#DFG: Canceling the Noise

Is there any level of suspension that you would advise Tom to accept?


  • Total voters
    208

snowmanny

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 8, 2005
15,747
AB in DC said:
 
You're thinking about this too logically. Perception is reality.
 
Remember what Goodell said about the 2007 case at the time. The punishment came because the Patriots "avoid long-standing rules designed to encourage fair play and promote honest competition". Not that the Patriots actually violated fair play or worked against honest competition, mind you -- just that the rules were there for that reason. How many people actually noticed that distinction? Basically no one. And to this day everyone says that the team illegally spied and cheated to help them win. Smoke and mirrors -- the rest of the sports world is happy that the Patriots got caught and punished, but the weasel words are written just carefully enough to avoid any real scrutiny.
 
So fast forward to 2015 and Goodell says that, because the Wells investigation dug up a lot of dirt that had nothing to do with the science itself. the NFl finds that Patriots did not adhere to rules about football preparation "designed" to protect the integrity of the game, yada yada yada. Regardless of where he ends up with Brady personally, would that surprise anyone? No matter what the science says, the rest of the world thinks that the Patriots cheated with deflated balls. It's a classic case of misdirection. The whole thing started off with accusions of deflated balls, and it's going end up with "well, we're not sure the balls were actually underinflated, but we found some other reason to punish the Patriots instead."
 
Yes, it's all nonsense, but that's the NFL's m.o. Bread and circuses all the time -- who cares about right and wrong when we're making a bazillion dollars every year!
The way I read Vincent's explanation of why Brady was suspended, there are three elements:
 
1) The balls were deflated through some breach in pre-game protocol and we know this because of our scientists and
2) Brady was "generally aware" of this activity and we know that because of the texts and
3) The punishment is greater because of lack of cooperation.
 
I assume you would actually need elements 1 & 2 to both be pretty much clearly true in order to justify a punishment. Really all we may have is a text and "deflator" and a bathroom break and the rest of it is actual crap, but as you say that will probably be enough for them to leave some punishment and enough for the rest of the world to believe everything else.  As for element three who knows what multiplier that gave to the punishment and how they determined four games at all.
 
 
 
The activities of the Patriots' employees were thoroughly documented in the report, including through a series of text messages and telephone communications, as well as evidence of a breach in pre-game protocol. In addition, the conclusions were supported by extensive scientific analysis, as detailed in the report.
 
With respect to your particular involvement, the report established that there is substantial and credible evidence to conclude you were at least generally aware of the actions of the Patriots' employees involved in the deflation of the footballs and that it was unlikely that their actions were done without your knowledge. Moreover, the report documents your failure to cooperate fully and candidly with the investigation, including by refusing to produce any relevant electronic evidence (emails, texts, etc.) despite being offered extraordinary safeguards by the investigators to protect unrelated personal information, and by providing testimony that the report concludes was not plausible and contradicted by other evidence.
 

( . ) ( . ) and (_!_)

T&A
SoSH Member
Feb 9, 2010
5,302
Providence, RI
Peak Oil Can Boyd said:
This actually doesn't seem far-fetched to me. How quickly can discovery happen once a lawsuit is filed?
It will take a very long time.

Somehow you have managed to ignore the fact that this is not a trial and will not have discovery. I don't blame you. The local media is displaying a shockingly level of willful ignorance about the details of how the court case will work. It's. A huge pet peeve of mine.
 

Joe D Reid

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jan 15, 2004
4,217
There have already been a ton of fellow litigators in this thread being dumbfounded about shit, but I can't resist piling on. I absolutely cannot believe that there is no contractual deadline for a response to an appeal. I do some management-side labor work, and even I'm taken aback by the idea that management could just sit on an appeal indefinitely. This whole process is a gross insult to kangaroos.
 

koufax32

He'll cry if he wants to...
SoSH Member
Dec 8, 2006
9,106
Duval
So it's not a big jump to assume this delay is purposeful. We all assumed it was to judge public sentiment after the Hardy appeal. That may be part of it but not the only thing. It leaves the question of motive. Why intentionally drag this on?

