FLASH POLL: Who should start on Sunday--Maye or Brissett?

[dynomite]

presumably less so since he will have had a full season of developing good habits in a controlled setting. Though I think the odds he sits the whole year are slim, he'll get some time no matter what, the question is when and how, and whether it is carefully planned or a kneejerk reaction

Exactly. Plus we went into this season with a terrible O line that has already suffered multiple devastating injuries. It's a worst case scenario.

By September 2025 one hopes and expects the Patriots will have spent the offseason and draft focusing on rebuilding the O line, including a Top 10/5 pick in the draft, and Maye will have a year of learning pro style offense and protection schemes under his belt.

Brissett. I see no reason to rush Maye into the starting lineup. He's super young, had a relatively small college experience, and this team isn't going anywhere. I'd much rather give him the full Mahomes/Love/Rodgers than rush him out to start for a bad team going nowhere just because...fans are impatient?
...
A modicum of patience is needed.

Agreed. Brissett's play has almost nothing to do with how I feel about Maye playing. The 2024 Patriots are bad. Making decisions based upon them being bad in the moment is bad process. I'm surprised no one has referenced Rick Pitino yet -- Tom Brady isn't walking through that door.

If Maye is ready and playing him would be good for his development -- based on what the coaches are seeing in practices/meetings/processing on the sideline -- fine. If not, Brissett is here for a reason, and it's not to win football games.

And as far as other players on the roster, this is where coaching comes in. They're professional athletes on a bottom 5 team. Mayo and the staff needs to get them ready to play no matter what. For vets, they need game tape for free agency. For rookies like Polk, they can develop chemistry with Maye in practice, in meetings, etc. And if any of them turn into locker room problems, they shouldn't be on a rebuilding team that needs to re-establish its identity and is not going to be successful this year no matter who is at QB.

 

[rodderick]

Exactly. Plus we went into this season with a terrible O line that has already suffered multiple devastating injuries. It's a worst case scenario.

By September 2025 one hopes and expects the Patriots will have spent the offseason and draft focusing on rebuilding the O line, including a Top 10/5 pick in the draft, and Maye will have a year of learning pro style offense and protection schemes under his belt.



Agreed. Brissett's play has almost nothing to do with how I feel about Maye playing. The 2024 Patriots are bad. Making decisions based upon them being bad in the moment is bad process. I'm surprised no one has referenced Rick Pitino yet -- Tom Brady isn't walking through that door.

If Maye is ready and playing him would be good for his development -- based on what the coaches are seeing in practices/meetings/processing on the sideline -- fine. If not, Brissett is here for a reason, and it's not to win football games.

And as far as other players on the roster, this is where coaching comes in. They're professional athletes on a bottom 5 team. Mayo and the staff needs to get them ready to play no matter what. For vets, they need game tape for free agency. For rookies like Polk, they can develop chemistry with Maye in practice, in meetings, etc. And if any of them turn into locker room problems, they shouldn't be on a rebuilding team that needs to re-establish its identity and is not going to be successful this year no matter who is at QB.

Not really, though. Backup QBs don't rep with starters in any meaningful way during the week. Which is yet another reason to play the kid and have him prepare as the starter. He'll learn and grow more in practice as well.

 

[Cellar-Door]

Not really, though. Backup QBs don't rep with starters in any meaningful way during the week. Which is yet another reason to play the kid and have him prepare as the starter. He'll learn and grow more in practice as well.

We've already heard directly from Mayo that he takes 30% or so of the snaps in practice, well above normal backups, they have a plan in place to develop him, he's not Jim Sorgi

 

[dynomite]

We've already heard directly from Mayo that he takes 30% or so of the snaps in practice, well above normal backups, they have a plan in place to develop him, he's not Jim Sorgi

Exactly, plus Brady and Mahomes and others were known to pull players aside and run extra plays after practice. There's a plan for this.

I think this long-form article about Mahomes as a rookie is interesting -- even years later Mahomes said he didn't think he would have been successful early in the year as a rookie backup... and this is Mahomes, who has a solid argument as the greatest QB not named Tom Brady of all time. https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/38334676/untold-stories-patrick-mahomes-rookie-season

"I think I would have had some success," Mahomes said recently. "I don't think it would have happened as fast. I think there would have been a lot more mistakes, especially early in my career, early in my season. I think by the end of the year I could have figured some stuff out and made some stuff happen. I don't know if it would have been a Super Bowl run or anything like that but I think I hopefully could have gotten us into the playoffs.

"Alex was way ahead of me at that point where he could run the offense the right way. He was playing so [well] that there was never a thought that I should be playing. I wasn't supposed to be playing. I was supposed to be learning."

 

[Bowser]

While I don't totally disagree if Maye is ready.....

