ECF Game 3--MARCUS

Deathofthebambino

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Dragic was -29. The next closest Miami players was Kelly O. at -10. Butler was there only other starter in the negative at -7. Dragic was finally terrible.
 

luckiestman

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Dragic was -29. The next closest Miami players was Kelly O. at -10. Butler was there only other starter in the negative at -7. Dragic was finally terrible.
What’s up with that? He was +13 and +10 in games 1 & 2.

That’s a weird stat
 

BaseballJones

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The Brown elbow at the end was called correctly by rule. But the rule is dumb. The defender literally pressed his body right into Brown and had his leg between Brown's, and Brown was trying to just swing the ball from side to side and square up. The defender has to give the offensive player SOME space.
 

lars10

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Do timeouts actually stop runs? Curious if there's data for that
I think Brad has actually talked about that the data has shown that it doesn’t.. which is why he likes his team to figure things out.. I think he’s such a good play caller, usually, out of timeouts that it would make sense to call more just to put in a play.. but he obv doesn’t seem to think so.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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I had forgotten how big he plays on defense. Such a huge difference for the Cs.
Yeah, Cs looked like a totally different team on defense when Gordo came in. Having another guy who can switch onto everyone on the Heat team really helps solidify the scheme.
The game was in danger on the Jaylen flagrant. Duncan didn't hit both of his shots and Celts regained composure. But that was not a good situation.
Also, as JVG said, the lengthy review process pretty much acted like a time-out. Settled Cs down and maybe iced Robinson.

With Gordo playing, it looks like Cs have a lot more answers for MIA. I am optimistic.
 

PedroKsBambino

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The Brown elbow at the end was called correctly by rule. But the rule is dumb. The defender literally pressed his body right into Brown and had his leg between Brown's, and Brown was trying to just swing the ball from side to side and square up. The defender has to give the offensive player SOME space.
The leg contacted Brown before elbow hit so technically it was a defensive foul.

They don’t generally call that little contact, but to your point perhaps that has to be reviewable as well
 

Deathofthebambino

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I think Brad has actually talked about that the data has shown that it doesn’t.. which is why he likes his team to figure things out.. I think he’s such a good play caller, usually, out of timeouts that it would make sense to call more just to put in a play.. but he obv doesn’t seem to think so.
So by that logic, other than an injury, why ever use a timeout?

I'd love to see whatever data they are talking about because if that's accurate, then every coach from Red Auerbach to Pat Riley to Phil Jackson to Coach K to Dean Smith has been apparently doing it wrong. Thank God Brad figured it out. Maybe he can find data to show that third quarters don't matter too.
 

Arroyo Con Frijoles

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I was hoping Jaylen would get credit for missing him with the lead elbow. The NBA rulebook is so weird sometimes, what contact is "necessary" in a foul situation anyway?
 

bigq

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I’m pretty happy about this win and will now proceed to smoke a joint and watch highlights of 80s Celtics playoff basketball.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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I think Brad has actually talked about that the data has shown that it doesn’t.. which is why he likes his team to figure things out.. I think he’s such a good play caller, usually, out of timeouts that it would make sense to call more just to put in a play.. but he obv doesn’t seem to think so.
Who are we going to trust? A coach, who was hired by someone who hasn't played basketball in 30 years or our own fellow basement dwellers? We don't need no fancy numbers or book learning to know that Stevens cost them the game.
 

DeadlySplitter

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The flagrant against Brown at the end should lead to an inquiry. How is an offensive player supposed to adjust to a defensive player who is allowed to be that close? Marcus got a flagrant in game two for jumping into the “landing zone” of the shooter. What is Brown supposed to do in that play? That’s the question I would ask the league. It was egregious and could have lost the game for the Celtics.
it seems like a lot of review this season (or at least in the bubble) has been any facial contact, trying (and often) to get a flagrant upgrade when it would never be called in real time. one part of replay I definitely hate.
 

Euclis20

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Dude needs to be attacked every single possession he is on the floor. Take turns switching every player into him. He is a mess on D. Make him unplayable.
I agree and it seemed like the Celtics were trying. Both Smart and Brown backed him down multiple times, and Kemba attacked him off the dribble every time they matched up. The problem is while he's their weak link, he's got decent size and isn't a complete liability. When they go zone, attacking one player just isn't a great way to get efficient looks.
 

lars10

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So by that logic, other than an injury, why ever use a timeout?