Here's my theory: Sheriff Callie knows this is going to court. He knows there is a significant chance he gets blasted. So the plan is to drag this part on as long as possible until people are so sick of it that they don't pay as much attention when a judge laughs off his decision and vacates a suspension.
That, plus I really think that he believes that any publicity is good publicity during the dead months of the league calendar.
 

bankshot1

Member
SoSH Member
Feb 12, 2003
24,759
where I was last at
Can someone here put an approximate timeline on a Federal Court appeal?
 
From the injunction to allow Brady to play to a potential decision by a Judge.
 
Is there any real advantage to the NFL in delaying?
 
Does Brady have to act for relief immediately (or within some specified time period) upon hearing the NFL penalty?
 

johnmd20

mad dog
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 30, 2003
62,075
New York City
In the time this Deflategate joke has gone on, 60% of the Empire State Building was built in 1931. It's reaching lunacy levels at this point.
 

RIFan

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 19, 2005
3,090
Rhode Island
When he finally gets around to announcing the appeal results he'll say something to the effect:
"Serious issues in the process and conduct of NFL officials (ie Kensil) were raised during the appeal.  The NFL thought it was important to thoroughly look into how the internal investigation was handled and any influence it had on the Wells report.  The results of this exhaustive, multi-week review turned up no irregularities and further validated that Ted Wells did an outstanding job, therefore penalty stands as previously decided."
 
 
Time is just a tool to make it look like they are seriously evaluating the appeal.  They probably used focus groups to decide what is the appropriate length of time to announce a decision so it looks like they were diligent. It's all a farce. 
 

RhaegarTharen

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 22, 2005
2,763
Wilmington, MA
Regarding the timing of a ruling - are we in territory where if the appeal is decided too quickly, the full court case could play out before the start of the season?  I'm wondering if Roger might be thinking that if the court rules against the NFL mid-season, it will be talked about for a week max before on-field story lines eclipse it again.  And with Brady likely to obtain an injunction to play while his case is being deliberated, it's not inconceivable that Roger sees this as better all the way around.  He delays ruling on the appeal for as long as it takes to ensure that the court case happens mid-season.  Brady gets to play the opener while the Court Case is pending, and whatever the Court rules, football fans will care about that for a shorter length of time when there is honest-to-Roger football being played every Sunday.  The same will go for any reduction in the suspension for Brady.  Right now Pats haters everywhere have nothing better to do than whine about any "favorable treatment" Brady could get if Roger backs off.  But mid-season?  They'll grumble for a week about it, before being sidetracked by the next week's games.  
 

simplyeric

Member
SoSH Member
Feb 14, 2006
14,037
Richmond, VA
Maybe he's delaying to ensure that TB gets to play the opener at home, ceremony and all that.  
 
He'll announce his decision in the week leading up to that game, to ensure maximum distraction to the Patriots, but more importantly: maximum press and buzz for that game.
 
So he'll say that he's decided to suspend TB for 1 or 2 games, most likely, but those would be the Bills and Jaguars games.
 
The opener will thereby have way more national appeal than normal, etc. etc.
 
 
TB's lawyers will still process their court action and likely get the injunction, and so who knows.  But if he's trying to do what's "best for the NFL (owners)" out of all of this, that's probably it.
 
(edit: sleepyjose you have a different reason for TB getting to play the opener...actually, the opposite reason:  you think he's trying to minimize exposure, I think he's trying to maximize.  My logic is: RG doesn't give a rat's ass about anything moving forward.  The court will say what it says.  So he's trying to generate as much eyeball time as he can out of this little nugget.)
 

MarcSullivaFan

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 21, 2005
3,412
Hoo-hoo-hoo hoosier land.
bankshot1 said:
Can someone here put an approximate timeline on a Federal Court appeal?
 
From the injunction to allow Brady to play to a potential decision by a Judge.
 
Is there any real advantage to the NFL in delaying?
 
