Dunn+Edwards to Memphis
- Thread starter bosockboy
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Their offseason plan was to sign Horford and Durant, and the two max deals required them to either dump James Young stash the 16th pick or two stash both picks. Danny chose unwisely. If he’d known that Durant was 125% front runner he probably would have drafted Brogdon in the 20s as Malc fit the profile of guys he likes to draft in the 20s.
This seems pretty clear, and it's also funny, because people complained for so long about Brad's seeming preference for playing smurfs together.
Turns out it was just bad groceries...
the Twitter handle for, Tomek Kordylewski, the guy posting vids of our new acquisitions
A Woj or Shams trade tweet is barely dry and TIMI already has a five minute video of the new acquisition.
TIMI goes in depth with Celtics video topics. I recently watched his video of Tatum’s side step threes, and eagerly await a new Horford free throw lineup flinch video.
I don't think think this is necessarily true. We only have circumstantial evidence. Kemba was worn down and no longer a reliable, every day player. Carsen never found his three point stroke with Boston. It's certainly true that Stevens wanted to improve the defense and moving these players helped in that, but that's not to say he wouldn't have kept them if they had lived up to prior performance.
I'd agree with this. Carsen Edwards most important job was to shoot well, and he didn't ever manage to do that. He's a useful player if he can make shots, and we probably keep him if he can do that.
How many meniscus surgeries and stem cell injections in Kemba’s left knee would it take to convince you that these aren’t circumstantial? Obviously that number isn’t 3 so just curious.
Not sure the poster is wrong. If Kemba was still healthy and All-NBA Kemba, Stevens probably doesn't trade him. There are rumors that Ainge tried trading Kemba last year. So the poster's contention that there's little evidence Stevens likes a different type of player more so than Ainge seems on point.
It’s obviously too early to know anything with certainty, but it’s not just about the players Stevens has walked away from (which also includes Waters, however insignificant he is), it’s about who he added too. Richardson was an early target and a player Stevens extended for a year at a price above a player option he just picked up. Smart was extended and the organization is talking about using him more at the point. Schroder also doesn’t fit the small, offense only guard mold.
That said, team construction is always a mix of strategy and opportunity and only a foolish GM adheres to the former at the expense of the latter. If Kemba were still good enough offensively to be a borderline top 20 player like he was when Ainge signed him, of course it’s unlikely Stevens would’ve traded him. Stevens isn’t a fool.
Obviously Stevens would have kept pre-injury Kemba--the team might well have already hung #18 if he had lasted one full season instead of 0.5 seasons.
That said, it's pretty clear that, once that was off the table, he likes de-smurfing more than Ainge, and wants to play a lot bigger at the guard positions. If someone like Lillard somehow came available then of course you bend that rule, but it seems like his blueprint is clear otherwise.
That said, it's pretty clear that, once that was off the table, he likes de-smurfing more than Ainge, and wants to play a lot bigger at the guard positions. If someone like Lillard somehow came available then of course you bend that rule, but it seems like his blueprint is clear otherwise.
If size is analog for defensive ability then I agree. It’s true the additions have been essentially long and/or tall, but to me the underlying emphasis is on defense first.
Two caveats: this is possibly confirmation bias on my part as I was convinced the rebuild in brads image would start with D. Also not absolute as I agree kemba might still be here if healthy enough to make consistent contributions.
I'm pretty sure Ainge liked his smurfs but it also could have been personal. He seemed to have a thing for PGs who can POINTZ, but that may have been because Tatum and Brown weren't ready to carry the offensive load. This season, they also kind of lucked into Schroder.
Ainge's real problem was filling the end of the lineup with redundant players. There was really only 1 smurf a year getting significant minutes. Filling the end of the bench with players who need certain situations to succeed is stupid (Carsen Edwards needs to be 1st or 2nd option, can't play with Kemba, Tremont or PP really).
Now, pretty much all the non bigs can play with any of the other non big on the court. The restrictions are gone. This might mean the end of the bench will actually get used more. At the very least, it provides more possibilities. Having Carsen and Tremont on the same team with Kemba Walker/PP makes them virtually unplayable in non garbage time. Instead of playing with a roster of 15, they are playing with a roster of 12/13.