I'd love to see whatever data they are talking about because if that's accurate, then every coach from Red Auerbach to Pat Riley to Phil Jackson to Coach K to Dean Smith has been apparently doing it wrong. Thank God Brad figured it out. Maybe he can find data to show that third quarters don't matter too.
There are a to of reasons to call timeouts.. he just doesn’t typically do it to disrupt runs like other coaches do... or at least as often. And the analytics and coaching have changed a ton, as well as the game, since basically every coach you mentioned.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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I agree and it seemed like the Celtics were trying. Both Smart and Brown backed him down multiple times, and Kemba attacked him off the dribble every time they matched up. The problem is while he's their weak link, he's got decent size and isn't a complete liability. When they go zone, attacking one player just isn't a great way to get efficient looks.
Right after getting dragged here Robinson induced that foul on Brown. People are correct that he is a weak defender but he is certainly big and strong enough to slow people.
 

Three10toLeft

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So by that logic, other than an injury, why ever use a timeout?

I'd love to see whatever data they are talking about because if that's accurate, then every coach from Red Auerbach to Pat Riley to Phil Jackson to Coach K to Dean Smith has been apparently doing it wrong. Thank God Brad figured it out. Maybe he can find data to show that third quarters don't matter too.
Wasn’t Phil notorious for not calling time outs when his team was struggling and having a run put on them?
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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Does anyone have any articles or data that show Stevens has cost the Celtics with clock management?

Its possible but it really feels like a bunch of folks in their moms basements are just talking out of our collective asses. AKA a day ending in "y".
 

CoffeeNerdness

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wade boggs chicken dinner

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Maybe he just knocked knees with someone at some point, but he's clearly on film limping with some issue with his right leg.
Yeah, Spo could be spouting propaganda but I don't think I saw Butler taking any treatment like an ice wrap - you would think there would be something like that if he had any kind of injury.
 

bankshot1

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Does anyone have any articles or data that show Stevens has cost the Celtics with clock management?

Its possible but it really feels like a bunch of folks in their moms basements are just talking out of our collective asses. AKA a day ending in "y".
My mom's dead and i haven't squatted in her basement for about 50 years, but my observation from watching pro hoops for over 60 years mostly from my own place(s) is that Brad is on the slow side of using TO to stop opponent runs or slow building momentum. He likes his guys to figure it out on their own, which is an ok learning tool, but it seems that their learning process usually leads to 2-4 more bad possessions and lost points. And me (and others) getting pissed.

FWIW I was pretty good on calling TOs from mom's basement. Red and I were pretty much in sync.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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My mom's dead and i haven't squatted in her basement for about 50 years, but my observation from watching pro hoops for over 60 years mostly from my own place(s) is that Brad is on the slow side of using TO to stop opponent runs or slow building momentum. He likes his guys to figure it out on their own, which is an ok learning tool, but it seems that their learning process usually leads to 2-4 more bad possessions and lost points. And me (and others) getting pissed.

FWIW I was pretty good on calling TOs from mom's basement. Red and I were pretty much in sync.
That is entirely fair and you may well be correct.

But lars referenced to the fact that there is data around this (I would love to see it) and from what I understand, the Cs are following what the numbers show to be the best course.

I agree that it can be frustrating to watch but what if our collective perceptions are just flat out wrong?
 

riboflav

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The Brown elbow at the end was called correctly by rule. But the rule is dumb. The defender literally pressed his body right into Brown and had his leg between Brown's, and Brown was trying to just swing the ball from side to side and square up. The defender has to give the offensive player SOME space.
It's called a rip through which in all other cases is a foul on the defense esp. if there's a defender's hand there. But when it's a face, it's called offensive. So dumb.
 

scottyno

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One of the big subplots from tonight is Grant Williams and Tacko do a podcast together. Was I the only one unaware of this development?
They kind of have a podcast, they did 6 episodes all taped at once back in either March or April. It's more Jared Weiss of the Atlantic has a podcast and he has an extended sit down with both of them together about various things. It's on the "anything is poddable" feed. It's fine, but probably not as good as you're thinking it would be.
 

riboflav

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So by that logic, other than an injury, why ever use a timeout?

I'd love to see whatever data they are talking about because if that's accurate, then every coach from Red Auerbach to Pat Riley to Phil Jackson to Coach K to Dean Smith has been apparently doing it wrong. Thank God Brad figured it out. Maybe he can find data to show that third quarters don't matter too.
Yeah Red was famous for not calling timeouts. Always felt it was an advantage for the defense in end of game situations (obviously before a timeout moved you to the FC) and felt it was overrated as a momentum breaker. I think timeouts are more important in these situations for really inexperienced teams.
 

bankshot1

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DBMH-My guess is in the long-term Brad's TO stinginess and learning approach may benefit the team on how to play through rough patches, but we're looking at it on a short-term in game basis watching the Celts 14-point lead get cut to 4, when it was obvious 3 possessions ago, a TO was needed to reset the team.

