ECF Game 4--STILL MARCUS

bankshot1

Member
SoSH Member
Feb 12, 2003
19,369
where I was last at
If the Celts were the better team, they wouldn't have played so poorly and lost huge leads and the games 1 and 2. Tonight was flukier and got killed by Herro's historic epic night, and their Achilles' heal, turnovers.

Maybe the need another year to grow up and toughen up.

The Heat have balls.

But the Celts are only mostly dead.

They could use Miracle Max off the bench in G5.
 

Silverdude2167

Member
SoSH Member
Oct 9, 2006
2,903
NYC
If the Celts were the better team, they wouldn't have played so poorly and lost huge leads and the games 1 and 2. Tonight was flukier and got killed by Herro's historic epic night, and their Achilles' heal, turnovers.

Maybe the need another year to grow up and toughen up.

The Heat have balls.

But the Celts are only mostly dead.

They could use Miracle Max off the bench in G5.
If the Celtics make one more shot and the heat miss one more shot in two of the games and the Celtics are ahead in the series 3-1.

Anyone who thinks that means the heat are the better team is insane.

The fact that they were up big in game 1 and 2 and lost because a rookie got hot in game 4 does mean they are the better team.

Execute 2% better for the rest of the series and go to the finals.
 

DeadlySplitter

Member
SoSH Member
Oct 20, 2015
22,231
I don't feel comfortable just chalking this one up to Herro getting hot. The fact is they ARE shooting really well overall, we aren't, and the turnover ratio has been very lopsided.

Herro / Robinson are very good at moving around a screen, being open for a split-second on that screen, and just stop & shoot. at some point it isn't just a fluke
 

bankshot1

Member
SoSH Member
Feb 12, 2003
19,369
where I was last at
If the Celtics make one more shot and the heat miss one more shot in two of the games and the Celtics are ahead in the series 3-1.

Anyone who thinks that means the heat are the better team is insane.

The fact that they were up big in game 1 and 2 and lost because a rookie got hot in game 4 does mean they are the better team.

Execute 2% better for the rest of the series and go to the finals.
The thing is the Heat have executed and the Celts have not.

And maybe if they had if would be 3-1 Celts.

But the Heat have been the better team so far.

But i do hold out hope the Celts can perform closer to their higher ceiling and IF they do they can win this series.
 

Light-Tower-Power

ask me about My Pillow
SoSH Member
Jun 14, 2013
10,419
Nashua, NH
I think their young core is good enough at this point. At some point I’d rather round out the bench with some veteran ring chasers vs. trying to get lucky with some mid to late first rounders.
 

Silverdude2167

Member
SoSH Member
Oct 9, 2006
2,903
NYC
The thing is the Heat have executed and the Celts have not.

And maybe if they had if would be 3-1 Celts.

But the Heat have been the better team so far.

But i do hold out hope the Celts can perform closer to their higher ceiling and IF they do they can win this series.
Maybe it's just the hockey and football fan in me but most non blowouts in the playoffs come down to luck. That is the only difference i have seen in this series and luck can turn very quickly.
 

bankshot1

Member
SoSH Member
Feb 12, 2003
19,369
where I was last at
Maybe it's just the hockey and football fan in me but most non blowouts in the playoffs come down to luck. That is the only difference i have seen in this series and luck can turn very quickly.
I've seen a lot of turnovers and lost opportunities in the 4th qtr. It might be luck, or preparation, or youth, or the pressure of the bubble life, I don't know. But IMO the Heat have played like a more poised team ready to win in crunch time so far
 

scottyno

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 7, 2008
6,944
I've seen a lot of turnovers and lost opportunities in the 4th qtr. It might be luck, or preparation, or youth, or the pressure of the bubble life, I don't know. But IMO the Heat have played like a more poised team ready to win in crunch time so far
Miami tried really really hard to blow the game tonight after they were up by 9 with a minute left.

