Duran homophobic slur fallout thread; suspended 2 games

Fratboy

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This probably gets into the politics board area... but this post doesn't deserve the hate it is getting. The right is triggered by pro-noun usage. The left is triggered by words without context. Outrage politics is childish and tiring. Not everything is about you. The sooner everyone realizes that the better off we'll all be.
This isn't about politics - what we're discussing has zero legislative impact.

Fundamentally, this is about being better to our fellow human beings. Honestly, it's so, so freeing to be kind and loving to people, and to unconditionally give and receive gratitude.

Hate is what's childish and tiring.
 

simplicio

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So, while not defending the slur (Duran should know at this point it’s ugly), I’m a little surprised by the level of shock, appall and disappointment. Your sports heroes are probably assholes. They get paid millions to run and jump and whatnot. Not to think. The less you know about them personally, the more you’ll enjoy the games.
I don't think I've seen a single utterance of shock in here. And my personal enjoyment of a baseball team is not the central issue at play. Like I said in the other Duran thread, the rate of suicide attempts amongst LGBTQ teens is over 4x higher than their peers. Duran publicly contributed to the culture that maintains that disparity. The appall and disappointment are entirely warranted.
 

LeoCarrillo

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I don't think I've seen a single utterance of shock in here. And my personal enjoyment of a baseball team is not the central issue at play. Like I said in the other Duran thread, the rate of suicide attempts amongst LGBTQ teens is over 4x higher than their peers. Duran publicly contributed to the culture that maintains that disparity. The appall and disappointment are entirely warranted.
Why disappointment then?

Add for substance: Meaning, did you have an expectation that a sports star would be forward-thinking and be part of the movement to help push the discussion of tolerance in a positive direction?
 

HangingW/ScottCooper

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To be clear, did the team suspend him ahead of MLB? I fully support this decision and hopefully it's lesson learned by Duran.

What's throwing me is some of the other discussion on this thread about Duran. What he said was inexcusable, but I was of the impression that previously Duran was well liked by Cora, teammates and fans. Is that not the case?
 

LeoCarrillo

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Because you generally hope that any given figure with public reach isn't going to open their mouth and make the day worse for members of a disadvantaged group? Is that a real question?
I added a bit for context above. But my point was that my assumption is the overwhelming majority of male pro athletes are assholes. I didn’t say it excuses what Duran said. My point is that I’m not surprised in the least. That’s why they teach these guys to respond to reporters’ questions in cliches.
 

luckiestman

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I added a bit for context above. But my point was that my assumption is the overwhelming majority of male pro athletes are assholes. I didn’t say it excuses what Duran said. My point is that I’m not surprised in the least. That’s why they teach these guys to respond to reporters’ questions in cliches.
To me, you’re conflating two things. It’s kind of surprising/shocking that he would do this in public directed at a fan but not at all shocking that a pro athlete uses insensitive language .
 

simplicio

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Not sure if I was unclear in my first response, but I don't think anyone has actually expressed real surprise about him doing this, and I believe we all generally agree there are unfortunate quantities of assholes in professional sports. But there's a wide gulf in meaning and effect between private and public behavior and Duran crossed it.
 

John Marzano Olympic Hero

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For me, this is just another thing to throw on the pile of "Is Jarren Duran actually worth it?" There was the anti-vax stuff, the loafing in the outfield and now this. He's been on the team for four seasons and it seems like it's always something with this guy. And seriously, wearing a "Fuck 'em" t-shirt while you're apologizing? Good gravy, get some perspective Edge Lord.

For as much shit as I give the Sox and their ownership, I do think that they try really, really hard for Fenway Park to be a place where everyone is welcome. As an organization, the Red Sox' biggest sin was one of being owned and run by bigots. Forget the Curse of the Bambino, the Red Sox didn't win because their shithead owner and his drinking buddies who ran the club couldn't stand to have a black guy in uniform (no matter how many Hall of Famers were practically gifted to them on silver platters).

Duran is no Tom Yawkey or Pinky Higgins. But his type of attitudes is hard to square with what FSG has built over the last 20+ years. I'm pretty sure that Sox are serious about inclussion and making sure everyone feels welcome at Fenway Park. Telling Matt Dermody to hit the bricks is easy, trading the reigning All-Star Game MVP is quite a bit harder. With the outfield talent they have in the pipeline combined with his idiocy, I don't think that Duran is proving to be a net negative for the Red Sox and their brand. It wouldn't shock me if he was traded in the winter.
 