When would the C's as constructed, ever have used for a non elite smurf? PP provides the shooting. Schroder and Smart cover everything else. If there's an injury, maybe they would see a little time. Ironically, they'd have more use for a deep bench smurf this year than in year's past.
When would the C's as constructed, ever use a non elite big like Bruno? If one of TL or Al is in foul trouble or maybe even during specific matchups against small ball 5s that Grant cant cover. At the very least, he's a body, 6 fouls and should provide energy off the bench.
Having a smurf or two is fine. Going beyond that is a huge handicap. The C's had at least 3 last year, and another 2 who probably shouldn't be playing with smurfs (PP, Teague). Last year's team was such a mess. You had 3 bigs who shouldn't be playing together and 5 smalls. That's more than half the roster that has some type of restriction. Disgusting.
This year's restrictions mostly revolve around Kanter. PP should be able to play with everyone. Horford and TL should be able to play together at times. Smart/Schroder/Richardson on the court at the same time may be problematic shooting wise but I don't envision that happening often.
I knew the roster construction sucked last year and knew it was limiting... but writing this all out makes me realize it was even far more limiting than I thought. On paper, the team looked good. In reality, the sum of the team was far less than the individual parts There was no cohesion.
Brad has shown the ability to build a roster that makes sense. Whether it plays out on the court remains to be seen, as the talent on this team isn't any better than last years. The cohesion should be 10 times better but sometimes things don't play out the way they should. I'd personally guess that the cohesion will be worth at least 4-5 wins over last year's team.
And that cohesion comes at the expense of f'n smurfs. It's a win win.
I assumed Brad's image would be 4 wings and a big. All with length and the ability to switch.
I think if Kemba was healthy, they still would have looked into trading him. They would have just ended up with a better return. Kemba strikes me as a bad fit with the Jays on O and D, even if he would be a great 3rd scoring option. Schroder isn't the best fit offensively but should fit in well defensively and score enough to maybe be the 3rd option.
I'm guessing Schroder is 3rd in FGA and PPG anyway.
Ah I just re-read his post and the post he was responding to……I thought his take was without the . following the word evidence. Incredible how one little symbol can change the entire context of ones position. Ignore me, carry on. (…..walks out of room with tail between legs)
The switchability is so important for modern basketball that only the most uniquely talented of smurfs will retain real roles in the modern NBA.
I was 95% sure this is what happened & was going to say something, but decided not to on the 5% chance it would have been I who was mistaken lol.
I don't think Danny was trying to fill his bench with redundant players as opposed to being super-conscious of the luxury tax and trying to build a contender with cost-controlled young players, which is probably harder to do in today's NBA.
IIRC, last year's Cs had seven guys on rookie contracts, and as far as I can tell, that doesn't include the 2-ways or Green or Ojeleye. I would assume that it would be pretty tough to find a NBA finals team that was so young. I would also assume that it's really hard to develop players when there are so many of them needing minutes.
Danny is the one who acquired those players, though. It's not like he had Carsen & Tremont foisted on him in the 2nd round of the 2019 draft.
He chose them over players like [Bruno Fernando], Cody Martin, Daniel Gafford, Eric Paschall, Isaiah Roby, THT, Terance Mann, Jalen McDaniels, etc. (albeit all but McDaniels were after Edwards & before Waters, who went the pick after Waters).
Swinging on wings & not smurfs is the correct play (see Begarin, Juhann).
He chose them over players like [Bruno Fernando], Cody Martin, Daniel Gafford, Eric Paschall, Isaiah Roby, THT, Terance Mann, Jalen McDaniels, etc. (albeit all but McDaniels were after Edwards & before Waters, who went the pick after Waters).
Swinging on wings & not smurfs is the correct play (see Begarin, Juhann).
