.
 
Agreed.   This is still a media game, and the PC is focused on managing general-public perceptions.  
 
If down the road it becomes an actual litigation, some things will be done differently.
 
As an aside, one of the challenges with hiring the 'name' white collar guy at a top firm is that many of them are highly leveraged...and need someone else to remind them of the details, as we heard on the call.   When I express views on the guys, that is part of my personal calculus.  At a few of the top firms, the lead guy actually has read all the documents and transcripts him or herself.  That matters, at the margin, in my opinion.
 

Hoya81

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Nick Kaufman said:
 
Please do not disregard the most serious of texts which happened in May of 2014, 5 months before the game with the 16psi, in which McNally's text indicate he was deflating the balls in a way that might cause a negative public reaction if it was discovered (I am not going to ESPN).
The October texts indicate several things for me. First of all they indicate that the Pats didn't have a watertight scheme there; it was probably a weekly battle with the refs. But also, that Tom was aware of what was going on. Why would he be concerned that McNally was stressed otherwise? And why would McNally be stressed in the first place if everything he was doing was done by the book? I mean if everything was done by the book, this is as a stress free job as there can be, right?
 
Last, but not least, McNally was constantly leveraging his involvement in order to get more loot. But people leverage their involvement when they go above and beyond. Why would McNally do so and talk in a prickly and disrespectful manner to his superior if all he was doing was his job? And why would that be tolerated? Again, this indicates he was doing something at least somewhat questionable.
Now, having said that. Can there be a relatively innocent explanation for all of this and Brady really not be culpable. yes it might. Does Tom Brady have a defense? yes. Is the case against him proven beyond reasonable doubt. No. But I don't think that these possibilities are the most probable. I think the most probable one is that there was some scheme going on and Tom knew about it. And knowing about it is a bit misleading in this case, because the scheme was instigated by his desires. So it's just not knowing.
 
So, all of the above is the strongest part of the case against Brady. The science, like I ve said before is highly suspect. The alleged crime the most minor out of minor crimes.
I guess we should all be jealous about the people tearing their clothes in sanctimony. They must be really virtuous in their lives, never having cut corners and always doing the squeaky clean thing. Personally, I haven't and I would be really happy if my worst wrongdoing was underinflating balls before a football game in order to gain a subjective, but not objectively proven, edge.
Suppose McNally goes to ESPN/NFL in May. What happens?
 

Marciano490

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Nick Kaufman said:
 
Please do not disregard the most serious of texts which happened in May of 2014, 5 months before the game with the 16psi, in which McNally's text indicate he was deflating the balls in a way that might cause a negative public reaction if it was discovered (I am not going to ESPN).
The October texts indicate several things for me. First of all they indicate that the Pats didn't have a watertight scheme there; it was probably a weekly battle with the refs. But also, that Tom was aware of what was going on. Why would he be concerned that McNally was stressed otherwise? And why would McNally be stressed in the first place if everything he was doing was done by the book? I mean if everything was done by the book, this is as a stress free job as there can be, right?
 
Last, but not least, McNally was constantly leveraging his involvement in order to get more loot. But people leverage their involvement when they go above and beyond. Why would McNally do so and talk in a prickly and disrespectful manner to his superior if all he was doing was his job? And why would that be tolerated? Again, this indicates he was doing something at least somewhat questionable.
Now, having said that. Can there be a relatively innocent explanation for all of this and Brady really not be culpable. yes it might. Does Tom Brady have a defense? yes. Is the case against him proven beyond reasonable doubt. No. But I don't think that these possibilities are the most probable. I think the most probable one is that there was some scheme going on and Tom knew about it. And knowing about it is a bit misleading in this case, because the scheme was instigated by his desires. So it's just not knowing.
 
So, all of the above is the strongest part of the case against Brady. The science, like I ve said before is highly suspect. The alleged crime the most minor out of minor crimes.
I guess we should all be jealous about the people tearing their clothes in sanctimony. They must be really virtuous in their lives, never having cut corners and always doing the squeaky clean thing. Personally, I haven't and I would be really happy if my worst wrongdoing was underinflating balls before a football game in order to gain a subjective, but not objectively proven, edge.
 
The thing is, though, why would anyone have thought this was a big deal before now?  It's not like they were trying to hide bodies and given the reaction to San Diego and Carolina/Minnesota this really doesn't seem like it'd have been viewed as some big time cloak and dagger operation.
 

Yossarian

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"And why would McNally be stressed in the first place if everything he was doing was done by the book? I mean if everything was done by the book, this is as a stress free job as there can be, right?"
 
Are you serious?  We know Brady, by his own admission at his original press conference, prefers the balls on the low end of the PSI scale.  We know he's told that to JJ, probably multiple times.  We know he was pissed after at least the Jets game when they felt over-inflated, and we know he's a total perfectionist in all things football.  Given all that, why WOULDN'T a part-time ball boy feel stressed if he knew the golden-boy QB might throw a shit fit if he didn't get the balls to their proper specs?  
 

Lose Remerswaal

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Getting the salary back for suspended games helps to pay the One Meeeeelion dollar fine.
 
And Brady's contract restructure allows the Pats to just let Tom go if they feel he lied to them and made them look bad.
 
 
 
 
 
Not that this is gonna happen.
 

Yossarian

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To put it another way, you're a part-time underling at the bottom of the ladder, who works for an obsessive perfectionist at the very top of the latter who has, multiple times in the past, taken a keen interest in your work product, if not you personally, and has flipped out when it hasn't gone to his liking.  I don't think it requires a conspiracy or a knowing rules violation to feel stress about your job performance under those circumstances -- and it only requires a little bit of recognition by the QB that the worker might feel that way.   
 

Nick Kaufman

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Yossarian said:
"And why would McNally be stressed in the first place if everything he was doing was done by the book? I mean if everything was done by the book, this is as a stress free job as there can be, right?"
 
Are you serious?  We know Brady, by his own admission at his original press conference, prefers the balls on the low end of the PSI scale.  We know he's told that to JJ, probably multiple times.  We know he was pissed after at least the Jets game when they felt over-inflated, and we know he's a total perfectionist in all things football.  Given all that, why WOULDN'T a part-time ball boy feel stressed if he knew the golden-boy QB might throw a shit fit if he didn't get the balls to their proper specs?  
 
So Tom Brady consoles McNally for being stressed because he might throw a shit fit to him later?
 

lambeau

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Wouldn't a real commissioner be heard from around now? I assumed Wells was put out there because Roger is so profoundly inarticulate.