Down 3-0, 2004 vs. 2020 comp

terrynever

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Red Sox fans started talking about comebacks from down 3-0 two nights ago. Seemed far fetched but then Houston won a game. And then tonight they won again to make it 3-2. Now we have a decent comparison between 2004 and 2020. But what strikes me is the difference in the style of baseball.

In 2004, the Red Sox used a stolen base to avoid extinction in Game 4. Both teams scored average of six runs per game, skewed by the Yankees’ 19-8 win in game 3. We had high-scoring games like 10-7 in Game 1 and 10-3 in Game 7. We had four tight games, too, 3-1, 6-4, 5-4 and 4-2. There was a nice balance between pitching and hitting. I don’t remember the kind of athletic fielding we see in 2020 but Orlando Cabrera made all the plays at SS for Boston.

In 2020, we see 100 mph pitching arms on parade every night. Solo homers play a key role in outcomes. Both teams are averaging around 3 runs per game. There has been one stolen base in 5 games.

Pitching velocity, strikeouts and athleticism are things we see way more of in 2020. But there is less action, fewer base hits. Pitching is way more important than it was in 2004.

What hasn’t changed is the ferocious competition. Baseball has changed a lot in 16 years but when the playoffs begin, the game remains a test of wills. Boston would not die in 2004. The Astros, hate them as we must, seem capable of doing something we have only seen once before in the history of MLB. They are feeding off the hatred.

On a personal note, as a Yankee fan, 2004 is a long time ago. The pain of losing is gone. I look back now and remember an amazing series between two great teams. And in a pandemic, it is fun to look back and remember how fucking close the Yankees came to a four-game sweep.

Let’s all pray for VORP, our resident Rays fan. Trying to think of a good acronym for his SOSH name. Victory Over Rays .... ? I am stumped.
 

j-man

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idk if he is safe especially if it goes to a game 7 what tampa shouild do is if it goes to 7 just use snell morton gaslow
 

j-man

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Red Sox fans started talking about comebacks from down 3-0 two nights ago. Seemed far fetched but then Houston won a game. And then tonight they won again to make it 3-2. Now we have a decent comparison between 2004 and 2020. But what strikes me is the difference in the style of baseball.

In 2004, the Red Sox used a stolen base to avoid extinction in Game 4. Both teams scored average of six runs per game, skewed by the Yankees’ 19-8 win in game 3. We had high-scoring games like 10-7 in Game 1 and 10-3 in Game 7. We had four tight games, too, 3-1, 6-4, 5-4 and 4-2. There was a nice balance between pitching and hitting. I don’t remember the kind of athletic fielding we see in 2020 but Orlando Cabrera made all the plays at SS for Boston.

In 2020, we see 100 mph pitching arms on parade every night. Solo homers play a key role in outcomes. Both teams are averaging around 3 runs per game. There has been one stolen base in 5 games.

Pitching velocity, strikeouts and athleticism are things we see way more of in 2020. But there is less action, fewer base hits. Pitching is way more important than it was in 2004.

What hasn’t changed is the ferocious competition. Baseball has changed a lot in 16 years but when the playoffs begin, the game remains a test of wills. Boston would not die in 2004. The Astros, hate them as we must, seem capable of doing something we have only seen once before in the history of MLB. They are feeding off the hatred.

On a personal note, as a Yankee fan, 2004 is a long time ago. The pain of losing is gone. I look back now and remember an amazing series between two great teams. And in a pandemic, it is fun to look back and remember how fucking close the Yankees came to a four-game sweep.

Let’s all pray for VORP, our resident Rays fan. Trying to think of a good acronym for his SOSH name. Victory Over Rays .... ? I am stumped.
that series is what got me to really be a yankees fan in 1997 i was a white sox fan but on the trade deadline that year with only 1/and a haif outfrom cleland they trade away Hernandez darwin alaex to SF for minor leaguers which my 14 year old seif was pissed at riderdorf when looking back on it i understand it but still hate it
 

jon abbey

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The Yankees had no pitching in that series, they lost Clemens and Pettitte and Wells after 2003, freaking Jon Lieber was their number two. HOU has very little left behind Vargas and McCullers, I wouldn’t stress too much, plus TB gets last licks now.
 

DeadlySplitter

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I was all but 12 years old in 2004... but I believe the Red Sox deserved to be down 3-0, then they clawed their way out of it in 3 damn close games in a row, then finally the blowout in 7. These were two powerhouse teams.