If this was a one-off I’d give him a pass but he was coming off a team that he built which was redundant with off-the-dribble scorers who all needed their touches. Danny’s redundancy was redundant. It’s no wonder why Wyc looks like he’s 73 now.
JakeRae wrote above that roster construction is always a mix of strategy and opportunity, then noting that only a fool focuses only on the former.
Fwiw, I think that Danny was a bit of a fool in the other direction, prioritizing opportunity at the expense of strategy and mix. Obviously he's hoping that guys pop, and guys at late lottery and below don't have high hit rates. But having a metric fuckton of those guys was no bueno.
Where Brad has been more focused on building a team around his core, I always saw Danny as more focused on just trying to add talent (via trade, draft, or free agency) or mitigate losses of talent (Kyrie, Hayward, etc).
I think it's mythmaking to think that Ainge had a thing for small point guards. He took swings on guys that had good college track records (Prichard, Edwards, Waters) and he hoped they could translate success despite their size. You can certainly argue he didn't construct the roster well last year and I think he'd admit to that, but Prichard was a late first round pick and Edwards and Waters were both second rounders. Why are we arguing about guys Ainge passed on in the second round? Almost none of those picks are going to be good enough to stick on a roster, or at least play meaningful minutes.
Anyway, if you agree that Ainge was somehow in love with small point guards I can see talking yourself into thinking Brad doesn't love them. But I just don't think either of these things are true.
Anyway, if you agree that Ainge was somehow in love with small point guards I can see talking yourself into thinking Brad doesn't love them. But I just don't think either of these things are true.
Because those picks led to poor roster construction. At some point, you stop drafting the BPA and go with the best fit or with someone you can stash. The 2nd round seems like a good place to do that, because as you noted.. most aren't going to stick anyway. May as well gamble with players that may be of some use to the team than players who will be buried behind Kemba.
Or trade the picks and fill the spots with useful vets on min contracts. Ainge used far too many roster spots on unproven players/undeveloped players in general.
This comparison popped into my mind. It's probably stupid, but I'm going to post it anyway...
Dombrowski is to Bloom as Ainge is to Stevens.
Obviously Ainge stockpiled a ton of picks, so on the surface it seems like a silly comparison, but DD & DA both seemed primarily concerned with top end talent & doing whatever it takes to acquire it, which myopic focus led to a championship, but didn't necessarily leave a complete top to bottom roster that makes sense. It's almost a stars & scrubs approach.
CB & BS immediately got to work acquiring players who fill out depth & make sense with modern usage patterns & stategies, creating future flexibility to hopefully put together a sustainable contender for many years to come, & that allows their coach to be able to push whatever button they need to.
Dombrowski is to Bloom as Ainge is to Stevens.
Obviously Ainge stockpiled a ton of picks, so on the surface it seems like a silly comparison, but DD & DA both seemed primarily concerned with top end talent & doing whatever it takes to acquire it, which myopic focus led to a championship, but didn't necessarily leave a complete top to bottom roster that makes sense. It's almost a stars & scrubs approach.
CB & BS immediately got to work acquiring players who fill out depth & make sense with modern usage patterns & stategies, creating future flexibility to hopefully put together a sustainable contender for many years to come, & that allows their coach to be able to push whatever button they need to.
While I didn't care for Danny's last 2 offseasons, I'm not sure he would have done much different than PBS this summer.
The JAYS have reached a new and different stage. Brad is going to ride them hard (does he really have a choice?). The time has come to start adding/deleting players that fit around those two (esp with an eye towards the trade deadline/next summer/Beal intro presser
).Kemba, at his cost, ailments, and style wasn't really the right smurf/PG to have with the JAYS. Danny knew that last summer and aggressively tried to move him (probably pissing off Team Kemba). I also suspect Mike Zarren, has had a bigger say on things than is recognized by the NBA media.