They tried to blow an easy win late in game 2 too with a turnover and bad defensive breakdowns
 

scottyno

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 7, 2008
6,944
Perhaps the Celts might consider playing 48 minutes and they might not be faced with a deficit a little too large to overcome with last minute heroics.
Unlike the Heat who played 48 minutes in games 1-3 and didn't fall behind by a lot in those games at all
 

bankshot1

Member
SoSH Member
Feb 12, 2003
19,369
where I was last at
Unlike the Heat who played 48 minutes in games 1-3 and didn't fall behind by a lot in those games at all
The Heat have battled back from deficits in G1, 2 and 3 and came close to winning all 3 games. And they seem to me to be tougher and more poised than the Celts. Tonight the Celts played like shit in the first half played a decent 3rd qtr, and played a really sloppy turnover marred 4th qtr, when a decent perfromance could have overcome Herro's night. I'm a huge Celt's fans, but i'm not a fanboy. IMO the Heat have been the better more prepared and tougher team so far. I think the Celts have a higher ceiling but they are running out of room to prove it.

IMO the Heat have outplayed the Celts.
YMMV
 

teddykgb

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 16, 2005
7,698
Chelmsford, MA
We can’t win 3 straight because we don’t have the shooters to break this zone and we will inevitably have another rough patch where the shots don’t fall. Nurse discovered this and Spolestra refined it — we can’t fix it until the off-season at best and honestly it may not be fixable with this core. Horford was almost completely not missed but we could really use a big who could hit the 3 right now or a deadeye shooter we could work to free like they are doing for their two. Probably need both instead of the largely redundant Langford/Green/Semi
 

scottyno

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 7, 2008
6,944
We can’t win 3 straight because we don’t have the shooters to break this zone and we will inevitably have another rough patch where the shots don’t fall. Nurse discovered this and Spolestra refined it — we can’t fix it until the off-season at best and honestly it may not be fixable with this core.
With Hayward back they can put 4 guys on the court who all shot 38+% this year. Nurse didn't have to deal with that and Spo didn't either for the first 2 games. They broke the zone in the 2nd half because Hayward hit some shots and found other good shooters for wide open looks.
 

radsoxfan

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 9, 2009
9,308
We can’t win 3 straight because we don’t have the shooters to break this zone and we will inevitably have another rough patch where the shots don’t fall. Nurse discovered this and Spolestra refined it — we can’t fix it until the off-season at best and honestly it may not be fixable with this core. Horford was almost completely not missed but we could really use a big who could hit the 3 right now or a deadeye shooter we could work to free like they are doing for their two. Probably need both instead of the largely redundant Langford/Green/Semi
Not sure I really buy this. Overall the Celtics were middle of the pack, but the top players on the team have all shot well on 3s this year.

Tatum: 40%
Kemba: 38%
Jaylen: 38%
Hayward: 38%

Smart has been respectable at 35% given what else he brings to the table.

Honestly I thought end of the 3rd quarter and most of the 4th the Celtics picked apart the zone pretty well and got good shots. A 3-1 hole is a bad place to be, and the smart money is definitely on the Heat at this point. But I don't think this team isn't a good enough shooting team to beat a zone.
 

teddykgb

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 16, 2005
7,698
Chelmsford, MA
To me rates are rates and the Celtics are decent enough but not so solid that the zone is too risky. Is there a stat which quantifies streakiness?

either way, imo they only worked the zone well when they clearly decided to drive it without hesitation but for some reason we’re more tentative tonight. As long as Miami is comfortable risking the 3s which the Cs are working far too hard to get, they get to erase our mismatch advantages and hide their shooters defensively so that we can’t play them off the court. They also get two active defenders causing steals and turnovers making things difficult in the passing lanes. While I don’t think the Cs are bad three point shooters, we aren’t generating the inside and outside look qualityto make the zone a lost cause and now they can really play the percentages that another bad shooting half will bury us.
I also think the lack of range at the 5 is allowing Bam to stay central and make a lot of the opportunities more difficult. Not to go full Ben hogan but even Baynes would be a huge asset to force them to defend differently
 

Jed Zeppelin

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 23, 2008
39,357
Feels pretty bad to lose basically wire to wire despite outshooting, outrebounding, and outassisting your opponent.