The Rays snuck by on Altuve's gaffes to build their 3-0 lead. Game 2 they were outhit 10-4, Astros harder contact everywhere, but in a super flukey baseball way the Rays won that one. They are getting a couple HRs a game, but little else on offense. The Astros aren't doing much better, but it has been just enough. You get the sense neither team is actually a powerhouse and things are just evening out right now.

The Astros are hypothetically set up for a meltdown inning as they've needed everyone out of the pen to survive. But until the Rays put together that inning offensively, the series isn't over - unless Snell finally has an ace start tomorrow.
 

joe dokes

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The Yankees had no pitching in that series, they lost Clemens and Pettitte and Wells after 2003, freaking Jon Lieber was their number two. HOU has very little left behind Vargas and McCullers, I wouldn’t stress too much, plus TB gets last licks now.
And the rain out after game 2 eventually wrecked it even more, forcing the last 5 games with no off days. With no offdays at all, Houston is probably going to get similarly exposed here.
 

jon abbey

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Where’s Millar to start with some Jack Daniel’s shots and say, “Don’t let us win tonight?”
He is on MLBN regularly and of course they get him to say it whenever this situation arises, including two days ago.
 

Humphrey

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The Yankees had no pitching in that series, they lost Clemens and Pettitte and Wells after 2003, freaking Jon Lieber was their number two. HOU has very little left behind Vargas and McCullers, I wouldn’t stress too much, plus TB gets last licks now.
...and their bullpen fell apart too, save for Rivera (not like he was hit that hard in his two blown saves). Tom Gordon was a disaster, as I recall; and he was a very important guy.
 

jon abbey

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Tom Gordon was a disaster, as I recall; and he was a very important guy.
Yeah, because their staff was so thin, Gordon pitched in all of the first 5 games of the series and he blew game 5 in the 8th after getting out of a jam in the 7th.

 

terrynever

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Gordon succumbed to the pressure while journeymen like Curtis Leskanic came in and got outs for Boston. At some point after Game 3, Boston stopped worrying and the Yanks started stressing. I don’t believe in teams choking but do believe the emotional stakes can be two different things in a series.

As this pertains to Tampa-Houston, we just have to let the players decide. Some of the Rays’ bullpen looks hittable right now after 10 games in 12 days, 10 games where the starters rarely went more than five innings, often less. Is this the chink in Tampa’s armor?
 

VORP Speed

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Anderson has regressed. That’s biting them right now. Also the Rays play so many close games, there’s a lot more volatility in results with that approach. Even if you believe they have true 1 run game skills, it just doesn’t take much for something to break the wrong way. And their offense is streaky. They go into extended super dead funks. If it weren’t for this crazy Arozarena run, they’d be doing absolutely nothing.
 

BaseballJones

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They've got so many great relievers, they should be able to handle Anderson not being sharp. Just put him in lower-leverage situations for now and roll with one of your 10 other dominant guys.
 

CantKeepmedown

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Gordon definitely was in his head after the Ortiz HR in the 8th. He walks Millar who is then PR for with Roberts. I seem to remember a ton of throw overs to keep Roberts honest. Nixon then singles him to 3rd leading to Tek's sac fly to tie it. The rest is history. What a game that was.
 

terrynever

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Anderson has regressed. That’s biting them right now. Also the Rays play so many close games, there’s a lot more volatility in results with that approach. Even if you believe they have true 1 run game skills, it just doesn’t take much for something to break the wrong way. And their offense is streaky. They go into extended super dead funks. If it weren’t for this crazy Arozarena run, they’d be doing absolutely nothing.
I believe this, too. Close games take a lot out of both teams, and their fans.

This series is really a lab experiment about momentum, without the fans. I am fairly certain the Fenway crowd got to Tom Gordon in 2004 before the Sox did. Imagine sitting in that bullpen with fans right above you, screaming unpleasant things.
 

terrynever

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I believe this, too. Close games take a lot out of both teams, and their fans.

