Duran homophobic slur fallout thread; suspended 2 games

Nacl

New Member
Jan 23, 2012
19
I wish people would stop letting words and ideas have so much power over them. It was an unfortunate choice and he will have to pay his administrative and personal penance, I hope it allows him growth. And while I seriously doubt anyone was emotionally scarred by his word choice, if you are, consult my first sentence. Some of the reactions on this thread are the other side of the horseshoe of people who get triggered about pronouns.
 

PC Drunken Friar

Member
SoSH Member
Sep 12, 2003
15,672
South Boston
Maybe we’re not seeing the same things?

My daughter was in Boston for a two month internship that ended Friday. She was housed in dorms on West Street. I’ve walked down West multiple times, crossed Tremont and walked through the park. Lots of homeless, lots of drug use, the ball field close to Boylston (left of temporary staging if walking toward Gardens) is overgrown. The lawns were not mowed in the two months.

An amazing difference from the Gardens that are well maintained… as I’m sure you know since you’re there.

I grew up on the South Shore, lived on E. Street in Southie and my first apartment was corner of Boylston and Ipswich. I’ve been in and around the city of Boston a great majority of my life.

I really respect you as a longtime SOSH poster and I apologize if I offended you. Really don’t understand how you cannot see what my entire family did see. Not sure what I have to gain by making it up.
I’m not offended. You aren’t “making it up”. You took a very serious situation to one of the biggest and best institutions in .New England and decided to try to make a political point(z!!!) about a mayor where she didn’t actually say anything of the sort. That was your first instinct. I call cap that you (and/or your) family saw that the Common had syringes everywhere. And that fields (one?) were overgrown with weeds. This is a preposterous take and is just false!

Boston has a homeless/mental health/drug problem. It’s also one of the most prosperous cities in the entire fucking world! These two things can exist at the same time. You chose to make it political on the main board. While not being truthful in your statement.
 

PC Drunken Friar

Member
SoSH Member
Sep 12, 2003
15,672
South Boston
I wish people would stop letting words and ideas have so much power over them. It was an unfortunate choice and he will have to pay his administrative and personal penance, I hope it allows him growth. And while I seriously doubt anyone was emotionally scarred by his word choice, if you are, consult my first sentence. Some of the reactions on this thread are the other side of the horseshoe of people who get triggered about pronouns.
This is a disgusting post and an insult to anyone who has ever had to feel the wrath of the bigoted words (and other ones that he didn’t say) that Duran yelled out on national TV.
 

donutogre

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 20, 2005
3,491
Philadelphia
I wish people would stop letting words and ideas have so much power over them. It was an unfortunate choice and he will have to pay his administrative and personal penance, I hope it allows him growth. And while I seriously doubt anyone was emotionally scarred by his word choice, if you are, consult my first sentence. Some of the reactions on this thread are the other side of the horseshoe of people who get triggered about pronouns.
So basically because it doesn’t bother you, it shouldn’t bother others? Got it. Spoken like someone who has never been on the receiving end of a slur used to demean their identity.
 

rodderick

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 24, 2009
14,150
São Paulo - Brazil
I wish people would stop letting words and ideas have so much power over them. It was an unfortunate choice and he will have to pay his administrative and personal penance, I hope it allows him growth. And while I seriously doubt anyone was emotionally scarred by his word choice, if you are, consult my first sentence. Some of the reactions on this thread are the other side of the horseshoe of people who get triggered about pronouns.
This is just utterly, incredibly dumb. What a fucking asshole.
 

GB5

New Member
Aug 26, 2013
798
His first game back from suspension is Wednesday at home vs Texas. Wonder if the Sox sit him to avoid the home crowd?

Thursday is in Baltimore.
 

RorschachsMask

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 23, 2011
7,251
Lynn
I wish people would stop letting words and ideas have so much power over them. It was an unfortunate choice and he will have to pay his administrative and personal penance, I hope it allows him growth. And while I seriously doubt anyone was emotionally scarred by his word choice, if you are, consult my first sentence. Some of the reactions on this thread are the other side of the horseshoe of people who get triggered about pronouns.
What the fuck is this? What was going through your head? Sound like a Facebook commenter.
 

Mystic Merlin

Member
SoSH Member
Sep 21, 2007
50,321
Hartford, CT
I wish people would stop letting words and ideas have so much power over them. It was an unfortunate choice and he will have to pay his administrative and personal penance, I hope it allows him growth. And while I seriously doubt anyone was emotionally scarred by his word choice, if you are, consult my first sentence. Some of the reactions on this thread are the other side of the horseshoe of people who get triggered about pronouns.
This post betrays someone with the personality of table salt, how fitting.
 

nellenelle

New Member
Jul 14, 2005
14
I wish people would stop letting words and ideas have so much power over them. It was an unfortunate choice and he will have to pay his administrative and personal penance, I hope it allows him growth. And while I seriously doubt anyone was emotionally scarred by his word choice, if you are, consult my first sentence. Some of the reactions on this thread are the other side of the horseshoe of people who get triggered about pronouns.
On one hand, I support depowering words. As a transgender lesbian, I was a member of a sizeable lesbian social media site in the infancy of the internet, and we did exactly that with derogatory words, especially a term traditionally directed at queer women that the founder used to title the site. On the other hand, it is for us to do when *we* wish to, not at the direction or dictate of those outside of our community who do things like to tell us we need to toughen up, block our ears, or whatever the hell else that you expect us to do.