Carroll Hardy

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No need to comment on Duran’s conduct at this point, it’s obviously been rightfully condemned.

But…Why the fuck is a home team All Star player with a 6.5 WAR being razzed from behind the plate at Fenway Park in the first place??
 

kfoss99

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Why respond to the heckler in the first place? Especially if the heckler said he needed to bring a tennis racket to the plate. That's a pretty ancient and G-rated insult. Prove him wrong at the plate. The whole situation showed a lot of poor decision making on Duran's part.

It would seem to me that if a heckler said something offensive the player should be able to instruct the umpire to have the fan removed. This happens in the NBA.

This situation stinks, especially, coming off of last season when we brought up Matt Dermody from AAA, who had a history of making homophobic remarks.

Duran does this and the team is faltering in a season that seemed like it would have some sustained joy and that seems to be falling away.
 

Trapaholic

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This whole incident is the exact opposite of the Belichick platitude "Ignore the noise". Getting chirped in a 10-run game and getting so rattled he immediately responds with a slur. He clearly has the "rabbit ears" and simply cannot focus on the task at hand when things are getting tough. I am not looking to downplay the word that was used, but this once again speaks to a lack of focus and discipline.
 

LeoCarrillo

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To me, you’re conflating two things. It’s kind of surprising/shocking that he would do this in public directed at a fan but not at all shocking that a pro athlete uses insensitive language .
Not sure if I was unclear in my first response, but I don't think anyone has actually expressed real surprise about him doing this, and I believe we all generally agree there are unfortunate quantities of assholes in professional sports. But there's a wide gulf in meaning and effect between private and public behavior and Duran crossed it.
I don’t think I disagree with anything in here. My response was to the word choice of “disappointment.” If you’re disappointed when anyone, anywhere is intolerant, then okay. But I’d choose disgusted or dismayed maybe. Like if . . . and I don’t want to lose my V&N privileges here . . . but if a member of one of our two political parties, the one that extra likes red ties, went on TV and expressed intolerance, would you be “disappointed?” Maybe it’s just semantics. But I think for many on here, it’s a loss of an ability to root freely for someone because now they know he’s at least kind of an asshole. If we’re really spotlighting the use of the word “disappointment,” then by my thinking it’s because you either a) expected him to be a progressive ally (not likely); or b) are disappointed because now you can’t root for him without dissonance.

So, if b) then part of your disappointment in this instance is that you’re feeling badly for the reduction in your entertainment.
 
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jon abbey

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No need to comment on Duran’s conduct at this point, it’s obviously been rightfully condemned.

But…Why the fuck is a home team All Star player with a 6.5 WAR being razzed from behind the plate at Fenway Park in the first place??
Aaron Judge got booed in Yankee Stadium in the postseason the same season he hit 62 HRs (and was about to hit free agency!!). Most fans (of every team) are entitled idiots.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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Aaron Judge got booed in Yankee Stadium in the postseason the same season he hit 62 HRs (and was about to hit free agency!!). Most fans (of every team) are entitled idiots.
People keep getting caught up in the fans role. There is no practical control for that.

Professional sports have been played in front of millions of people and fans have said many terrible, personal things to players. Most of them do not react so its doable.

Duran may not be capable of that part of the job.
 

simplicio

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I don’t think I disagree with anything in here. My response was to the word choice of “disappointment.” If you’re disappointed when anyone, anywhere is intolerant, then okay. But I’d choose disgusted or dismayed maybe. Like if . . . and I don’t want to lose my V&N privileges here . . . but if a member of one of our two political parties, the one that extra likes red ties, went on TV and expressed intolerance, would you be “disappointed?” Maybe it’s just semantics. But I think for many on here, it’s a loss of an ability to root freely for someone because now they know he’s at least kind of an asshole. If we’re really spotlighting the use of the word “disappointment,” then by my thinking it’s because you either a) expected him to be a progressive ally (not likely); or b) are disappointed because now you can’t root for him without dissonance.

So, if b) then part of your disappointment in this instance is that you’re feeling badly for the reduction in your entertainment.
No. The disappointment is he's given a platform, he uses it in a shitty way to hurt members of a marginalized community, and then retains that platform. So the members of that community are stuck watching the leadoff hitter of their favorite team remind them several times a night that the world thinks they're less than. That's beyond a "reduction in entertainment," that's a joyful experience immediately soured. It sucks, and I'm not clear why you appear to be trying to find semantic offramps to minimize it.
 