This series is really a lab experiment about momentum, without the fans. I am fairly certain the Fenway crowd got to Tom Gordon in 2004 before the Sox did. Imagine sitting in that bullpen with fans right above you, screaming unpleasant things.
 

tims4wins

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Gordon definitely was in his head after the Ortiz HR in the 8th. He walks Millar who is then PR for with Roberts. I seem to remember a ton of throw overs to keep Roberts honest. Nixon then singles him to 3rd leading to Tek's sac fly to tie it. The rest is history. What a game that was.
Trot's hit was arguably the most important of the entire series
 

Unin10D

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Gordon definitely was in his head after the Ortiz HR in the 8th. He walks Millar who is then PR for with Roberts. I seem to remember a ton of throw overs to keep Roberts honest. Nixon then singles him to 3rd leading to Tek's sac fly to tie it. The rest is history. What a game that was.
Torre also didn't have a lefty he could trust. Felix Heredia had already shit the bed a few times. He didn't want to bring Rivera in for a second six-out save in a row. He was in a bind the moment that Gordon couldn't get outs. I actually went back and checked and not only was Heredia the only lefty in the bullpen, he was the only lefty on staff. That'd be insane today.

Also, a weird statistical thing I noticed that I've never noticed before. I knew Rivera got charged with the blown save, but I never realized that Gordon still got credited with a hold, even though he got charged with the two ER that inning. Baseball is weird
 

54thMA

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"On a personal note, as a Yankee fan, 2004 is a long time ago. The pain of losing is gone."

Good for you.

As much as sports has come down the ladder of importance for me the past few years, the pain of 1978, 1986 and 2003 for the RS and the 2008 SB for the Patriots will leave me once I kick the stick.

1986 and 2008 especially; two outs, two strikes, breaking what was then a 68 year curse and NFL immortality both taken away.

You never get over that.

2004, 2007, 2013, 2018 eased the pain for sure, as did 2015, 2017, 2019, but the pain is still there, it's just a bit further in your rear view mirror.

But it's still there, it's the price you pay for being a fan and actually giving a shit.
 

terrynever

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"On a personal note, as a Yankee fan, 2004 is a long time ago. The pain of losing is gone."

Good for you.

As much as sports has come down the ladder of importance for me the past few years, the pain of 1978, 1986 and 2003 for the RS and the 2008 SB for the Patriots will leave me once I kick the stick.

1986 and 2008 especially; two outs, two strikes, breaking what was then a 68 year curse and NFL immortality both taken away.

You never get over that.

2004, 2007, 2013, 2018 eased the pain for sure, as did 2015, 2017, 2019, but the pain is still there, it's just a bit further in your rear view mirror.

But it's still there, it's the price you pay for being a fan and actually giving a shit.
Yeah, but didn’t you just post in the ALCS about how life’s problems diminish the impact of sports as we grow older? Because that’s what happens to most of us. I still turn to sports for escape but my mood is not ruined for more than 24 hours on YED. Sports fill in the hours when you are caregiving for a wife who was once brilliant and now can’t remember lunch. Or when you bury a brother, or even a dog. When you get past 70, sports is an old friend that gets you through the night. Was there a price to pay for rooting too hard? Yes, defeat is part of sports, and life, too.

This whole thread is about what Sox and Yankee fans went through in 2003-04, and what our pal VORP is facing tonight. He’s younger and his team hasn’t won a pennant in 12 years. I am rooting for VORP and his Rays tonight because nobody should go have to endure a Game 7 after being up 3-0. That’s like running naked down Broadway and you’re not sleeping.
 

terrynever

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You’re a good guy, terry.


You’re jinxing the F out of me with this thread, but I still like you.
I hope not. You guys just have to score a bunch of runs early.

I started the thread for Red Sox fans but now I feel like it’s cathartic for all baseball fans. Winning a championship is never easy. The Rays haven’t even got to the big stage yet. The lessons they learn in this series will make them stronger.
 

54thMA

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Yeah, but didn’t you just post in the ALCS about how life’s problems diminish the impact of sports as we grow older? Because that’s what happens to most of us. I still turn to sports for escape but my mood is not ruined for more than 24 hours on YED. Sports fill in the hours when you are caregiving for a wife who was once brilliant and now can’t remember lunch. Or when you bury a brother, or even a dog. When you get past 70, sports is an old friend that gets you through the night. Was there a price to pay for rooting too hard? Yes, defeat is part of sports, and life, too.

This whole thread is about what Sox and Yankee fans went through in 2003-04, and what our pal VORP is facing tonight. He’s younger and his team hasn’t won a pennant in 12 years. I am rooting for VORP and his Rays tonight because nobody should go have to endure a Game 7 after being up 3-0. That’s like running naked down Broadway and you’re not sleeping.
Yes I did, notice how I said sports has come down the ladder quite a bit as far as "importance"; that said, defeats/the blown championships I referenced still leave a mark.