I do not wish to see Jarren condemned as a person into infinity. This is a learning opportunity both for him and the rest of us in how we respond to marginalised communities or anyone who might be different. The key to that rests with him. He has to do the heavy lifting. In turn, I'm prepared to move on and return to watching him share his wonderful baseball gifts with us fans.
 

PC Drunken Friar

Member
SoSH Member
Sep 12, 2003
15,672
South Boston
His locker room question & answer today shows me is real immature and may not actually grasp the enormity of his choice of words. He obviously is uncomfortable, but saying “About what?” When asked if he has heard from the MLB and saying that he immediately apologized to the umpire and catcher after he said it (but not to the fan) but that the TV stream probably didn’t hear that. Fuck this guy.
 

patinorange

don rickles jr
SoSH Member
Aug 27, 2006
33,524
6 miles from Angel Stadium
His locker room question & answer today shows me is real immature and may not actually grasp the enormity of his choice of words. He obviously is uncomfortable, but saying “About what?” When asked if he has heard from the MLB and saying that he immediately apologized to the umpire and catcher after he said it (but not to the fan) but that the TV stream probably didn’t hear that. Fuck this guy.
Did I see he was wearing the “f …em” shirt pre game today? If he did, not smart.
 

JazziBlaster

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 16, 2013
14
Austin, TX
You know, one of the peculiarities of being both a member of the trans community and a lifelong sports fan is that it's often necessary to compartmentalize the notion that some, quite possibly many/most, of the male athletes I'm paying to cheer for are actively disgusted by me.

Incidents like this surely make that compartmentalization more complicated. I am in my early 40s and had gradually drifted away from baseball over the years, as appears to be common, but this season I have been attempting to renew my love affair with the Red Sox. I'm mostly a Celtics fan, and this young Sox team with its fairly low expectations were the perfect tonic for the stress of the Celtics title run.

And I have genuinely had a lot of fun watching the team grow this season. However, it's hard to look at the young men in that dugout and not think about how if I encountered a group of them on the street I'd probably worry just a bit for my safety. Is that fair to those guys? Maybe not, but my life experience is what it is. And maybe that thought is a small window into the trans experience.

I don't think I even know what I would like to happen in the long term with Duran. I want to live in the kind of society where people who make honest mistakes have the opportunity to learn and grow and redeem themselves. I have no idea what kind of man Jarren Duran truly is or what's in his heart, so I won't suggest I know what the best road forward is.

But I do know he's made my compartmentalization-based fandom a far more challenging endeavor. And I'm going to have to spend some time reflecting on whether or not I really want to keep watching these games. Hopefully while I'm reflecting on things Jarren Duran will be doing the same.
 

azsoxpatsfan

Does not enjoy the go
SoSH Member
May 23, 2014
5,022
His locker room question & answer today shows me is real immature and may not actually grasp the enormity of his choice of words. He obviously is uncomfortable, but saying “About what?” When asked if he has heard from the MLB and saying that he immediately apologized to the umpire and catcher after he said it (but not to the fan) but that the TV stream probably didn’t hear that. Fuck this guy.
He seems incredibly anxious and uncomfortable during interviews and in front of cameras, constantly clarifying questions and speaking really softly, I don’t think we can read into that too much. I’m about his age and grew up saying that word a lot. I had no idea how offensive it was or of the etymology, but everyone around including coaches would use it. I learned it was unacceptable when I was a freshman in college, and he should have learned that long ago as well, but it doesn’t tell me that he’s an actual bigot. How he acts from here on out will tell us everything that I personally need to know, but I’m not going to close the door on him yet. He’s shown an ability to grow and learn tremendously over the past few years
 

Reverse Curve

New Member
Sep 11, 2021
107
On one hand, I support depowering words. As a transgender lesbian, I was a member of a sizeable lesbian social media site in the infancy of the internet, and we did exactly that with derogatory words, especially a term traditionally directed at queer women that the founder used to title the site. On the other hand, it is for us to do when *we* wish to, not at the direction or dictate of those outside of our community who do things like to tell us we need to toughen up, block our ears, or whatever the hell else that you expect us to do.

I do not wish to see Jarren condemned as a person into infinity. This is a learning opportunity both for him and the rest of us in how we respond to marginalised communities or anyone who might be different. The key to that rests with him. He has to do the heavy lifting. In turn, I'm prepared to move on and return to watching him share his wonderful baseball gifts with us fans.
I've spent the better part of the last couple of hours reading through these six pages of posts, and re-reading many for sure. I appreciate everyone's opinion... Everybody has one, and although I don't claim to understand all of them, it is clear that we have all had different life experiences, culminating here in this alternating fascinating and gut punching thread. I love this place, and have so from the early days. Before (or if) the thread gets moved to the nether regions where non-members can no longer see or speak, I want to commend @nellenelle, @Mantush and others here for sharing their measured, real life experiences, and I agree with second chances. I hope to see genuine contrition from him, and will continue rooting for him.
 
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Van Everyman

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 30, 2009
29,392
Newton
I actually think it would be great if someone could show Jarren this thread as part of his work going forward. I think he’d learn a lot about this issue, how it makes people feel, how it impacts the community directly and what fans want to see from him.

Does SoSH have anyone who could share it with someone within the org?
 