Haven’t taken care of the ball all playoffs. 10 turnovers between 2 of your top 3 ballhandlers. Sucks to have all this talent and it ends up being a lack of composure that costs the whole damn thing.

I think they scratch out another win but would be surprised by more. Really deflating game despite bringing it close in the end. Will be extremely regrettable not to have beaten this team in this particular contending window while Kemba still has legs.

Look at the zone issues or Xs and Os all you want, but the reality is they don’t treasure their possessions, which is tough to overcome in the playoffs.
 

joe dokes

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 18, 2005
17,963
Perkins said something after the game that rang true to me. Miami can win even though they're not "playing well." The Celtics don't seem to be able to. I didn't stick around for his explanation.
 

NJ_Sox_Fan

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 2, 2006
6,320
NJ
Not an ideal spot to be in obviously. Although it is cliche, they just need to take it game by game now. Hopefully Friday they come out hot, and do not have the enormous let down 3rd quarter yet again.
 

Mueller's Twin Grannies

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 19, 2009
6,424
If if if if if if if if if if if if if if

That's all we have are ifs because the reality is this team has lost the games they've lost because they've played stupid basketball during stretches, including stretches where they were leading by double digits.

Take off the green-colored goggles. This team has shown us who they are time and time and time again. They're a team good enough to win if they don't play dumb and often do. But they're team that's not good enough to win when they do play dumb, which is why they've been losing some of these one- and two-possession games. There are no moral victories in this. You either get the job done or you don't. Three out of four games in this series, they've failed to get the job done. Last series, they were a phenomenal (non-credited) block away from being knocked out by the defending champs and only barely eked out that win. If the refs had blown a T on Stevens when his shoe sid a centimeter over the line the way Toronto fans were screaming about afterward, we're probably trying to convince ourselves that Hayward being out is why they lost that series and it'll be different next year, yadda yadda yadda.

If Glengarry Glen Ross was a metaphor for the world, this team would be perennially restricted from drinking the coffee.

it's great to be optimistic but even if they somehow rallied to win three straight, this team is going to get steamrolled by the LA LeBrons. The Heat deserve to go at this point because they clearly want it more. They might actually give the Lakers a run for their money before being knocked out in 5 or 6.
 

Humphrey

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 3, 2010
1,123
Brad isnt' getting fired. I'd be flabbergasted
He isn't getting fired for basketball decisions, I would agree w/you. The only way he's gone is if Ainge perceives that the nucleus of the team is tuning him out, which happens all the time in the NBA. No one's made a case that situation exists presently.
 

Humphrey

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 3, 2010
1,123
Not an ideal spot to be in obviously. Although it is cliche, they just need to take it game by game now. Hopefully Friday they come out hot, and do not have the enormous let down 3rd quarter yet again.
Actually, they won the third quarter last night, cut a 6 point deficit to 1. But they played so poorly the first 5-6 minutes of it that it felt like a loss (including a stretch where the Heat got 4 open three point looks on the same possession, followed by Crowder missing a layup; the lead could have been 17 at that point).
 

RGREELEY33

Potty Mouth
SoSH Member
Nov 28, 2005
4,403
Orange County, CA
Look, I have ranted as much as the next guy in here, but let’s not lose sight that our two star players that determine the outcome for us are 22 and 23.

Brown and Tatum just aren’t there yet to be able to handle playoff intensity/adversity, as we have seen multiple times in the last two series, and we obviously just can’t rely on Kemba/Smart to make up for it.