HfxBob

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No. The disappointment is he's given a platform, he uses it in a shitty way to hurt members of a marginalized community, and then retains that platform. So the members of that community are stuck watching the leadoff hitter of their favorite team remind them several times a night that the world thinks they're less than.
He's not getting a free pass by any means though. He's been suspended, he's been publicly condemned. Hopefully he will make further amends in some way. The words can't be unsaid, but maybe there can be a positive outcome.
 

YTF

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I don’t think I disagree with anything in here. My response was to the word choice of “disappointment.” If you’re disappointed when anyone, anywhere is intolerant, then okay. But I’d choose disgusted or dismayed maybe.
Isn't this just semantics? These are all negative reactions, some stronger than others, but IMO convey the same general feeling. Perhaps you can reach out to Duran and help him out with his word choices. ;)
 

Petagine in a Bottle

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Yeah. And I think most of us would laugh if someone said "You need a tennis racquet!". Even tough we all actually would and even then fail.

I mean, that's a pretty lame burn.
Yeah, it seems like it would actually be significantly more difficult to hit a baseball with a tennis racket. Duran should have pointed out the factual inaccuracy and absurdity of the heckle, frankly.
 

cornwalls@6

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They don’t need anyone worrying too much about them, but the all pro athletes are meat heads/bigots/bullies takes in here aren’t really very insightful or interesting. Duran deserves the heat he’s getting, and the suspension. Assuming his teammates are all the same is a pretty lazy, low value take.
 

YTF

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They don’t need anyone worrying too much about them, but the all pro athletes are meat heads/bigots/bullies takes in here aren’t really very insightful or interesting. Duran deserves the heat he’s getting, and the suspension. Assuming his teammates are all the same is a pretty lazy, low value take.
Not directed at you, but there's part of the problem in how many of us view these things. In one breath we should assume nothing about these guys and in the next we should assume there all assholes.
 

Marciano490

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Not directed at you, but there's part of the problem in how many of us view these things. In one breath we should assume nothing about these guys and in the next we should assume there all assholes.
Jung writes about this phenomenon a lot, man’s unwillingness to look at evil in himself or those closest to him, so his excitement at being able to locate it in other groups. Here, pro athletes, a society nobody here belongs to. Or 27 year olds. Or people with mental health issues. We locate and discuss the evil (homophobia) at a distance from us, not associating it with the society in which we’re all members, within our friends and family, the people who pay our salaries and eat and drink with us. Without locating it as an elemental human problem that we all must guard against in ourselves and others.

In that way, we avoid many of the hard but important questions not only about our selves and our true willingness to protest evil (would people here quit their jobs if their boss used this language? What do people here do when they find their own biases popping up? Who here cured themselves of an adolescent prejudice and how), but about how to go about changing Duran or how to use this incident to enact effective change for the community.

Instead, we look to the state, in this case the Red Sox, to handle and express our outrage. We observe as justice is done and then wash our hands of the issue days later. While homophobia remains as big a problem as before, it subsides from most of our lives. Duran is jailed, not rehabilitated. And no real change occurs within the individual or mass.

That’s not to say the suspension isn’t warranted. It’s necessary the way a jail sentence is necessary. To support the victims, to deter future offenders, to impose society’s judgment and standards.

I hope this doesn’t come across as lecturing or dismissive of the conversation here, which is also interesting and edifying. I’ve just been enthralled with this book all week, and feel some of the theoretical principles are interestingly applied and Illuminating here.
 

Sandy Leon Trotsky

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Not directed at you, but there's part of the problem in how many of us view these things. In one breath we should assume nothing about these guys and in the next we should assume there all assholes.
My 80’s HS experience definitely had its cliques. I had a foot in jock world and had friends in there that were super great, nice smart and considerate but could turn into a bully-group mentality on a dime.
And their bullying was mostly reserved for the creative types that were populated by gay boys and girls- my crew. HS just pushes people into cliques and demands they behave in certain prescribed ways. As individuals outside those groups people become different. As far as I can tell it’s still like this.
 

Marciano490

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As a suggestion, so I’m not just theorizing, because so many people were upset by Duran’s slur, would people be interested in setting up a GoFundMe for say The Trevor Project, which provides counseling for suicidal LGBTQ+ youth?