Does Brady have to act for relief immediately (or within some specified time period) upon hearing the NFL penalty?
The Peterson ruling took just over two months. I'd say two to three months is realistic.
 

bankshot1

Member
SoSH Member
Feb 12, 2003
24,759
where I was last at
MarcSullivaFan said:
The Peterson ruling took just over two months. I'd say two to three months is realistic.
Thanks
 
So if RG wanted to be as disruptive or increase the risk to their season, if he announces his decision mid-camp, a Federal Judge could hear the appeal in September and issue a ruling by Nov-Dec, and if the NFL's penalty is upheld, the threat of sitting Brady for late season games or the post-season is real?
 

soxhop411

news aggravator
SoSH Member
Dec 4, 2009
46,463
I just got this email

Dear ----,

The NFL would like to hear from you. Please click the button below to take a brief survey.
TAKE SURVEY
Your feedback is important to us and we thank you for your time.

Thanks,
The NFL

Tempted to tell them how terrible they are
 

Marciano490

Urological Expert
SoSH Member
Nov 4, 2007
62,314
soxhop411 said:
I just got this email

Dear ----,

The NFL would like to hear from you. Please click the button below to take a brief survey.
TAKE SURVEY
Your feedback is important to us and we thank you for your time.

Thanks,
The NFL

Tempted to tell them how terrible they are
You totally should. You'd be my hero and feel much better after.
 

kenneycb

Hates Goose Island Beer; Loves Backdoor Play
SoSH Member
Dec 2, 2006
16,149
Tuukka's refugee camp
It's a basic market research survey aimed at getting more demographic information about their users.  It's two questions so people will actually fill it out.
 
Regardless, why the fuck is it in this thread?
 

Average Reds

Member
SoSH Member
Sep 24, 2007
35,413
Southwestern CT
kenneycb said:
It's a basic market research survey aimed at getting more demographic information about their users.  It's two questions so people will actually fill it out.
 
Regardless, why the fuck is it in this thread?
 
soxhop has no filter?
 

soxhop411

news aggravator
SoSH Member
Dec 4, 2009
46,463
“@AlbertBreer: When I've asked about the Brady timeline the last couple months, the one guide I've been given consistently is Ray Rice's last summer. ...”

“@AlbertBreer: ... Rice's initial hearing was on June 16, and his 2-game suspension came July 24. That's 38 days. It's been 29 days since Brady's appeal.”
 

PedroKsBambino

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Apr 17, 2003
31,335
One thing that keeps coming up in this thread, and this incident overall, is how completely and totally unprepared the NFL is to engage in the level of investigation, arbitration, decision making, and litigation that this things has entailed.
 
They have hired a bunch of people last six months (someone from ATF to head investigations, someone from NYC sex crimes, a digital forensics person) to begin to address this, and I think the only realistic conclusion is that the group in place BEFORE these hires was grossly underpowered to do what they were asked to do.  That's entirely consistent with the quality of investigation and decision making we've seen in Rice, Peterson, deflation, etc. proceedings.
 
We've also seen limits of the legal language and process in the CBA, such as the lack of clarity (or at least lack of alignment) around appeals and deadlines.
 
So Goodell has a problem here.  He knows that the NFL didn't have the expertise to run a credible investigation.  He knows the CBA and procedures in place are inadequate.  I find it nearly inconceivable that he hasn't been told by in house/primary outside legal that the Wells report would not stand up to scrutiny and thus is a very shaky platform to build on.  But we really expect him to say "we just didn't have enough horses, so we're throwing it all out?"  I just don't think so.  It's all sad-the enterprise generates huge profits, and they managed to end up with a fourth-rate PR hack as the commissioner and spectacular underinvestment in the office that is supposed to figure these things out ahead of time, not after the fact.  It just doesn't need to be so.
 

Dahabenzapple2

Mr. McGuire / Axl's Counter
SoSH Member
Jun 20, 2011
8,927
Wayne, NJ
soxhop411 said:
I just got this email

Dear ----,

The NFL would like to hear from you. Please click the button below to take a brief survey.
TAKE SURVEY
Your feedback is important to us and we thank you for your time.