They will continue to make leaps going forward, and this will ultimately be a great learning process for them, and they are going to lead the Celtics to # 18, 19, and maybe 20 in the next decade. It just isn’t happening this year.
 

PedroKsBambino

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Apr 17, 2003
24,355
I think their young core is good enough at this point. At some point I’d rather round out the bench with some veteran ring chasers vs. trying to get lucky with some mid to late first rounders.
I agree----I think they'd benefit hugely from an Igoudala-type presence even if it is someone who doesn't play a big role. Kanter is a very different profile. They need someone with a ring or two in there. Worth the vet minimum slot.
 

CapeCodYaz

lurker
Sep 24, 2020
14
Agree they need a veteran presence and a backup center that can cover a Bam type center and ideally a backup
point guard. But they are still young but it seems at times they get lazy and fall in love with trying to match 3’s and they drive and kick out when they could have just kept going forward to the basket. I still think they have more talent than the Heat.
 

HowBoutDemSox

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 12, 2009
6,065
Agree they need a veteran presence and a backup center that can cover a Bam type center and ideally a backup
point guard. But they are still young but it seems at times they get lazy and fall in love with trying to match 3’s and they drive and kick out when they could have just kept going forward to the basket. I still think they have more talent than the Heat.
I’m hoping TimeLord can be the 5 that can matchup with Bam-type centers. He came in and really slowed the pick and roll lobs to Bam, though I haven’t seen a deep dive yet into how he defended Bam generally outside those plays.
 

Light-Tower-Power

ask me about My Pillow
SoSH Member
Jun 14, 2013
10,419
Nashua, NH
I’ve gone from pissed last night to just really bummed out today. Miami is a good team but they aren’t 3-1 better. This series should be 2-2 at the worst. As the days get shorter and we head into an uncertain fall the last thing I want is the Celtics off my TV screen. They’ve been such a welcome distraction. I want to watch them until the bubble bursts for good. A loss tomorrow would be such a downer. Blah.
 

Deathofthebambino

Drive Carefully
SoSH Member
Apr 12, 2005
33,283
I’m hoping TimeLord can be the 5 that can matchup with Bam-type centers. He came in and really slowed the pick and roll lobs to Bam, though I haven’t seen a deep dive yet into how he defended Bam generally outside those plays.
TimeLord was +10 last night in like 12 minutes. Theis was -16 in 30 minutes. I know that plus/minus has it's issues with a SSS, but the eye test certainly appeared that TL was doing a very good job on both ends of the floor. Then he got benched, never to be seen again.

Grant Williams should not be playing 1 minute in a game where Semi fucking Ojeleye is playing any minutes. And I don't understand the usage of Wanamaker right now, with Gordon back. If Kemba needs a rest, we have enough ball handlers with Gordon and Smart that we don't need Wanamaker taking those minutes. Get some size in there and make Bam work a little bit.

Theis has been awful. Plain and simple. I love the guy, but man, he's been bad so far in this series.

Anyone who thinks the C's are losing because Miami is making shots isn't paying attention. I posted the stats from game 2 and game 4 last night. The C's outshot Miami in both games and lost both games because they got their asses stomped in the turnover battle. You can't win game when you're taking 10-20 shots less than the other team.

They need to stop turning the ball over, get super aggressive pushing the ball up the court, and driving to the hoop. Period. That's it. Defensively, they've been fine. Kemba is going to lose his battles, but all in all, they are holding Miami to pretty bad shooting percentages and doing what they need to do on that end, except for Theis,......
 

NJ_Sox_Fan

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 2, 2006
6,320
NJ
Actually, they won the third quarter last night, cut a 6 point deficit to 1. But they played so poorly the first 5-6 minutes of it that it felt like a loss (including a stretch where the Heat got 4 open three point looks on the same possession, followed by Crowder missing a layup; the lead could have been 17 at that point).
Yes, last night. But they've lost it what, 9 of the last 11? And badly most of the time