Don Zimmer has passed away at age 83

Snodgrass'Muff

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It's amazing to me how many Yankees fans are using his death as an excuse to vilify Pedro... again.  Speaks volumes.  Let his body get cold before you start using his corpse as a prop in your campaign to defile the greatest pitcher who ever lived.
 
Anyway, I don't have much of a feeling about Zimmer one way or the other.  I'm not quite old enough to really appreciate his contributions to the game or the damage he did at the helm of the Sox.  I never really felt like he was more than a mascot when with the Yankees.  I'm sad to see him go in the way I would be sad to read an obit for an old high school friend's father in the paper.
 

cromulence

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Snodgrass'Muff said:
It's amazing to me how many Yankees fans are using his death as an excuse to vilify Pedro... again.  Speaks volumes.  Let his body get cold before you start using corpse as a prop in your campaign to defile the greatest pitcher who ever lived.
 
Anyway, I don't have much of a feeling about Zimmer one way or the other.  I'm not quite old enough to really appreciate his contributions to the game or the damage he did at the helm of the Sox.  I never really felt like he was more than a mascot when with the Yankees.  I'm sad to see him go in the way I would be sad to read an obit for an old high school friend's father in the paper.
 
I love that you've found a way to turn Zimmer's death into a way to be offended on behalf of Pedro. Well done.
 

terrynever

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JohntheBaptist said:
 
His book "The Zen of Zim," which came out soon after the 2004 Series run (which he watched from the Yankee bench), made sure to point out that while they were a great team, he felt their long hair, baggy clothes and general demeanor were disrespectful to the game of baseball. 
 
RIP.
Actually, Zim quit the Yankees after the 2003 season due to his ongoing feud with The Boss.
 

HeelDice

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My Zim story ...
 
[SIZE=medium]Don Zimmer looked at me, and the fire burned deeply in his eyes.  And then the cursing began.[/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=medium]It was Saturday, Sept. 13, 1980.  I was a senior at UNC, but three of us – a fellow classmate and a local sports writer – had bolted Chapel Hill for a seven-day baseball trip that included games in Baltimore, Philly, New York and Boston.  On this early-autumn day, my Red Sox, mired near the bottom of the AL East standings, were hosting the New York Yankees in Fenway Park.[/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=medium]My sportswriter friend had spent Friday night’s game in the Fenway press box.  He suggested on Saturday that I use the media pass while he and our other buddy sat in the grandstands.  I was wearing a fraternity T-shirt, shorts and sneakers.[/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=medium]Upstairs, I found a seat beside the Sox beat writer from suburban Lowell.  Two memories are clear from that press-box experience.  First, there was a beer tap available to the media, of which I took full advantage.  Second, Peter Gammons was constantly being summoned to the press-box telephone for incoming calls, probably from beat writers in other cities.  This was, of course, long before the cell-phone revolution.[/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=medium]The Sox were on the way to their fourth loss in a five-game losing streak.  Tommy John took a 4-2 Yankee lead into the bottom of the ninth.  But a couple of singles and a sac fly helped pull Boston within a run.  With two out and the tying run at first, left-handed hitting Jim Dwyer strode to the plate to face the lefty John.  From my armchair position in the press box, this seemed the perfect pinch-hit situation.[/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=medium]Don Zimmer, however, obviously didn’t think so.  Tommy John buzzed Dwyer inside, and the best Dwyer could do was a soft grounder to Willie Randolph at second.  Game over, 4-3.[/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=medium]The Lowell writer was noncommittal on my suggestion that Zimmer pinch-hit for Dwyer.  As he began to write his game story, he deadpanned, “You’ve got a press credential.  Go ask him.”[/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=medium]College kid.  Probably eight draft beers worth of courage in my gut.  A trip to the manager’s office seemed like a wonderful idea.[/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=medium]I got directions, found the proper stairwell and, moments later, stood outside an unmarked door.  A couple of deep breaths later, I turned the knob, opened the door and stepped inside what certainly must have been the most spartan manager’s office since Jimmy Collins skippered the Red Sox in the early 1900s.  (Perhaps Zimmer had already packed his belongings.  He would be fired a few days later.)[/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=medium]There were three of us in this surprisingly small office:  Zimmer, Gammons and me.  Gammons was concluding a humorous story about something Earl Weaver had done the night before, but Zimmer wasn’t finding the humor.  Suddenly Gammons exited.[/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=medium]“Somethin’ for ya?” Zimmer asked as he surveyed the Greek letters on my chest.  New to media work, I was hardly schooled in asking the warm-up question.[/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=medium]“Yeah,” I said.  “I was wondering why you didn’t pinch-hit for Dwyer in the ninth.”[/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=medium]Don Zimmer’s big, round eyes grew bigger and rounder.  I didn’t have one of those micro-cassette recorders, or else Zimmer might’ve rivaled Tommy Lasorda in the post-game-interview hall of fame.  (I didn’t even have a pen and pad.  All I had was, well, me.)[/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=medium]“Who the fuck are you, kid?  What the fuck do you know about managing a fuckin’ baseball game?”  [/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=medium]I had gotten all the answer I wanted and would gladly have departed, but Zimmer wasn’t finished.  His voice grew louder.[/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=medium]“Dwyer’s already got two hits off John in the game.  You gonna tell me Jim Dwyer can’t hit Tommy John?  Huh?  Who the fuck let you in here?  And one other thing – if I bring in a righty, they get Gossage outta the bullpen!  You think we’ve got a better chance against Gossage?”[/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=medium]Irate, Zimmer still managed to toss me a snippet of respect when he tersely asked, “Anything else?”[/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=medium]I didn’t have anything else.  I mumbled my thanks and departed through the same door I’d entered.  Fortunately for me, I didn’t exit with a black eye or a foot in my ass.  Just a lifetime memory.[/SIZE]
 