Thanks,
The NFL

Tempted to tell them how terrible they are
If I complete the survey, I'm afraid I would be supended from work for 4 days:)
 

Dr. Gonzo

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 8, 2010
5,220
Florio is getting antsy 
 
 
Currently, 29 days have passed since the Brady hearing, and nearly three weeks have transpired since the NFL and NFLPA submitted written briefs regarding their positions, based on the things said at the hearing.
 
“We want to make sure we have a fair and open process,” Goodell added on Tuesday.
 
But the process has concluded. The hearing had ended. And no one seriously believes that Goodell is poring over the transcript with a fully-open mind, bracing for a potential “Eureka!” moment that causes a 180-degree change in his thinking.
 
His mind undoubtedly was made up before the hearing. It’s highly unlikely that anything that happened during the hearing made a difference. For now, the goal is for the league’s lawyers to craft a written ruling that Goodell will sign — and that will be able to withstand the scrutiny of a federal judge.
 
The delay also could be aimed at getting Brady to accept a deal. If, for example, Goodell plans to reduce the suspension to two games, either because that was the plan all along or because that was the wink-nod arrangement when the Patriots dropped their own appeal rights, it’s better to drop the suspension to two games in exchange for an agreement from Brady to drop his right to take the matter to court, ending the matter now.
 
Regardless, this all should have been done long before today. The league needed only five days after the issuance of the 243-page Ted Wells report to drop the hammer on Brady in May. A full month isn’t needed for Goodell to review the decision he previously approved
 
 

joe dokes

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 18, 2005
30,543
Dr. Gonzo said:
Florio is getting antsy 
 
 For now, the goal is for the league’s lawyers to craft a written ruling that Goodell will sign — and that will be able to withstand the scrutiny of a federal judge.
 
RG:  "Hey! How comes you took out the part where I called Brady a poopy doo-doo head. Can't sign it."
 

CaptainLaddie

dj paul pfieffer
SoSH Member
Sep 6, 2004
36,864
where the darn libs live
soxhop411 said:
I just got this email

Dear ----,

The NFL would like to hear from you. Please click the button below to take a brief survey.
TAKE SURVEY
Your feedback is important to us and we thank you for your time.

Thanks,
The NFL

Tempted to tell them how terrible they are
 
You are just an awful poster.
 
 

Ed Hillel

Wants to be startin somethin
SoSH Member
Dec 12, 2007
43,973
Here
E5 Yaz said:
Mike & Mike and Peter King this morning
 
http://espn.go.com/espnradio/play?id=13299660
 
You know what surprises me? That nobody like Peter King has actually just conducted a test. It really wouldn't be all that difficult for a guy like Peter King or Florio to grab 5 footballs, place them in a controlled room temperature climate, and then throw them in a refrigerator or something down around 48 degrees. Then throw some water on it. Try to replicate the conditions as described in the Wells Report as best as possible. It's not like this would take all that much time, effort, or resources. I know others have done it, but I'm still surprised there hasn't been at least one big name media member to do so.
 

pappymojo

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 28, 2010
6,680
Ed Hillel said:
 
You know what surprises me? That nobody like Peter King has actually just conducted a test. It really wouldn't be all that difficult for a guy like Peter King or Florio to grab 5 footballs, place them in a controlled room temperature climate, and then throw them in a refrigerator or something down around 48 degrees. Then throw some water on it. Try to replicate the conditions as described in the Wells Report as best as possible. It's not like this would take all that much time, effort, or resources. I know others have done it, but I'm still surprised there hasn't been at least one big name media member to do so.
 
This could be a two hour live presentation on ESPN.  Take 24 balls.  two gauges.  mark one gauge with a 1 and one with a 2.  mark 12 balls with an X, pump them to 12.5 in a room-temperature room.  mark 4 balls with an A.  pump them to 13.5 in a room temperature room.  mark 8 balls with a C.  Pump them to 13.5 in a room temperature room.  Put all 24 balls in a fridge for an hour. 
 
Take ALL balls out of the fridge.  Start a timer.  Gauge the 12 balls marked with an x first with gauge 1 and record the results.  Then gauge those X balls with gauge 2 and record the results.  Set those balls aside. 
 