It’s more a practical exercise than a psychic one, but let’s make good things come out of bad things. At least it’s something.
 

Mantush

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This is a false equivalency. These things are not the same, and shouldn't be treated the same.
Yes, they are the same. It's your opinion that they shouldn't be treated the same, but somebody's world views demanding strict consistency with genetic reality and someone else's demand that people refer to them in a specific way are absolutely the same thing. They both involve imposing specific perspectives on another person - something none of us have a right to do.

Umm no, he and others use the word because they find it to be a derogatory and degrading term. The idea that this is totally unrelated to how he feels about LGBTQ people, or at the very least how he very obviously feels free to speak about them, is ridiculous.

Beyond embarrassing you can't distinguish between being angered at the use of someone's preferred pronouns and being angered by the use of a derogatory slur.
Ever seen South Park? They literally did a whole episode on this. He's not using the f slur in a context that's offensive to the LGBTQ community. That's why I'm not offended.

A truly breathtaking dismissal of the post you responded to.

He aggressively used a word that means gay as an insult. Is it okay to imply that gay = bad? Seems pretty simple. Though I admit I remember a time when I didn't see that. Hopefully you, Jarren Duran, and others can learn from this.

Many members of this board have been hurt and marginalized by such language for most of their lives. Telling them effectively that they should lighten up is, at best, unhelpful imho.

EDIT: my apologies, I just saw your post in the poll on Duran thread. I guess you certainly don't need me to educate you on any of this or tell you what other people have gone through. Your take seems unique though and while I'm glad you weren't bothered, it does still seem like you're being overly dismissive of folks who didn't react the same way.
He's not implying that being gay is bad! People are reading intent into his words that just isn't there. The person was being annoying! This literally how people use the word now, especially in online gaming communities. Whether that's right, I don't know, but that's the obvious context and why I'm not offended. He didn't use the word as an attack against the LGBTQ community. He used it as an attack against one specific annoying person.

I've been on the receiving end of this word more times than I can imagine, as have you, I'm sure, and I'm interpreting your post as weariness from hearing it your entire life. I've had to perform emotional labor to remove that word from friends' vocabularies, and it worked. We suffer together.

But the word in question is now a third rail. It wasn't when I was growing up, and probably not for you, either. Language changes, evolves, and mutated.

What we're seeing here is a reaction to (condemnation of?) language leading directly to systemic and institutional hatred.

"Not everything is about you," yes, but you're seeing reactions of "this isn't right," people communicating that it's far preferable to intentionally treat people with kindness, dignity, and respect.

When we encounter regressive speech, we try to make sense of it, and that's what's happening here.
I was bullied relentlessly in school. I even attempted suicide. I was called every name under the sun, including the f slur. Being called the f slur would upset me because I hated that I was gay. It had nothing to do with anything, or anyone, else. It was all internalized self-hate. That same self-hate would have been there regardless of being called the f slur. The same self-hate was present when I was bullied for being poor and having brown skin (I’m mixed race).

But there’s a difference between Billy Woods calling me the f slur and Jaren Duran calling an annoying, heckling fan the f slur. Duran had no way of knowing the fan is gay. He knew that he was being annoying, so he used a word that’s used by gamers when people are annoying. The only inference I can draw from someone my age, like Duran, choosing to use the f slur over asshole or some other epithet is that he probably spends too much time in Call of Duty lobbies.

I'd be interested in hearing what he had to say but don't have a subscription. Can you paraphrase? Thank you!
Here's the opening few lines:
The LGBTQ+ community has no better ally in Major League Baseball than Liam Hendriks.
He supports Jarren Duran.
The Red Sox relief pitcher doesn’t believe his teammate acted in a hateful manner when he shouted a homophobic slur at a heckling fan on Sunday.
“This is what happens in anger,” Hendriks told the Globe. “But I know Jarren. I’ve had conversations with him plenty of times about the LGBT community and he’s been nothing but supportive.
“I know the word that came out was derogatory but it had nothing to do with that community, had nothing to do with trying to put someone down who’s in that community. I know where his heart’s at and that’s something that I value more than anything.”
... so the paraphrase is everything I've been saying :)
 

donutogre

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This probably gets into the politics board area... but this post doesn't deserve the hate it is getting. The right is triggered by pro-noun usage. The left is triggered by words without context. Outrage politics is childish and tiring. Not everything is about you. The sooner everyone realizes that the better off we'll all be.
OK, fine, let’s get into it. Why don’t you define what you mean by “outrage politics?” You mentioned it when quoting @Nacl, who said: “I wish people would stop letting words and ideas have so much power over them.“