mabrowndog

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Yeah, that was outstanding and really well-written. I can clearly picture the beet-red furor in Zim's face, and I can hear that puff-cheeked voice of his cursing up a storm, bellowing bitterly in offended anger.
 
 

sfip

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The only thing I have a hard time picturing about that story is that the answer made sense.

If anyone comes across anything Bill Lee says in response to Zimmer's death I'm sure I'm not the only one here who would love to see it.
 

Adirondack jack

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Spacemans Bong said:
Just listened...yeah, he didn't hold back. Not disrespectful per se, but very matter of fact (from his POV) as to why they didn't get along.
 
Where can one go to listen to this?
 

Sprowl

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Buffalo Heads are dancing on his grave.
 
Stampeding it, anyway.
 

LahoudOrBillyC

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This comment is probably too late to generate any feedback, which is perhaps best.  I am going to go the other way with Zimmer.  My view on Zimmer was similar to Dog's for many years but my views have evolved.
 
I love Bill Lee -- one of my favorite ever Red Sox players, I have read his books, seen him in person a few times, had dinner with him (in a small group).  He is a riot.  Had I been 25 in 1975, I would have spent my nights at the Elliot Lounge drinking with the guy.  But if I am the manager, he would make my life a living hell.  He didn't like any of his managers, except Dick Williams (in Montreal), who did not much like Lee.  Because Lee spent all of his free time in the Elliott Lounge, if you were lucky.
 
Zimmer made a lot of mistakes in 1978.  He played his guys into the ground.  He had no bench at all, but whatever, he should have played Jack Brohamer or Tom Poquette more.  I agree with that.
 
Wait, but this is all his fault because he got rid of Bernie Carbo?  The guy who later said he was sniffing blow every day his entire time in Boston?  That guy?  That is the guy we wanted to count on?
 
Yaz got along well with Zimmer.  So did Rice, Eckersley, Fisk, Lynn, Evans, Hobson, and basically the whole team.  The guys that did not like Zimmer, the so-called Buffalo Heads, have been talking about it for 35 years.
 
Zimmer got married at home plate, you know that.  He also stayed married to that same woman for 62 years.  He lived and breathed baseball and his family.  His "crime" in Boston, such as it was, is that he was unable to get along with the guys who were tripping acid and showing up late after spending a night whoring around the wild towns of the American League.  Zimmer is a few years older than my father, who also would have hated working with Lee.
 
Lee says that Zimmer cost him (and us) a World Series.  Maybe so.  But that is a long line, and Bill Lee himself is on that line.  Bill Lee is a funny guy, and he gets us to laugh at his not closing out Game 2, or throwing a meatball to Perez in Game 7.  Ha-ha-ha Bill, you are a riot.  Zimmer, on the other hand, is a monster.
 
Zimmer nearly died from playing baseball twice -- once in the minors, and once with the Dodgers in 1956.
 
Lee also suffered two injuries while playing.  Once during a brawl in the Bronx (but it was the Yankees fault!), and the other, in Montreal, when he fell out of the window of a woman's house.  He was banging the woman when her husband came home, and he jumped out the window.  He tells this story in his book.  He told his manager and the press something else, of course.  Good old Bill Lee, the gamer.
 