AbbyNoho

broke her neck in costa rica
SoSH Member
Jan 20, 2006
12,258
Northampton, Massachusetts
I wish people would stop letting words and ideas have so much power over them. It was an unfortunate choice and he will have to pay his administrative and personal penance, I hope it allows him growth. And while I seriously doubt anyone was emotionally scarred by his word choice, if you are, consult my first sentence. Some of the reactions on this thread are the other side of the horseshoe of people who get triggered about pronouns.
EVEN IF it was a word he meant as a generic insult, It's not about the word itself specifically hurting in isolation. I mean, it does, but that's not really what the whole thing is about. It's about how it sets an precedent of it being okay to treat this group of people as lesser. When I hear someone say that word I think that person is a jerk and potentially a danger, but I deal with it. But if everyone around them just plays it off as not a big deal? Then I am truly concerned that this place is not physically safe for me. I've been been physically assaulted and injured many times before. This isn't theoretical. It's how I have to engage with the world on a daily basis to make sure I am not physically hurt again.

You know, one of the peculiarities of being both a member of the trans community and a lifelong sports fan is that it's often necessary to compartmentalize the notion that some, quite possibly many/most, of the male athletes I'm paying to cheer for are actively disgusted by me.

Like I said earlier in this thread, I personally don't really care about Jaren Duran. Likely nothing is going to make me think he's anything other than an asshole from now on (especially considering how outspoken he is about his own mental health, it strikes me as pretty bad that he doesn't apply that sort of grace to others). But there's lots of assholes in the world I ignore. I'm far more concerned about being told, and seeing genuinely, that the culture of Fenway is a place where I don't need to be on guard. The "It Gets Better" thing was so important to me because it was the players saying it. It blew my mind that professional athletes would openly advocate for acceptance like that. I can support the Red Sox if they employ a Jaren Duran. I can't support the Red Sox if they employ a Jaren Duran and normalize/downplay his narrowminded worldview.
 

Tokyo Sox

Baka Gaijin
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Feb 16, 2006
6,481
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I was at the Sox game on Friday night and they paid tribute to and had a moment of silence for Billy Bean. They showed Bean's picture on the big screen, and over the PA highlighted his contribution to the game, noted he was the second-ever openly gay ex-player, and that he was iirc the first MLB "Ambassador for Inclusion." I was so proud of the organization and so happy that I was there with my daughter, who even at 14 has for many years been staunch in her ally-ship. It felt like real progress.

Seeing the headline a couple days later about Duran's comments, what a gut punch.

Hopefully while I'm reflecting on things Jarren Duran will be doing the same.
Thanks for the post and the perspective and, yes, I really really hope so.
 

In my lifetime

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Lifetime Member
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Dec 18, 2003
976
Connecticut
Who among us has never done or said something that has hurt another person?
Who among us has never been on the receiving end of some utterance that has been bitterly hurtful towards us or a group we identify with?

Being unable to forgive someone will lead to a very unhappy life for both the offender and the one who has been offended.
Forgive, try to understand and teach, then hope the lesson is learned.
 

Sin Duda

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 16, 2005
1,208
(B)Austin Texas
Thanks to many of you giving us your perspective that comes from a vantage point different than mine. The comments especially from those of you who are gay or trans are particularly impactful to me. I hope, after this discussion, I will stand up for you should a situation arise where you felt threatened or even insulted in my presence. Thank you everyone for continuing and improving my own education.
 

Ralphwiggum

Well-Known Member
Gold Supporter
SoSH Member
Jun 27, 2012
10,337
Needham, MA
I just want to say I greatly appreciate the perspectives of the LGBTQ+ members of SOSH who have weighed in on this topic. Thank you all so much for participating in this thread.
 

cornwalls@6

Less observant than others
SoSH Member
Apr 23, 2010
6,884
from the wilds of western ma
Other than possibly the length of the suspension, it seems like the organization has done what it should’ve done about the incident. A very quick statement of disapproval and apology, followed up by press availability and the suspension. It’s up to Duran now. At minimum, he needs to keep his head down, and never do anything like that again. I would hope he goes a step further, and becomes a vocal advocate for LGBTQ + rights and safety, becomes an anti-bullying spokesperson, etc. What I really hope doesn’t happen is some sort of framing of this as another him against the world, fuck em all thing. I really hope for the sake others impacted by him, and himself, he rises to the occasion in the right way.
 

Mantush

Member
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Jul 30, 2014
780
EVEN IF it was a word he meant as a generic insult, It's not about the word itself specifically hurting in isolation. I mean, it does, but that's not really what the whole thing is about. It's about how it sets an precedent of it being okay to treat this group of people as lesser. When I hear someone say that word I think that person is a jerk and potentially a danger, but I deal with it. But if everyone around them just plays it off as not a big deal? Then I am truly concerned that this place is not physically safe for me. I've been been physically assaulted and injured many times before. This isn't theoretical. It's how I have to engage with the world on a daily basis to make sure I am not physically hurt again.
There's no evidence he didn't mean it as anything other than a generic insult. Like, literally none, zero. He had no clue whether the fan was LGTBQ. It was not targeted. It was not said hatefully. It was not said with insulting you or your physical safety in mind.