I assume this means that “outrage politics” is someone like me, a white, cisgender man, getting upset about another white, cisgender man using a slur in anger? Like I’m trying to earn credibility by being outraged by a perceived slight, and thus insincere about those feelings?
 

timelysarcasm

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The only thing more annoying than a player on my favorite baseball team using a homophobic slur is the *queer* people rushing in to defend him and its usage because "people use it to replace stupid/annoying/f-you." Or more hilariously, referencing South Park, a show created by two currently middle aged white guys (funny, but they are not the spokespeople for what should be the position of gay people on the use of that word). I'm so sick of reading these takes from "friendly neighborhood gays" who think the word means nothing when used in anger and obviously to degrade and insult.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ecUdWGCcd74


The word doesn't exist in a vacuum. "He's not using the f slur in a context that's offensive to the LGBTQ community" - please don't speak for all of us. Some of us (mixed race too!) find it offensive when it's used to be derogatory - and no 27-year-old in America doesn't know that you can't use that word at work, on TV, or to strangers in a public place. The fact that he went right to it indicates he uses it regularly, actually, and the excuses for it are getting tired.

And when you do some reading on the subject and what the history of the word and what it means to gay people who broke a lot of barriers, it's much easier to bypass the South Park analysis and understand why it's not okay.
 

Two Youks

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While Duran didn't specifically target the LGBTQ community, its use as an insult 100% means that being gay is bad. If it didn't, it wouldn't be considered a slur. That's just basic language comprehension.

Also, I'm 44 years old and I've been a gamer almost my entire life. Online gaming culture is toxic, and in no way justifies or excuses the use of a slur. "Everyone online says it!" So what? Everyone knows that word - in the real world - is taboo. Idiots use it online because they think they're being some combination of cool, edgy, and funny.

I'm not a member of the LGBTQ community, but I was born with a form of Muscular Dystrophy (Arthrogrypoisis Multiplex Congenita). And this situation makes me think of growing up in NH from the 1980s until pretty recently when the r-word was used as a way to say someone or something was dumb. "Oh, they don't mean disabled people specifically!" Really? So why use that specific word? Same energy here, IMO.
 

Mantush

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The only thing more annoying than a player on my favorite baseball team using a homophobic slur is the *queer* people rushing in to defend him and its usage because "people use it to replace stupid/annoying/f-you." Or more hilariously, referencing South Park, a show created by two currently middle aged white guys (funny, but they are not the spokespeople for what should be the position of gay people on the use of that word). I'm so sick of reading these takes from "friendly neighborhood gays" who think the word means nothing when used in anger and obviously to degrade and insult.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ecUdWGCcd74


The word doesn't exist in a vacuum. "He's not using the f slur in a context that's offensive to the LGBTQ community" - please don't speak for all of us. Some of us (mixed race too!) find it offensive when it's used to be derogatory - and no 27-year-old in America doesn't know that you can't use that word at work, on TV, or to strangers in a public place. The fact that he went right to it indicates he uses it regularly, actually, and the excuses for it are getting tired.

And when you do some reading on the subject and what the history of the word and what it means to gay people who broke a lot of barriers, it's much easier to bypass the South Park analysis and understand why it's not okay.
Cool. Put me on ignore. You have that option.

Signed,

The Friendly Neighborhood Gay

OK, fine, let’s get into it. Why don’t you define what you mean by “outrage politics?” You mentioned it when quoting @Nacl, who said: “I wish people would stop letting words and ideas have so much power over them.“

I assume this means that “outrage politics” is someone like me, a white, cisgender man, getting upset about another white, cisgender man using a slur in anger? Like I’m trying to earn credibility by being outraged by a perceived slight, and thus insincere about those feelings?
You can be sincere about your feelings. I think some people are overreacting. Maybe you would have preferred I said identity politics? I mean, we are literally arguing over the word being "oppressive" and "hateful" because it's historically been used against gay men, and that somehow a professional athlete using it in a completely different context is going to set society back and must be punished severely with everything from public shaming to exclusion being suggested.