Look at the timer.  How long did this take? 
 
Gauge the 4 balls marked with an A with gauge 1 and record the results.  Then gauge those A balls with gauge 2 and record the results. 
 
Take all balls and pump  them to 13.5.  Put them back in the fridge for an hour.  Take all balls out of the fridge.  Leave sitting for half an hour.  Gauge all 24 balls again. 

Compare the results against the results from the Wells report.
 
? = Profit.
 

Harry Hooper

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jan 4, 2002
34,605
pappymojo said:
 
This could be a two hour live presentation on ESPN.  Take 24 balls.  two gauges.  mark one gauge with a 1 and one with a 2.  mark 12 balls with an X, pump them to 12.5 in a room-temperature room.  mark 4 balls with an A.  pump them to 13.5 in a room temperature room.  mark 8 balls with a C.  Pump them to 13.5 in a room temperature room.  Put all 24 balls in a fridge for an hour. 
 
Take ALL balls out of the fridge.  Start a timer.  Gauge the 12 balls marked with an x first with gauge 1 and record the results.  Then gauge those X balls with gauge 2 and record the results.  Set those balls aside. 
 
Look at the timer.  How long did this take? 
 
Gauge the 4 balls marked with an A with gauge 1 and record the results.  Then gauge those A balls with gauge 2 and record the results. 
 
Take all balls and pump  them to 13.5.  Put them back in the fridge for an hour.  Take all balls out of the fridge.  Leave sitting for half an hour.  Gauge all 24 balls again. 
Compare the results against the results from the Wells report.
 
? = Profit.
 
 
If only there were some wacky "science person" on tv who could host this kind of thing...
 

Leather

given himself a skunk spot
SoSH Member
Jul 18, 2005
28,451
Harry Hooper said:
 
 
If only there were some wacky "science person" on tv who could host this kind of thing...
 
...who hadn't already shit all over the idea that we'd like to see proven.
 

simplyeric

Member
SoSH Member
Feb 14, 2006
14,037
Richmond, VA
maybe that guy from America's Test Kitchen could do it, in an episode called "Cooking up a Scandal"
 
 
The episode writes itself, right up to the closing line, when he confirms that there's no reason to believe the balls were modified after inspection:
 
"mmmm...yep, this scandal tastes like bullshit"
 

dbn

Member
SoSH Member
Feb 10, 2007
7,785
La Mancha.
Ed Hillel said:
 
You know what surprises me? That nobody like Peter King has actually just conducted a test. It really wouldn't be all that difficult for a guy like Peter King or Florio to grab 5 footballs, place them in a controlled room temperature climate, and then throw them in a refrigerator or something down around 48 degrees. Then throw some water on it. Try to replicate the conditions as described in the Wells Report as best as possible. It's not like this would take all that much time, effort, or resources. I know others have done it, but I'm still surprised there hasn't been at least one big name media member to do so.
 
Then why don't you do it? 
 
I'm mostly teasing, but it isn't the worst idea. I'd chip in for the cost of one of the footballs, but you'd have to supply the fridge.
 

RedOctober3829

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 19, 2005
55,445
deep inside Guido territory
When a suspended player exercises his appeal rights, a settlement is always possible. In the case of Patriots quarterback Tom Brady and his four-game suspension for doing whatever he did in relation to the #DeflateGate controversy, a league source tells PFT that settlement discussions have indeed occurred.

To date, no progress has been made toward a deal. While it remains possible that something could be worked out, it would be unexpected.

Per the source, NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell is being pushed by a small handful of influential owners to hold firm on the four-game suspension. Working against that pressure, however, is the fear that the four-game suspension would be wiped out by a federal court.

Attorney Gregg Levy, who was one of the finalists for the job Goodell received in 2006, participated in the Brady appeal hearing as a legal consultant to the Commissioner. It’s believed that Levy has been warning Goodell that it will be difficult to make a suspension stick in court, even under the heightened standard that applies to challenging the outcome of a private arbitration agreement.