Why did Zimmer take Lee out of the rotation in 1978?  I do not know.   He had lost seven consecutive starts -- falling from 10-3 to 10-10.  He wasn't pitching terribly but it was not promising (the collapse in 1978 was 95% the offense).  Would Lee have pulled it together?  Maybe.  I wish Zim had given him 10 days off and then sent him back out there.  Whether Zimmer had had enough of the loudmouth drunk shooting spitballs at him, I have no idea.
 
So Zimmer is dead.  His crimes are managerial errors and not getting along with the Animal House guys on the team.  His credits as a man are numerous and I won't bore you with them.  Personally, I think his overall human resume is pretty great.
 
I would still go drinking with Bill Lee, tonight if he would have me.  But for most other life tasks -- storming Omaha Beach, managing the Red Sox, being my father, marrying my daughter -- I will take the Gerbil.
 

lexrageorge

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Zimmer took most of the blame for the Collapse in 1978, but he did have a flawed team as well.  George Scott was in obvious decline and faded terribly in September (Cecil Cooper's 0.833 OPS that season would have been most welcome).  The bench was non-existent, which left Zimmer with no real options at 3B after Hobson hurt his elbow.  Bill Lee benefited mostly from a favorable BABIP early in the season to go 10-3.  Mike Torrez really didn't pitch much worse late in the season than early; he just couldn't buy a win.  And Carbo was no longer useful to the team in 1978.  The team benefited early in the season from a slew of early injuries to the Yankees and the presence of 2 recent expansion teams in the AL.  
 
And to pick a nit:  Zimmer couldn't play Tom Poquette any more than he did in 1978, as Poquette played for the Royals that season.  
 
Zimmer made mistakes, sure:  there was no reason to play an injured Fisk 157 games (he would miss most of April and May of the following season as well).  Banishing Lee to the bullpen.  Starting Bobby Sprowl, although the team should have called up John Tudor instead (not sure who made that decision). Destroying Bill Campbell's arm with obvious overuse.  
 
Most of the managerial decisions he made would today make us tear our hair out even more than they did at the time.  But I'm not sure he managed any differently than most MLB managers in that era.  
 
Anyway, not defending him; the 1977-79 Red Sox represent lost opportunities for real October baseball, and Zimmer was part of the problem.  But he was hardly the only problem either. 
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

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Why do people say Carbo was no longer useful in '78? Before he was dumped he put up 261/370/391. After he went to Cleveland he put up 287/362/402. That's still a very useful bench player.

 

 
 

bankshot1

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Zimmer made mistakes, sure:  there was no reason to play an injured Fisk 157 games (he would miss most of April and May of the following season as well).  Banishing Lee to the bullpen.  Starting Bobby Sprowl, although the team should have called up John Tudor instead (not sure who made that decision).
Or he could have started Fergie Jenkins, oh no, he couldn't  Fergie was traded for a bag of balls in a deal orchestrated by the Gerbil, and was in Texas in '78 putting together a 18-8 record.249 IP, 3.04 ERA. 
 

lexrageorge

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bankshot1 said:
Or he could have started Fergie Jenkins, oh no, he couldn't  Fergie was traded for a bag of balls in a deal orchestrated by the Gerbil, and was in Texas in '78 putting together a 18-8 record.249 IP, 3.04 ERA. 
You forgot to add:
 
In 2 starts against Boston that year:  2-0, 1.59 ERA (plus one relief appearance in which he admittedly got shelled, but the winning run had already scored by the time he came into the game). 
 

Toe Nash

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It seems fitting that we celebrated the 2004 team recently, as that team would have been largely benched / fought with / hated / sent out of town by Zimmer. Zimmer was raised in baseball with the reserve clause and in a much more conservative country (socially). The manager was the boss and the players were supposed to shut up and listen. Thus, it makes sense that he would act how he did. But the scene in baseball changed in the 70s and the players gained much more autonomy financially, and over time, the role of the manager changed as well. It was no longer about keeping your troops in line, but about putting them in the roles that fit them the best, and keeping them happy enough to perform at their best, which might sometimes involve compromising and learning from errors instead of digging yourself in deeper.
 
It was obvious that Zimmer saw his role as keeping these hippies in line, which was just about the most foolish way to handle Lee or Carbo. Regardless of how much drugs they did, Zimmer ended up undermining some of his best players, when another manager could have gotten the slightly better performance out of them that it would have taken to win a goddamn World Series with such an incredibly talented team. If Francona were managing that team, would Lee have given him tons of headaches? Of course. So did Manny. But he probably would have handled things much better and allowed Spaceman to do his thing as long as he was doing his thing when it was his turn to pitch.
 

Sprowl

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Also, he really did look like a gerbil. Those cheeks could have carried 100 acorns.