Like I said earlier in this thread, I personally don't really care about Jaren Duran. Likely nothing is going to make me think he's anything other than an asshole from now on (especially considering how outspoken he is about his own mental health, it strikes me as pretty bad that he doesn't apply that sort of grace to others). But there's lots of assholes in the world I ignore. I'm far more concerned about being told, and seeing genuinely, that the culture of Fenway is a place where I don't need to be on guard. The "It Gets Better" thing was so important to me because it was the players saying it. It blew my mind that professional athletes would openly advocate for acceptance like that. I can support the Red Sox if they employ a Jaren Duran. I can't support the Red Sox if they employ a Jaren Duran and normalize/downplay his narrowminded worldview.
There's literally nothing he did, or said, to infer that he has a "narrowminded worldview." He used a word. He did not use it maliciously towards you, me, or any other member of the LGBTQ community. He used it to effectively call somebody an asshole.

I wish people would stop letting words and ideas have so much power over them. It was an unfortunate choice and he will have to pay his administrative and personal penance, I hope it allows him growth. And while I seriously doubt anyone was emotionally scarred by his word choice, if you are, consult my first sentence. Some of the reactions on this thread are the other side of the horseshoe of people who get triggered about pronouns.


This probably gets into the politics board area... but this post doesn't deserve the hate it is getting. The right is triggered by pro-noun usage. The left is triggered by words without context. Outrage politics is childish and tiring. Not everything is about you. The sooner everyone realizes that the better off we'll all be.
 

donutogre

Member
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Jul 20, 2005
3,491
Philadelphia
This probably gets into the politics board area... but this post doesn't deserve the hate it is getting. The right is triggered by pro-noun usage. The left is triggered by words without context. Outrage politics is childish and tiring. Not everything is about you. The sooner everyone realizes that the better off we'll all be.
This is a false equivalency. These things are not the same, and shouldn't be treated the same.
 

jezza1918

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 19, 2005
3,752
South Dartmouth, MA
None of us know the guy. So this is all guesswork right? If I had to guess, I dont think he meant to use the word in a targeted, hateful way towards the LGBTQ+ community. That said, the fact that at his age he's using that word as a substitution for a generic 'asshole' insult leads me to also guess that at the very least homophobia doesn't bother him, even if he might not be homophobic himself. Words matter, they've always mattered.
 

Brianish

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Dec 11, 2008
5,876
I understand why, but I feel like we're over-prioritizing Duran's personal growth and his sincerity or lack thereof in a lot of these discussions. The end goal is that LGBTQ members of the Red Sox community feel welcome and valued. If Duran experiences personal growth as part of that, that's a bonus, and it's great, but I really couldn't care less. He represents the organization, which is much, much bigger than his internality.
 

HfxBob

goes on and on...
Nov 13, 2005
940
This probably gets into the politics board area... but this post doesn't deserve the hate it is getting. The right is triggered by pro-noun usage. The left is triggered by words without context. Outrage politics is childish and tiring. Not everything is about you. The sooner everyone realizes that the better off we'll all be.
Yes, the vitriol that post received was something to behold.
 

blueline

Member
SoSH Member
Nov 23, 2012
458
There's literally nothing he did, or said, to infer that he has a "narrowminded worldview." He used a word. He did not use it maliciously towards you, me, or any other member of the LGBTQ community. He used it to effectively call somebody an asshole.
Umm no, he and others use the word because they find it to be a derogatory and degrading term. The idea that this is totally unrelated to how he feels about LGBTQ people, or at the very least how he very obviously feels free to speak about them, is ridiculous.

This probably gets into the politics board area... but this post doesn't deserve the hate it is getting. The right is triggered by pro-noun usage. The left is triggered by words without context. Outrage politics is childish and tiring. Not everything is about you. The sooner everyone realizes that the better off we'll all be.
Beyond embarrassing you can't distinguish between being angered at the use of someone's preferred pronouns and being angered by the use of a derogatory slur.
 

Fratboy

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Nov 29, 2003
19,097
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As a 20+ year member of this board, and as a member of the queer community, it's heartening to hear the multitude of voices condemning Duran's on-field actions, and this is a great chance for a gifted athlete in the prime of his career in the public eye to learn the power of words. There are a few here who are whitewashing this, and that's disappointing to see, but Duran does have an opportunity here to broaden his horizons, grow as a human being, and lift people up, as he's been lifted and encouraged his entire life.

But yeah, if you can't tune out the tame hecklers, bring a professional athlete might not be the right line of work for you.
 

JimBoSox9

will you be my friend?
SoSH Member
Nov 1, 2005
16,712
Mid-surburbia
Yes, the vitriol that post received was something to behold.
And I hope anyone who felt marginalized by that post beheld the reaction.

I get, personally, the mindset of not letting words affect you - I don't like surrending control of my good mood to assholes. But expecting everyone else to be able to just follow along that path by wishing it so is pretty disrespectful to experiences others have had.
 

NickEsasky

Please Hammer, Don't Hurt 'Em
SoSH Member
Jul 24, 2001
9,858
Yes, the vitriol that post received was something to behold.
It's always a slippery slope when you try to tell other people, especially marginalized ones, how they should feel and react to things. The vitriol might have been over the top, but questioning the post shouldn't have been.
 

Tokyo Sox

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Feb 16, 2006
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There's no evidence he didn't mean it as anything other than a generic insult. Like, literally none, zero. He had no clue whether the fan was LGTBQ. It was not targeted. It was not said hatefully. It was not said with insulting you or your physical safety in mind.
A truly breathtaking dismissal of the post you responded to.