The Bruins blowing game 7 to the goon squad from St Louis annoyed me for a few days and then that was that, same with the Celtics losing in the ECF to the Heat, ditto to the Patriots losing to the Iggles and their Harry High School coach in the Super Bowl a few years ago.

Those losses just don't sting as much to me anymore, they had far less of an impact on me than the ones I referenced.

You've got ten years on me and I'm sure when I am lucky enough to hit 70, I'll have gained even more perspective on the importance or more to the point, lack of importance sports plays in my life.
 

terrynever

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I was listening to Felger and Mazz the other day and they were talking about how boring the baseball and hoops have become to them. And I thought, they’re getting older, too. It’s gotta be unhealthy, talking about sports for a living.
 

bankshot1

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I always think of the 2004 ALCS as the fitting companion piece to the '2003 ALCS.

Crushing defeat and then redemption.

IMO the 2-series will always be joined in the yin-yang of baseball and the swings and misses of emotions the game puts us through
 

terrynever

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I always think of the 2004 ALCS as the fitting companion piece to the '2003 ALCS.

Crushing defeat and then redemption.

IMO the 2-series will always be joined in the yin-yang of baseball and the swings and misses of emotions the game puts us through
Yes, I have been thinking this, too, mostly because of what’s going on right now. Only Sox fans know how crushing 03 was to them. Same holds true for Yankee fans about 2004.
 

CantKeepmedown

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The 2003 ALCS was undoubtedly the worst sports loss I have ever suffered as a fan. The 2007 SB and 2006 AFCC would be a distant second. I was absolutely despondent for 3-4 days afterwards. From turning off the TV when Boone's ball was in the air, going to bed that night and just staring at the ceiling (my innocent, sleepy wife asking how they did and me just replying, "they lost"), to sleepwalking through work for a couple hours the next morning and ultimately taking sick time the rest of the day. I drove around the neighborhood in silence. My wife had made plans to go out for happy hour/dinner that Friday night and I told her I had no interest and didn't plan on leaving the house until Monday. Looking back, maybe it's a bit silly now. But that pain was real.

2004 was so euphoric and cathartic. And with all the success afterwards I can now watch that Boone HR and just smile. It was a tremendous series capped off but an unbelievable game 7.
 

Danny_Darwin

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I believe this, too. Close games take a lot out of both teams, and their fans.

This series is really a lab experiment about momentum, without the fans. I am fairly certain the Fenway crowd got to Tom Gordon in 2004 before the Sox did. Imagine sitting in that bullpen with fans right above you, screaming unpleasant things.
You know, thinking about what those fans almost certainly said to Tom Gordon specifically makes this less fun for me.
 

terrynever

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You know, thinking about what those fans almost certainly said to Tom Gordon specifically makes this less fun for me.
All part of the game, especially in the northeast. I think we can all see in 2020 how diminished sports are without fans in the stands, regardless of the sport.
 

Hank Scorpio

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I’ve always hated the Devil Rays, and back in the days of Bagwell and Biggio, the Astros were my “other favorite team”.

That said, fuck ‘em. I hope the Rays knock them out.
 

InstaFace

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All part of the game, especially in the northeast. I think we can all see in 2020 how diminished sports are without fans in the stands, regardless of the sport.
I think he was referring to the fact that Gordon likely had some ugly racist remarks thrown his way, and that that's beneath the dignity (or ought to be) of any sports fan or fanbase, and way past the line of "fair heckling".

Anyway, my heart goes out to you VORPster. I'm sure you're lying on the floor in the corner somewhere rocking back and forth in a half-drunken stupor, but, like, we've been there too. Most every one of us here lived through 2003. We had them on the ropes. The vampire was chained to the table, the stake was in our hand, the mallet was raised, and our bumbling moron manager came out and said "ehhh, he's not going anywhere, let's everyone take a coffee break and finish this later", and every horror-movie trope followed from there. So we know how dark it gets. But at least you've still got a chance tonight to see your team make us all laugh this off, and be able to joke about it years from now. We had to wait a year for a chance to go all Braveheart on those jerkfaces. And we never got another shot at the Mets (1986) or Reds (1975). So I hope you and your team can both get up off the mat tonight, muster up some furious anger, and send that sorry excuse for a team back to whatever rock they crawled out from under.