I have two whole months dedicated to my sexuality - one for being proud of it and another for its history. There's multiple calendared days and weeks for it. Duran using the f slur isn't going to change that. The fact that I have to preface my views - that what Duran did isn't abhorrent! - with my sexuality is laughable. And I have to do so or else I'll be accused of being a bigot. and looks like that attempt was only moderately successful, given that I'm a "friendly neighborhood gay," whatever that means.
 

HfxBob

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While Duran didn't specifically target the LGBTQ community, its use as an insult 100% means that being gay is bad. If it didn't, it wouldn't be considered a slur. That's just basic language comprehension.
I perfectly understand the logic you're using there, but I think it's a gross oversimplification.

If your logic is correct, we should be able to apply it across the board to other words frequently used as insults.

One insult word that gets used a lot when someone fails or does something stupid is to call them a "clown". Does this mean that all clowns are perceived as stupid? Well, that doesn't make much sense, because we know that in general, clowns are just regular people wearing costumes to entertain and/or make a few bucks. Isn't it more the case that the word has simply evolved into a popular insult?

Then there's "you suck." We could really have a long discussion about this one. In fact it's been discussed already on this thread, and there doesn't seem to be any consensus on what the "suck" part actually implies. Does it refer to oral sex, and if so, does it only refer to homosexual oral sex? If it only refers to homosexual sex, where's the outrage about "Yankees suck" chants?

The problem is that language, especially in colloquial forms, doesn't necessarily evolve in a logical manner.
 

Montana Fan

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OK, fine, let’s get into it. Why don’t you define what you mean by “outrage politics?” You mentioned it when quoting @Nacl, who said: “I wish people would stop letting words and ideas have so much power over them.“

I assume this means that “outrage politics” is someone like me, a white, cisgender man, getting upset about another white, cisgender man using a slur in anger? Like I’m trying to earn credibility by being outraged by a perceived slight, and thus insincere about those feelings?
My definition of Outrage Politics is someone who is perpetually outraged. On a daily basis they share or tell you about the outrageous thing that someone on the other team has done. Everything that’s being done by the other…sux and is going to ruin the country. And believe me, I hear it from both sides. Recently came back from the best week of the summer, 8 days with no cell or internet service.
 

The Mort Report

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I won't speak for anyone, but some of you who think it shouldn't be a big deal that honestly believe that, whether you are in the LGBTQ+ community or not, is probably you are comfortable in your own skin so it doesn't bother you. I work in the restaurant industry in Boston, and as a flexibly straight white dude I'm constantly in the minority and I love it since I get exposed to all types. However, even in an industry in a place that should be a safer space than most, I've watched many people struggle with it. Just one example, a friend who is gay served at my last spot and he was one of the happiest, nicest people I've met in my life, very comfortable in his skin around us, but whenever he went home he'd have to hide his true self, act straight for the family. How do you think he'd feel if a family member said it's not a harmful word while he has to hide himself? I know many people that struggle along those lines.

Then even the bigger picture, my sister and her partner have two kids, each carried one. They are well off, both work in jobs that require travel. They are completely comfortable here in the Boston area, but now are looking into adopting the child they didn't carry because if something happens when they travel some states might not recognize their marriage down the line with the way some are trending.

He may have not meant it to be harmful(up for debate), but as the comments section on the Athletic article shows, it allows people to be awful instead of moving towards a place where my friend can be himself with his family and my sister isn't scared about having her family pulled apart
 

simplicio

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I perfectly understand the logic you're using there, but I think it's a gross oversimplification.

If your logic is correct, we should be able to apply it across the board to other words frequently used as insults.

One insult word that gets used a lot when someone fails or does something stupid is to call them a "clown". Does this mean that all clowns are perceived as stupid? Well, that doesn't make much sense, because we know that in general, clowns are just regular people wearing costumes to entertain and/or make a few bucks. Isn't it more the case that the word has simply evolved into a popular insult?

Then there's "you suck." We could really have a long discussion about this one. In fact it's been discussed already on this thread, and there doesn't seem to be any consensus on what the "suck" part actually implies. Does it refer to oral sex, and if so, does it only refer to homosexual oral sex? If it only refers to homosexual sex, where's the outrage about "Yankees suck" chants?

The problem is that language, especially in colloquial forms, doesn't necessarily evolve in a logical manner.
Clowning is a career choice, not an innate part of someone's identity. Please do better than that.
 