There's literally nothing he did, or said, to infer that he has a "narrowminded worldview." He used a word. He did not use it maliciously towards you, me, or any other member of the LGBTQ community. He used it to effectively call somebody an asshole.
He aggressively used a word that means gay as an insult. Is it okay to imply that gay = bad? Seems pretty simple. Though I admit I remember a time when I didn't see that. Hopefully you, Jarren Duran, and others can learn from this.

Many members of this board have been hurt and marginalized by such language for most of their lives. Telling them effectively that they should lighten up is, at best, unhelpful imho.

EDIT: my apologies, I just saw your post in the poll on Duran thread. I guess you certainly don't need me to educate you on any of this or tell you what other people have gone through. Your take seems unique though and while I'm glad you weren't bothered, it does still seem like you're being overly dismissive of folks who didn't react the same way.
 
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trs

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 19, 2010
693
Madrid
First of all, thank you to all who have contributed to this discussion, and also thank you to the moderators who have kept this on the "main board" to allow for a wider audience to something that is extremely important about sport, and that is its culture.

What I wanted to add is that for me the essential question here is "why?" It's also a question that we will probably never get a full answer to. The term Duran used is a homophobic slur, and there is no discussion there. However, whether or not Duran used it actively as one is the question. It is possible as some have suggested that he used it as a generic insult, similar to asshole, directed at a singular heckler, and not trying to insult an entire community. It is also possible that he knew full well what the term meant and was taking advantage of the term's meaning intentionally and therefore was insulting not just the heckler but an entire community of people intentionally.

Regardless of his intent, what I think is important to look at is how this word came out of his mouth and not any other. Maybe English needs a few more cuss words that aren't rooted in homophobia, but regardless, that Duran chose that specific word does mean something. It reminds me a bit of some of what I have to deal with in terms of my job, which is teenage discipline at schools. I work in an international school in Spain, and we have groups of students for whom "maric*n" is an insult (similar meaning to the term Duran used) that they throw around on the recess field if they think no teacher is around to hear it. Anyway, in a discussion with one of the kids who used it, the kid something along the lines of what some have said here, that they certainly are not commenting on anyone's sexuality and that its just a general insult and nothing more, basically that the recess field is not a place where they discuss sexual preferences, it's where they play futbol.

In that discussion two things came up for me -- one that has been brought up here in terms of Duran, and that is why that term is an insult. Why not just call that kid who missed the pass an "asshole?" We talked about that term specifically. "Asshole" is an insult because of what the word brings along with it -- someone calling someone else an asshole is not inviting a discussion of anatomy, but rather associating you with something smelly (at times), looks funny (most times), and excretes shit. Why you would call someone a "maric*n" or "fa****" could be because of the associations with that word being derogatory for you and is in fact exposing homophobia on your part. If this is the case with Duran, I do hope there is an attempt to educate and expose him to other perspectives than that hateful one(s) he has now. Hell, a perusal of this thread would be an amazing start. Yes, he's 27 but he's also probably lived his life in a way most of us can't imagine -- extremely closed circles involving baseball, baseball, and more baseball.

This brings me to the other aspect of the discussion I had with one of the kids at my school, and it turned into a school discussion, and that has to do with community. Is that a word that gets thrown around a lot? The kids at my school aren't oblivious, they know that "maric*n" is not a word they should use. So more often than not, we as teachers don't hear the word. Just like we as baseball fans don't normally hear baseball players say anything that bad, because these guys know, as I'm sure Duran does, that certain words can't be said. Now what this episode might betray is that some of these guys know they shouldn't say certain words but for the wrong reasons -- perhaps just because of image or marketing or kids in the stands might hear it, or it could be picked up on tv and then we would have a problem. Those aren't really the reasons why you shouldn't say certain words. Maybe they're reasons why you shouldn't yell "asshole" at the top of your lungs, but why not to yell what Duran yelled is for different, and more important, reasons. So when that word comes out the mouth of the player, it could be because it's a word that does get thrown around when the players think there are no "teachers" around to hear it. Is it as someone here did reference to "locker room talk." If so, that needs immediate addressing by the Red Sox, and it's not a Duran problem, it's a clubhouse problem. Just as in the case at my school, if certain hateful words are used frequently when students think they can't get "in trouble" for saying it, then that is truly toxifying for a community. That's when the word is hurtful, and that is when people can learn very quickly that who they are is not accepted, and is in fact an insult. Of course whether hateful words are used prevalently in the clubhouse is known only to a select group of people, and I'm not one, so again this is just supposition.

In short, if it's a Duran thing, I hope they work hard to expose him to other ideas than the ones he's had and demand that he work hard to reflect on what he said and who we wants to be. If it's more than a Duran thing, then I hope the Red Sox understand that suspending one player two days is probably not going to help much.

Lastly, a thank you again to all who have contributed to this thread, it's evidence of how open and and honest discussion can be so helpful.
 

Fratboy

Mr. MENsa
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19,097
McCarver Park
There's no evidence he didn't mean it as anything other than a generic insult. Like, literally none, zero. He had no clue whether the fan was LGTBQ. It was not targeted. It was not said hatefully. It was not said with insulting you or your physical safety in mind.




There's literally nothing he did, or said, to infer that he has a "narrowminded worldview." He used a word. He did not use it maliciously towards you, me, or any other member of the LGBTQ community. He used it to effectively call somebody an asshole.