As to TO data-and strategy, I'm sure somebody had crunched the data.

probably some guy in his mom's basement.
 

riboflav

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Heat reporter saying that Butler wasn't injured: On not playing Jimmy Butler near the end of the game, Erik Spoelstra said there was no injury. Spoelstra said: "We were just trying to get something quick right there at the end."

View: https://twitter.com/Anthony_Chiang/status/1307523665437831168
In fairness, getting something quick is generally not Butler's game especially from three. Though I could quibble and say Butler as an attack threat is valuable in those situations.
 

Buster Olney the Lonely

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They kind of have a podcast, they did 6 episodes all taped at once back in either March or April. It's more Jared Weiss of the Atlantic has a podcast and he has an extended sit down with both of them together about various things. It's on the "anything is poddable" feed. It's fine, but probably not as good as you're thinking it would be.
Ahh did a quick iTunes search and that one popped up but couldn’t figure out why. Thanks for the tip.
 

lars10

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Does anyone have any articles or data that show Stevens has cost the Celtics with clock management?

Its possible but it really feels like a bunch of folks in their moms basements are just talking out of our collective asses. AKA a day ending in "y".
At times in the game threads it feels like I’m watching the game with 25 felgers.. especially last game when people were predicting the series was over before the heat had even won... Boston has been ahead in each game and within 3 points late in both games. The heat have in no way controlled any of these games. The Celts could be the best team left if Kemba and Hayward play up to their best and Jaylen and Tatum play as they have been.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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At times in the game threads it feels like I’m watching the game with 25 felgers.. especially last game when people were predicting the series was over before the heat had even won... Boston has been ahead in each game and within 3 points late in both games. The heat have in no way controlled any of these games. The Celts could be the best team left if Kemba and Hayward play up to their best and Jaylen and Tatum play as they have been.
Legler was on ESPN earlier and noted that the Celtics have had the lead for 101 of the series 144 minutes. They are very much in this and have been all along. These teams are both very good and well coached by any measure so big leads will evaporate. Its really like watching a boxing match between two great tactical fighters.

The encouraging thing is the way the Celtics exerted their will in this game. It might be my favorite in the bubble given how well the entire small ball lineup played. Hayward's ability to provide those high quality minutes after missing a month is so unexpected.

Yeah, play like this and they can bang with anyone left.
 
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scottyno

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If they play the lakers in the finals Marcus Smart is totally going to guard Davis when they go with the small ball death lineup
 

mauf

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DBMH-My guess is in the long-term Brad's TO stinginess and learning approach may benefit the team on how to play through rough patches, but we're looking at it on a short-term in game basis watching the Celts 14-point lead get cut to 4, when it was obvious 3 possessions ago, a TO was needed to reset the team.

As to TO data-and strategy, I'm sure somebody had crunched the data.

probably some guy in his mom's basement.
If the data show no benefit to calling a timeout to stop a run, then it stands to reason it may actually be harmful to call timeout unless you’re going to make a substitution, or an adjustment, or you perceive your team is losing composure. (Because you’d expect a timeout that you call to fix something specific to be helpful at least some of the time.)
 

Jed Zeppelin

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The closest I’ve come to playing professional basketball in the conference finals for 30 minutes on a bad ankle is running a 10k about a month after a pretty bad sprain. Was about as sore as I’ve ever been in my life once I actually stopped moving and was the rest of the day.

The break here is a godsend, as keeping Gordon well enough to play far outweighs hypothetical game to game momentum. I suspect we may not see too much of him taking it to the rim against Bam and such, but if he is hitting some shots, navigating the perimeter and FT area, and playing capable D, it’s a world of difference. Super-glue guy role who can support any combination of other players on the roster.

And the stars just need to keep playing mean. Never leave attack mode.
 

joe dokes

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I think the elbow to the face on the rip is a cousin to the automatic high stick in hockey. The onus to control the stick/elbow and not hit the face is on the player with the weapon. Which is ok with me. Aside from the leg contact, robinson can certainly stick his face in there. It's like running over a smaller guy setting a pick. It's a foul, and if the little pick setter wants to keep getting blasted, gig bless him. If robinson wants to trade teeth for fouls.....

At the same time, the NBA needs something akin to the nhls follow-through exception.
 

DJnVa

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