This is looking at things from the wrong lens.... Maye matters, ridicule does not matter, honestly the coaches don't matter, 90% of the players don't matter. If they think Maye will be a better QB for not playing this week he shouldn't play. Making the decision because the team is bad is the exact kind of ass covering, sugar fix mistakes that badly run franchises do to continue being bad.

Should have clarified that I'd start Maye if he's ready. I think he's ready enough...

There are a half dozen externalities that say we should start him (e.g., PR). But sure, these don't matter much. My main concern is Lazar's comment that the locker room is "teetering on mutiny" because Jacoby continues to start. I can see why. Maye has the skill set to do more with less, and he's more mobile -- an actual running threat -- which is key behind this godawful line and with WRs who don't separate consistently.

I doubt anyone on this board really thinks Jacoby is more likely to produce a W. He's failed to meet very low expectations, and this offense is laughably easy to defend. It can't sustain drives and can't score. The wheels are falling off. Put Maye in and give him a chance to rise to the occasion. It can happen.

A rebuild is a fragile thing, and it's deadly to allow players to think the franchise doesn't want to win now. Only a small handful of current players will be around when the ship gets righted. The rest are here to help rebuild the culture. We can't have them shitting on the coaching staff and each other in the middle of a rebuild.

 

[TomRicardo]

What reason is there to think next season won’t be similarly “toast”?

They’re likely going to be bad for a while and the OL isn’t going to be rebuilt in one off-season - especially with Wolf’s approach to roster construction

At some point, Maye is going to have to play on a crappy team.

If the OL isn't significantly better next season (to get to maybe just below average) Drake Maye is never going to reach the heights of Mac Jones in New England.

 

[jercra]

Exactly, plus Brady and Mahomes and others were known to pull players aside and run extra plays after practice. There's a plan for this.

I think this long-form article about Mahomes as a rookie is interesting -- even years later Mahomes said he didn't think he would have been successful early in the year as a rookie backup... and this is Mahomes, who has a solid argument as the greatest QB not named Tom Brady of all time. https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/38334676/untold-stories-patrick-mahomes-rookie-season

Isn't the last sentence there the key though? Is Brissett way ahead of Maye? Is he playing so well that Maye feels like he shouldn't be playing? I doubt either of those are true. I voted Maye.

It seems to me the reasons people keep bringing up to not play him are:

1. He could get hurt
   1. Well, he could always get hurt. I'm not sure anything predicts QB injuries, including bad OLs.
2. He could develop bad habits behind a terrible OL
   1. There is no way to know if he will or won't develop bad habits or what the cause of those bad habits are if they do develop. We also have no idea if/when they will have a competent enough OL that there's no risk of those bad habits developing.
3. He's just not ready/Could hurt his development
   1. If that's the case, then the Pats coaching staff should keep him from playing. But, if that's the case, he probably shouldn't be the backup either, because if Brissett gets hurt, he'll be forced to play and that will hurt his development.

To me, it sure would be nice to know if he's more Mahomes than Mac Jones while they're still bad enough to have another swipe at a high draft position.

 

[Eddie Jurak]

So, ever since someone questioned how successful QB job sharing arrangements could be, since they are not the norm, I have been racking my brain trying to remember any examples.

And I finally thought of one: the 1986 Philidelphia Eagles. Buddy Ryan's first year as an NFL head coach. The Eagles' starting quarterback was 35 year old Ron Jaworski. The backup was 23 year old second year QB Randall Cunningham.

And Ryan did something unconventional with his QBs: he started Jaworski, but he made Cunninghma his "3rd and long" QB. That wasn't Cunninghma's only usage - he also started 5 of the last 6 games and I think came on in a relief role in another two of them. In the 8 games as exclusively a third and long guy, he completed 10-23 passes for 159 yards, 1 TD, 2 INT. And he was sacked 17 times! And he had 14 runs for 149 yards. Ryan must have tried it because Cunningham was a running threat. Cunningham's sack percentage in the 3rd down role was 42.5%.

Overall for the season, Cunningham went 1-3-1 in his 5 starts, attempted 209 passes, completing 53.1%, averaged 6.7 yards per attemoted, and threw 8 TDs and 7 INT. And he was sacked an astonishing 72 times - a 25.6% sack percentage. By contrast, Jaworski had 245 attemots and was sacked only 22 times, for a percentage of "just" 8.2%. He also had 66 rushed for 540 yards and 5 TD.

Cunningham, of course, went on to have a long successful career. And that Eagles team must have had a shitty line.

Anyway, there's a role for Drake - designated 3rd and long guy! Plus side: he wouldn't have to have full command of the whole offense, and he has the ability to make plays Brissett simply can't. Downside: he's going to be sacked a whole hell of a lot.