So while there’s still no good way out of this mess for Goodell, the safest course for him personally would be to hold firm and to force a court to reduce the suspension — since Goodell suffers little or no P.R. consequence when one of his disciplinary decisions is reduced or wiped out by someone else.
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/07/22/settlement-talks-have-occurred-in-brady-case/
 

Papelbon's Poutine

Homeland Security
SoSH Member
Dec 4, 2005
19,615
Portsmouth, NH
And that's exactly why the NFL and the media are so fucked up. Continually getting your actions overturned by a court should make you lose your job. And be burned at the stake in the press in the process
 

dcdrew10

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 8, 2005
1,399
Washington, DC via Worcester
RedOctober3829 said:
Per the source, NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell is being pushed by a small handful of influential owners to hold firm on the four-game suspension. Working against that pressure, however, is the fear that the four-game suspension would be wiped out by a federal court.
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/07/22/settlement-talks-have-occurred-in-brady-case/
I'd love to hear (though we never will) who this handful is; I assume Isray and Biscotti are in it. What a bunch of bad losers. I hope Brady, Kraft, BB go scorched earth.
 

The Mort Report

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 5, 2007
7,002
Concord
pappymojo said:
 
This could be a two hour live presentation on ESPN.  Take 24 balls.  two gauges.  mark one gauge with a 1 and one with a 2.  mark 12 balls with an X, pump them to 12.5 in a room-temperature room.  mark 4 balls with an A.  pump them to 13.5 in a room temperature room.  mark 8 balls with a C.  Pump them to 13.5 in a room temperature room.  Put all 24 balls in a fridge for an hour. 
 
Take ALL balls out of the fridge.  Start a timer.  Gauge the 12 balls marked with an x first with gauge 1 and record the results.  Then gauge those X balls with gauge 2 and record the results.  Set those balls aside. 
 
Look at the timer.  How long did this take? 
 
Gauge the 4 balls marked with an A with gauge 1 and record the results.  Then gauge those A balls with gauge 2 and record the results. 
 
Take all balls and pump  them to 13.5.  Put them back in the fridge for an hour.  Take all balls out of the fridge.  Leave sitting for half an hour.  Gauge all 24 balls again. 
Compare the results against the results from the Wells report.
 
? = Profit.
 
You'd have to think if the science would back up what the league is saying they would have already done this.  With the amount of money the NFL can take away from ESPN you get the feeling that they "advised" ESPN on what a bad idea it would be to do this.  There is absolutely no way this idea has not been floated around, and I can't see any reason outside of the NFL being against it it not happening.  Isn't this like the ultimate Sports Science topic?
 
sleepyjose03 said:
Regarding the timing of a ruling - are we in territory where if the appeal is decided too quickly, the full court case could play out before the start of the season?  I'm wondering if Roger might be thinking that if the court rules against the NFL mid-season, it will be talked about for a week max before on-field story lines eclipse it again.  And with Brady likely to obtain an injunction to play while his case is being deliberated, it's not inconceivable that Roger sees this as better all the way around.  He delays ruling on the appeal for as long as it takes to ensure that the court case happens mid-season.  Brady gets to play the opener while the Court Case is pending, and whatever the Court rules, football fans will care about that for a shorter length of time when there is honest-to-Roger football being played every Sunday.  The same will go for any reduction in the suspension for Brady.  Right now Pats haters everywhere have nothing better to do than whine about any "favorable treatment" Brady could get if Roger backs off.  But mid-season?  They'll grumble for a week about it, before being sidetracked by the next week's games.  
 
I'm going to throw a little more devious idea out there.  I want to first say my understanding of law is limited to undergraduate business classes, so I'm kind of pulling this out of my ass a bit.  Lets say the league did their research, and if this goes to court they are looking at 3-6 months to get it all sorted out.  The longer the delay, then more likely you are talking about losing Brady for possible playoff games if it gets upheld. They could go to Brady and be like "Even if the courts reduce it to one game, its possible that that could be a playoff game, do you want to chance that?" In all honesty I would rather lose him for he first 4 games than to lose him for one when a game really matters more.  I know every game matters, but with the weather late in the season or a possible playoff game?