This probably gets into the politics board area... but this post doesn't deserve the hate it is getting. The right is triggered by pro-noun usage. The left is triggered by words without context. Outrage politics is childish and tiring. Not everything is about you. The sooner everyone realizes that the better off we'll all be.
I've been on the receiving end of this word more times than I can imagine, as have you, I'm sure, and I'm interpreting your post as weariness from hearing it your entire life. I've had to perform emotional labor to remove that word from friends' vocabularies, and it worked. We suffer together.

But the word in question is now a third rail. It wasn't when I was growing up, and probably not for you, either. Language changes, evolves, and mutated.

What we're seeing here is a reaction to (condemnation of?) language leading directly to systemic and institutional hatred.

"Not everything is about you," yes, but you're seeing reactions of "this isn't right," people communicating that it's far preferable to intentionally treat people with kindness, dignity, and respect.

When we encounter regressive speech, we try to make sense of it, and that's what's happening here.
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

Found no thrill on Blueberry Hill
SoSH Member
Sep 9, 2008
44,212
AZ
There's literally nothing he did, or said, to infer that he has a "narrowminded worldview." He used a word. He did not use it maliciously towards you, me, or any other member of the LGBTQ community. He used it to effectively call somebody an asshole.
It is the equating of being gay with being an asshole that is literally the problem. This seems so obvious that I don’t even understand the response. This response proves like the entire point.

I agree we cannot be sure what is really in Duran’s heart or mind. So I would concede that while what he did is unpleasant and gross, the incident alone does not tell us one way or the other whether he is also maliciously intolerant or evil. So it is bad but possibly not really really bad? Hooray? Point Durran?

But there is certainly “literally [some]thing” he did to give us at least a starting point for deciding whether to give him the benefit of the doubt. He chose that word — as opposed to all the other possibilities — as his top of mind synonym for asshole.

We all have to decide for ourselves how to feel about that, and I am certainly not trying to suggest to you how you should feel about it. But surely you cannot really be surprised that many here reasonably are seriously bothered that a guy used that slur as his top of mind synonym for asshole and had zero hesitation about shouting it in public in 2024. While wearing the uniform of our favorite team. On tv.
 
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Fratboy

Mr. MENsa
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Nov 29, 2003
19,097
McCarver Park
First of all, thank you to all who have contributed to this discussion, and also thank you to the moderators who have kept this on the "main board" to allow for a wider audience to something that is extremely important about sport, and that is its culture.

What I wanted to add is that for me the essential question here is "why?" It's also a question that we will probably never get a full answer to. The term Duran used is a homophobic slur, and there is no discussion there. However, whether or not Duran used it actively as one is the question. It is possible as some have suggested that he used it as a generic insult, similar to asshole, directed at a singular heckler, and not trying to insult an entire community. It is also possible that he knew full well what the term meant and was taking advantage of the term's meaning intentionally and therefore was insulting not just the heckler but an entire community of people intentionally.

Regardless of his intent, what I think is important to look at is how this word came out of his mouth and not any other. Maybe English needs a few more cuss words that aren't rooted in homophobia, but regardless, that Duran chose that specific word does mean something. It reminds me a bit of some of what I have to deal with in terms of my job, which is teenage discipline at schools. I work in an international school in Spain, and we have groups of students for whom "maric*n" is an insult (similar meaning to the term Duran used) that they throw around on the recess field if they think no teacher is around to hear it. Anyway, in a discussion with one of the kids who used it, the kid something along the lines of what some have said here, that they certainly are not commenting on anyone's sexuality and that its just a general insult and nothing more, basically that the recess field is not a place where they discuss sexual preferences, it's where they play futbol.

In that discussion two things came up for me -- one that has been brought up here in terms of Duran, and that is why that term is an insult. Why not just call that kid who missed the pass an "asshole?" We talked about that term specifically. "Asshole" is an insult because of what the word brings along with it -- someone calling someone else an asshole is not inviting a discussion of anatomy, but rather associating you with something smelly (at times), looks funny (most times), and excretes shit. Why you would call someone a "maric*n" or "fa****" could be because of the associations with that word being derogatory for you and is in fact exposing homophobia on your part. If this is the case with Duran, I do hope there is an attempt to educate and expose him to other perspectives than that hateful one(s) he has now. Hell, a perusal of this thread would be an amazing start. Yes, he's 27 but he's also probably lived his life in a way most of us can't imagine -- extremely closed circles involving baseball, baseball, and more baseball.

This brings me to the other aspect of the discussion I had with one of the kids at my school, and it turned into a school discussion, and that has to do with community. Is that a word that gets thrown around a lot? The kids at my school aren't oblivious, they know that "maric*n" is not a word they should use. So more often than not, we as teachers don't hear the word. Just like we as baseball fans don't normally hear baseball players say anything that bad, because these guys know, as I'm sure Duran does, that certain words can't be said. Now what this episode might betray is that some of these guys know they shouldn't say certain words but for the wrong reasons -- perhaps just because of image or marketing or kids in the stands might hear it, or it could be picked up on tv and then we would have a problem. Those aren't really the reasons why you shouldn't say certain words. Maybe they're reasons why you shouldn't yell "asshole" at the top of your lungs, but why not to yell what Duran yelled is for different, and more important, reasons. So when that word comes out the mouth of the player, it could be because it's a word that does get thrown around when the players think there are no "teachers" around to hear it. Is it as someone here did reference to "locker room talk." If so, that needs immediate addressing by the Red Sox, and it's not a Duran problem, it's a clubhouse problem. Just as in the case at my school, if certain hateful words are used frequently when students think they can't get "in trouble" for saying it, then that is truly toxifying for a community. That's when the word is hurtful, and that is when people can learn very quickly that who they are is not accepted, and is in fact an insult. Of course whether hateful words are used prevalently in the clubhouse is known only to a select group of people, and I'm not one, so again this is just supposition.