As an aside, I was friendly with the Director of BBall Ops for the Nuggets. Ben introduced me to Zarren a few years ago in Vegas at NBA Summer League. And he basically said Zarren was one of the smartest/nicest executives in the NBA. It would be nice if Wyc/Brad would just name Zarren GM and get it over with (or hire a PC individual and make them Co-GM with Mike)
more on roster construction/changes
https://www.celticsblog.com/2021/9/7/22647777/boston-celtics-offense-better-nba-offseason-jason-richardson-dennis-scroder-al-horford
https://www.celticsblog.com/2021/9/7/22647777/boston-celtics-offense-better-nba-offseason-jason-richardson-dennis-scroder-al-horford
I think Ainge did have a thing for scoring point guards - as evidenced by IT to Kyrie to Kemba.
But I think critiques of Ainge's use of his second round picks (or even late first round picks) borders on the absurd. These are all longshots by definition.
With Pritchard, it looks like Ainge grabbed, in the late first, a legit NBA shooter and rotation player. A guy who can come in cold off the bench and immediately knock down a deep 3. Who knows how he develops from here, but at minimum he is a guy with one valuable skill that plays in the NBA. Edwards could have been that, but he wasn't. You can sort of think of Edwards as a swing and a miss and at
Pritchard as a second swing that connected for a solid liner. Going 1-for-2 in an effort to land an NBA-caliber role player is probably par for the course with late first and early second round picks.
The criticism that I would levy against Ainge is that he held on to those low-value draft picks at the potential expense of useful veterans. However, that’s just speculation on my part. I mean, Presti is going to be in the same boat. We’ll see what he does with it.
I think DA was trying to homegrow a useful bench, rather than having to stock - and replenish every year - the bench with vets on short-term contrats. The other problem with trying to find useful veterans is that once a player demonstrates he is useful, his costs go up very quickly as the probability to replacing that veteran with someone who is useful is low, particularly once a team stops having cap space. We've seen multiple examples of guys who were overpaid because teams couldn't replace that player.
However, the problem as the Cs found out is that when there are so many guys on rookie contracts, there aren't enough minutes available to properly develop players if the team wants to win at the same time. Rock vs. hard place.
You may be right about that, but the stars and scrubs approach has a pretty good track record in the NBA. Not so much in baseball. I like Brad's moves this offseason; I completely agree that he seems to have prioritized roster fit, with an emphasis on defense and how guys complement his two stars, along with future flexibility. I like their projected rotation and think they'll be much improved from last season.
However - this team as currently constituted is not a title contender. If Tatum and Brown can both make another leap forward, maybe you can get there by putting role players smartly around them, but they're not there yet. The simplest way to vault the team into title contention is to add a third star. If Stevens can add Bradley Beal or an equivalent to Brown and Tatum, he should do it without hesitation. I'm confident that if he had the opportunity, he'd gut the roster in order to do so, and count on aging vets coming on board to chase rings along with cheap young guys developing.
The thing I think Ainge and Stevens both share is not going all in until doing so clearly makes you one of the four or so best teams in the NBA. But that's the model in the league; at some point you have to cash in your chips, and that doesn't allow you to spend 12M on the Josh Richardsons of the world.
I have been saying for decades how Ainge gravitated toward combo-guards/scoring guards (like himself) as opposed to traditional PG’s. You can see it in so many of his draft picks……Troy Bell, Gabe Pruitt, Delonte, Lester Hudson, Marcus, Rozier, Pritchard. So many similarities to his own game with many of these players.
Technically Marcus Banks was the pick that year as they & the Grizzlies swapped pre-draft & were picking for each other (#13 Banks & #27 Perk for #16 Bell & #20 Dahntay Jones).
Point still stands, though.
While I agree with everything that you wrote here, I think that Ainge was also trying to find guys who might pop. Romeo and Nesmith in particular are guys whose ceiling he was wishing on, not just their rotation/bench usefulness.
I’m not disagreeing with your larger point, because the error is just more affirmation of what we’ve said for years about his love of combo guards. In the ‘03 draft his choice was Marcus… Banks, not Troy Bell. Bell and Jones were drafted for the Grizz as Banks and Perkins were drafted for Boston. It’s that old Stern era prohibition that draft day trades can’t be announced until the last player has been drafted (but the trade became official right after Memphis selected Perkins).