EdRalphRomero

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One insult word that gets used a lot when someone fails or does something stupid is to call them a "clown". Does this mean that all clowns are perceived as stupid? Well, that doesn't make much sense, because we know that in general, clowns are just regular people wearing costumes to entertain and/or make a few bucks. Isn't it more the case that the word has simply evolved into a popular insult?
“Clown” has been used since the 16th century to refer to an unsophisticated rube from the country/rural areas.. A country bumpkin. See, for example, all the Shakespeare plays set in variations of the forest of Arden. Our modern insult derives directly from that usage.
 

Scriblerus

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Clowning is a career choice, not an innate part of someone's identity. Please do better than that.
Okay, what about the pervasive use of “insane” and “crazy” in the vernacular? My extended family has a history of mental illness, and hearing people talk about every day events as crazy or insane rubs in the wrong way, but we all recognize that those words are used to mean something other than their actual clinical definitions. Mental illness has been a subject of discrimination and ridicule for centuries, but very few people consider that when they talk about their crazy day at work or an insane co-worker/ex-boyfriend, girlfriend, husband, wife.

I don’t see any evidence that Duran has a history of homophobia or discrimination, just as I don’t believe that people who use crazy and insane all the time are discriminating against people with mental illness. If that proves false, the Duran should be held accountable.
 

GB5

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Aug 26, 2013
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As I posted earlier and now it is mostly upon us, do the Sox play him tomorrow night and subject him to the home crowd? And if they do play him, when he comes to bat leading off the bottom of the 1st, what kind of response does he get? Mostly heavy booing, light booing? Indifference? Something different?
 

YTF

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As I posted earlier and now it is mostly upon us, do the Sox play him tomorrow night and subject him to the home crowd? And if they do play him, when he comes to bat leading off the bottom of the 1st, what kind of response does he get? Mostly heavy booing, light booing? Indifference? Something different?
My best guess is that unless there is some further internal issue between Duran and the team there will be a discussion about this and that Duran is included in that decision. I'm not sure that "subjecting him to the home crowd" will be any worse than what he's going to see on the road. I think the Fenway reaction in his first AB might be a bit mixed, but mostly quiet. Perhaps silence is the route I might go if I were there. Just as a side thought, there will be a certain vibe around the park tonight with it being day two of the Jimmy Fund Telethon. I wonder if/how that affects the crowd tonight.
 

donutogre

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You can be sincere about your feelings. I think some people are overreacting. Maybe you would have preferred I said identity politics? I mean, we are literally arguing over the word being "oppressive" and "hateful" because it's historically been used against gay men, and that somehow a professional athlete using it in a completely different context is going to set society back and must be punished severely with everything from public shaming to exclusion being suggested.

I have two whole months dedicated to my sexuality - one for being proud of it and another for its history. There's multiple calendared days and weeks for it. Duran using the f slur isn't going to change that. The fact that I have to preface my views - that what Duran did isn't abhorrent! - with my sexuality is laughable. And I have to do so or else I'll be accused of being a bigot. and looks like that attempt was only moderately successful, given that I'm a "friendly neighborhood gay," whatever that means.
I truly don’t want to make this thread about my feelings as compared to yours, so I’ll stop after this one :)

1) I am sincerely very happy that you’re not offended by these types of things. There’s definitely something to be said for sapping words of their power. Easier said than done, and some stuff is irredeemable, but still — that’s a good thing for you.

2) Despite the fact that it doesn’t bother you and you think that “what Duran did isn’t abhorrent,” is it really hard for you to admit that LOTS OF OTHER PEOPLE might feel completely differently? That’s not to say that your viewpoint is wrong, but many people on this board (whether they identify as LQBTQ+ or not) are offended by it. The whole vibe you’re giving off is basically “get over it, it’s not a big deal,” and I don’t think it’s fair to be that dismissive of peoples’ concerns. Just my opinion, though.

3) When it comes to the false equivalency — what you said was “The right is triggered by pro-noun usage. The left is triggered by words without context.” I truly don’t know how you can say those things are the same. The right has no fucking right to be triggered by pronoun usage, as it in no fucking way affects them day-to-day. It’s a basic matter of respect, calling someone by the names and pronouns they choose.

Yes, the left can be triggered by words and jump on to something like this Duran incident — but that’s all coming from a place of recognizing that the word F****t has been historically used to make gay people feel less than because of their identity. That’s just a fact. And while no, I don’t believe that Duran was literally saying that heckler is gay and that he’s bad because he’s gay, it’s an insult used to insinuate that being gay is undesirable. (I know I don’t have to explain this to you, I’m just walking through my thoughts FWIW.) Given the context of what that word means and how it is used I don’t think it’s fair to dismiss other peoples’ concerns about Duran.