In short, if it's a Duran thing, I hope they work hard to expose him to other ideas than the ones he's had and demand that he work hard to reflect on what he said and who we wants to be. If it's more than a Duran thing, then I hope the Red Sox understand that suspending one player two days is probably not going to help much.

Lastly, a thank you again to all who have contributed to this thread, it's evidence of how open and and honest discussion can be so helpful.
Thank you for completely and totally nailing it.

Also, big big shoutout to the choir of queer voices on this site, and thank you for courage in speaking truth to your lived experiences.

And a bigger thanks to the allies on this site who have accepted and embraced our community on this site and in their personal lives.
 

Sin Duda

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 16, 2005
1,208
(B)Austin Texas
First of all, thank you to all who have contributed to this discussion, and also thank you to the moderators who have kept this on the "main board" to allow for a wider audience to something that is extremely important about sport, and that is its culture.

What I wanted to add is that for me the essential question here is "why?" It's also a question that we will probably never get a full answer to. The term Duran used is a homophobic slur, and there is no discussion there. However, whether or not Duran used it actively as one is the question. It is possible as some have suggested that he used it as a generic insult, similar to asshole, directed at a singular heckler, and not trying to insult an entire community. It is also possible that he knew full well what the term meant and was taking advantage of the term's meaning intentionally and therefore was insulting not just the heckler but an entire community of people intentionally.

Regardless of his intent, what I think is important to look at is how this word came out of his mouth and not any other. Maybe English needs a few more cuss words that aren't rooted in homophobia, but regardless, that Duran chose that specific word does mean something. It reminds me a bit of some of what I have to deal with in terms of my job, which is teenage discipline at schools. I work in an international school in Spain, and we have groups of students for whom "maric*n" is an insult (similar meaning to the term Duran used) that they throw around on the recess field if they think no teacher is around to hear it. Anyway, in a discussion with one of the kids who used it, the kid something along the lines of what some have said here, that they certainly are not commenting on anyone's sexuality and that its just a general insult and nothing more, basically that the recess field is not a place where they discuss sexual preferences, it's where they play futbol.

In that discussion two things came up for me -- one that has been brought up here in terms of Duran, and that is why that term is an insult. Why not just call that kid who missed the pass an "asshole?" We talked about that term specifically. "Asshole" is an insult because of what the word brings along with it -- someone calling someone else an asshole is not inviting a discussion of anatomy, but rather associating you with something smelly (at times), looks funny (most times), and excretes shit. Why you would call someone a "maric*n" or "fa****" could be because of the associations with that word being derogatory for you and is in fact exposing homophobia on your part. If this is the case with Duran, I do hope there is an attempt to educate and expose him to other perspectives than that hateful one(s) he has now. Hell, a perusal of this thread would be an amazing start. Yes, he's 27 but he's also probably lived his life in a way most of us can't imagine -- extremely closed circles involving baseball, baseball, and more baseball.

This brings me to the other aspect of the discussion I had with one of the kids at my school, and it turned into a school discussion, and that has to do with community. Is that a word that gets thrown around a lot? The kids at my school aren't oblivious, they know that "maric*n" is not a word they should use. So more often than not, we as teachers don't hear the word. Just like we as baseball fans don't normally hear baseball players say anything that bad, because these guys know, as I'm sure Duran does, that certain words can't be said. Now what this episode might betray is that some of these guys know they shouldn't say certain words but for the wrong reasons -- perhaps just because of image or marketing or kids in the stands might hear it, or it could be picked up on tv and then we would have a problem. Those aren't really the reasons why you shouldn't say certain words. Maybe they're reasons why you shouldn't yell "asshole" at the top of your lungs, but why not to yell what Duran yelled is for different, and more important, reasons. So when that word comes out the mouth of the player, it could be because it's a word that does get thrown around when the players think there are no "teachers" around to hear it. Is it as someone here did reference to "locker room talk." If so, that needs immediate addressing by the Red Sox, and it's not a Duran problem, it's a clubhouse problem. Just as in the case at my school, if certain hateful words are used frequently when students think they can't get "in trouble" for saying it, then that is truly toxifying for a community. That's when the word is hurtful, and that is when people can learn very quickly that who they are is not accepted, and is in fact an insult. Of course whether hateful words are used prevalently in the clubhouse is known only to a select group of people, and I'm not one, so again this is just supposition.

In short, if it's a Duran thing, I hope they work hard to expose him to other ideas than the ones he's had and demand that he work hard to reflect on what he said and who we wants to be. If it's more than a Duran thing, then I hope the Red Sox understand that suspending one player two days is probably not going to help much.

Lastly, a thank you again to all who have contributed to this thread, it's evidence of how open and and honest discussion can be so helpful.
This is really good and insightful. Thanks for posting. I agree with others who believe it is a Duran opportunity to improve but also an opportunity for the Red Sox to assess their culture, and Breslow's, Kennedy's and Coras comments give me encouragement that they *will* makes strides forward from this.
 