Phew, OK, I’m done.
 

donutogre

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My definition of Outrage Politics is someone who is perpetually outraged. On a daily basis they share or tell you about the outrageous thing that someone on the other team has done. Everything that’s being done by the other…sux and is going to ruin the country. And believe me, I hear it from both sides. Recently came back from the best week of the summer, 8 days with no cell or internet service.
So, so jealous.
 

blueline

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Nov 23, 2012
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Ever seen South Park? They literally did a whole episode on this. He's not using the f slur in a context that's offensive to the LGBTQ community. That's why I'm not offended.
It doesn't matter if it wasn't directed at a LGBTQ person or he wasn't using it in the proper context. It's inappropriate to use a slur.

Yes, they are the same. It's your opinion that they shouldn't be treated the same, but somebody's world views demanding strict consistency with genetic reality and someone else's demand that people refer to them in a specific way are absolutely the same thing. They both involve imposing specific perspectives on another person - something none of us have a right to do.
This is mindless contrarianism and obtuseness masking as intelligence--not that I would expect anything less from someone who's world view is shaped by episodes of South Park. Asking to be referred to with the correct pronoun is basic decency, while using derogatory slurs is the opposite.
 

ookami7m

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Okay, what about the pervasive use of “insane” and “crazy” in the vernacular? My extended family has a history of mental illness, and hearing people talk about every day events as crazy or insane rubs in the wrong way, but we all recognize that those words are used to mean something other than their actual clinical definitions. Mental illness has been a subject of discrimination and ridicule for centuries, but very few people consider that when they talk about their crazy day at work or an insane co-worker/ex-boyfriend, girlfriend, husband, wife.

I don’t see any evidence that Duran has a history of homophobia or discrimination, just as I don’t believe that people who use crazy and insane all the time are discriminating against people with mental illness. If that proves false, the Duran should be held accountable.
So here's the thing, "insane" and "crazy" are completely benign in 99% of their uses in a very different way than the F-slur we are talking about. They are generalizations as opposed to specific issues.

Where I have seen (and where I personally) offense taken is when someone offhand references something like "I'm so bi-polar today" or "I am just OCD about that" - When you are trivializing specific diagnoses (and ones that I personally deal with on a day to day basis) that is where the issue comes in. Neither of which has the years of stigma and backlash that the F-slur or racially based slurs have, but are hurtful nonetheless - regardless of intent.

At the end of the day I believe that whether he said it at a queer person or not doesn't matter - the word itself has no usage that could be construed as positive and is only used as a way to mark someone or something as "lesser than". People can take their level of outrage/frustration/pain from there.

This thread seems to have run itself into a loop now so I'm done posting on it, thank you to all of our members of the Alphabet Mafia that have shared their views and experiences on this - a reminder of the diverse diaspora of Sox fans here.

<literally as I post this I have to get on to my co-worker for saying "this process is so gay" - we have a long way to go>
 

Daniel_Son

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Okay, what about the pervasive use of “insane” and “crazy” in the vernacular? My extended family has a history of mental illness, and hearing people talk about every day events as crazy or insane rubs in the wrong way, but we all recognize that those words are used to mean something other than their actual clinical definitions. Mental illness has been a subject of discrimination and ridicule for centuries, but very few people consider that when they talk about their crazy day at work or an insane co-worker/ex-boyfriend, girlfriend, husband, wife.
Not sure if you're being flippant, but we had an HR training a couple months ago that talked about exactly this, among other words and phrases in our day-to-day vernacular that could be harmful or hurtful.

It basically boiled down to "be aware that etymology can be complex and it's always good to listen to those who may find words hurtful." I have no problem trying not to use "crazy" or "insane" if it makes someone's life a little easier, especially if that person is struggling with mental health issues.
 

Scriblerus

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Not sure if you're being flippant, but we had an HR training a couple months ago that talked about exactly this, among other words and phrases in our day-to-day vernacular that could be harmful or hurtful.

It basically boiled down to "be aware that etymology can be complex and it's always good to listen to those who may find words hurtful." I have no problem trying not to use "crazy" or "insane" if it makes someone's life a little easier, especially if that person is struggling with mental health issues.
I wasn’t being flippant, and it’s encouraging that HR departments are bringing awareness to how we use language in the workplace.