Montana Fan

Member
SoSH Member
Oct 18, 2000
9,524
Twin Bridges, Mt.
This probably gets into the politics board area... but this post doesn't deserve the hate it is getting. The right is triggered by pro-noun usage. The left is triggered by words without context. Outrage politics is childish and tiring. Not everything is about you. The sooner everyone realizes that the better off we'll all be.
Very, very few people attempt to live by this credo. I admire you for trying and for your comments in this thread.
 

Montana Fan

Member
SoSH Member
Oct 18, 2000
9,524
Twin Bridges, Mt.
As a 20+ year member of this board, and as a member of the queer community, it's heartening to hear the multitude of voices condemning Duran's on-field actions, and this is a great chance for a gifted athlete in the prime of his career in the public eye to learn the power of words. There are a few here who are whitewashing this, and that's disappointing to see, but Duran does have an opportunity here to broaden his horizons, grow as a human being, and lift people up, as he's been lifted and encouraged his entire life.

But yeah, if you can't tune out the tame hecklers, bring a professional athlete might not be the right line of work for you.
Good post. As someone whose views have evolved over the years, partly due to people on this site, my hopes for Duran are the same as yours.
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

Found no thrill on Blueberry Hill
SoSH Member
Sep 9, 2008
44,212
AZ
Very, very few people attempt to live by this credo. I admire you for trying and for your comments in this thread.
This is a serious question and not intended to be inflammatory — in fact it is more a reflection of my own ignorance about what people mean when they talk about “outrage politics.”

Are we talking about politics at all here? We are on page 6 of a thread that has really been helpful and interesting to me, discussing the fact that a popular Red Sox publicly called a fan a “fa***t” on tv. And what to make of it.

I think I must have a more cramped view of either “politics” or “outrage politics,“ than others do, but I actually thought the post you quoted was taking the discussion off track and not really even responsive to what most others were talking about.
 

LeoCarrillo

Do his bits at your peril
SoSH Member
Oct 13, 2008
11,293
I just assume like 80% of male pro athletes are assholes. I mean, how many guys who are fawned over by a society that places weirdly high levels of esteem on physical ability since those guys were about 7 years old, then makes them millionaires in their 20s, how many of them do you figure are really considerate, thoughtful guys. I’m going 20%. Guys who are active in their communities with youth programs, for example. I’d also guess another, say, 20% get some perspective as they get older.

So, while not defending the slur (Duran should know at this point it’s ugly), I’m a little surprised by the level of shock, appall and disappointment. Your sports heroes are probably assholes. They get paid millions to run and jump and whatnot. Not to think. The less you know about them personally, the more you’ll enjoy the games.
 
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InsideTheParker

persists in error
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
42,583
Pioneer Valley
The less you know about them personally, the more you’ll enjoy the games.
This is one of the core beliefs of one of my best friends, who likes many more sports than I do. When I pass on stuff about players I picked up on Sosh, she reminds me that She Doesn't Want to Know. OK, it's just sports. So long as her determined ignorance doesn't encompass more important aspects of life, I have to respect that. My husband always reminds me: "How did you feel about the jocks in your high school?" That most of them were jerks, of course. Bullies. Indifferent to learning. Whenever an athlete transcends that, it's wonderful and a welcome surprise.
 

HfxBob

goes on and on...
Nov 13, 2005
940
In that discussion two things came up for me -- one that has been brought up here in terms of Duran, and that is why that term is an insult. Why not just call that kid who missed the pass an "asshole?" We talked about that term specifically. "Asshole" is an insult because of what the word brings along with it -- someone calling someone else an asshole is not inviting a discussion of anatomy, but rather associating you with something smelly (at times), looks funny (most times), and excretes shit. Why you would call someone a "maric*n" or "fa****" could be because of the associations with that word being derogatory for you and is in fact exposing homophobia on your part. If this is the case with Duran, I do hope there is an attempt to educate and expose him to other perspectives than that hateful one(s) he has now. Hell, a perusal of this thread would be an amazing start. Yes, he's 27 but he's also probably lived his life in a way most of us can't imagine -- extremely closed circles involving baseball, baseball, and more baseball.
Kids, or adults, who drop passes or strike out with the bases loaded get called a whole gamut of things. Aside from the homophobic and obscene ones you also have words like "choker" or "loser" or you have words that mean get them out of here, I never want to see them playing for my team again. Just check out the game threads here. It's all part of the ugly side of sports culture, and it's universal.
 

LeoCarrillo

Do his bits at your peril
SoSH Member
Oct 13, 2008
11,293
This is one of the core beliefs of one of my best friends, who likes many more sports than I do. When I pass on stuff about players I picked up on Sosh, she reminds me that She Doesn't Want to Know. OK, it's just sports. So long as her determined ignorance doesn't encompass more important aspects of life, I have to respect that. My husband always reminds me: "How did you feel about the jocks in your high school?" That most of them were jerks, of course. Bullies. Indifferent to learning. Whenever an athlete transcends that, it's wonderful and a welcome surprise.
I bet a lot of relief pitchers are cool and funny. You’ve gotta look to the nonstars for personality and some perspective. Like how Andy Van Slyke was known as the best quote for sportswriters.