 

[Beomoose]

If Brisset had shown us anything it would be easy to say "stick with the plan, don't start Maye until he and the team are ready." And going into this season I was really hoping we'd have seen something from Jacoby. But we're getting nothing from him and it's reportedly souring the team along with the fanbase. If we want to do anything at all to demonstrate we're coming around to the right path, it feels like we gotta make the change and soon.

If we think we can limp through the season and bank the No1 pick without the team coming completely unglued.... I guess stick with him?

 

[BigSoxFan]

Let’s roll. This is the most boring team in professional sports. It won’t be pretty. It may even be ugly. But it’ll at least be interesting to watch. Brissett might be a good person but he’s a trash NFL QB and I don’t want to spend another second watching him suck.

 

[cornwalls@6]

Maye. Not because I think it will make a big difference in the teams record. But because I think it’s time to start to see what he is, to accelerate his development, and that of the receivers they drafted. Also, if this is to be an attractive destination for free agents again anytime soon, him looking like a legit, exciting young QB will have to be a big part of that, initially. Before, hopefully, the wins start to follow. The sooner we start to find out if that’s the case, the better. Lastly, unapologetically selfishly, it will give me a reason to remain interested in watching them this year. Rather than just enduring a 2-3 win grind with a well below average, short term veteran QB.

 

[SMU_Sox]

I'd like the option "whatever Wolf and Mayo think should happen." Because I'm guessing nobody wants to see Maye out on the field at this point more than Mayo and Wolf do, so if they don't play him they presumably have Reasons. They might be wrong, but they're the duo with the most information to work with right now.

This, + it's going to be Maye in the next 1-4 weeks most likely. I don't know exactly when but sometime in the near future. I don't think I can second guess or even first guess (is that a thing?) this situation because I don't nearly know enough to. I would lean starting Maye the second he is ready though. JB has been really bad

 

[Morgan's Magic Snowplow]

So, ever since someone questioned how successful QB job sharing arrangements could be, since they are not the norm, I have been racking my brain trying to remember any examples.

And I finally thought of one: the 1986 Philidelphia Eagles. Buddy Ryan's first year as an NFL head coach. The Eagles' starting quarterback was 35 year old Ron Jaworski. The backup was 23 year old second year QB Randall Cunningham.

And Ryan did something unconventional with his QBs: he started Jaworski, but he made Cunninghma his "3rd and long" QB. That wasn't Cunninghma's only usage - he also started 5 of the last 6 games and I think came on in a relief role in another two of them. In the 8 games as exclusively a third and long guy, he completed 10-23 passes for 159 yards, 1 TD, 2 INT. And he was sacked 17 times! And he had 14 runs for 149 yards. Ryan must have tried it because Cunningham was a running threat. Cunningham's sack percentage in the 3rd down role was 42.5%.

Overall for the season, Cunningham went 1-3-1 in his 5 starts, attempted 209 passes, completing 53.1%, averaged 6.7 yards per attemoted, and threw 8 TDs and 7 INT. And he was sacked an astonishing 72 times - a 25.6% sack percentage. By contrast, Jaworski had 245 attemots and was sacked only 22 times, for a percentage of "just" 8.2%. He also had 66 rushed for 540 yards and 5 TD.

Cunningham, of course, went on to have a long successful career. And that Eagles team must have had a shitty line.

Anyway, there's a role for Drake - designated 3rd and long guy! Plus side: he wouldn't have to have full command of the whole offense, and he has the ability to make plays Brissett simply can't. Downside: he's going to be sacked a whole hell of a lot.

Putting Maye into a limited subset of situations where he's most likely to get hammered and least likely to be successful seems like a suboptimal strategy of QB development.

 

[dynomite]

To me, it sure would be nice to know if he's more Mahomes than Mac Jones while they're still bad enough to have another swipe at a high draft position.

We're talking about this in a few threads, so not totally sure where to put this, but I'll respond here: I think this sentence sort of speaks to my concerns about this approach. It's hard to say simultaneously:

1) Throw the kid out there behind a devastated O line on a terrible team, let's start developing him for the future, while also

2) Give Maye a few games as a totally green rookie on a bottom 5 roster to decide whether he's a success or failure.

Obviously Mayo and Wolf are professionals, so their job is to evaluate players and project their future success even in imperfect situations. Fans want to see Maye in a game in part because we don't see him in practice -- we have no idea how he looks apart from a handful of series in preseason and in a blowout against the Jets. But Mayo and Wolf have a ton more information than we do.

And consider that Josh Allen -- our most common Maye comp -- completed just 52% of his passes as a rookie with a 10/12 TD/INT ratio and showed great running skills. Mac Jones, by contrast, had 3,800 yards and a 22/13 TD/INT ratio. Evaluation of rookie QBs is really difficult business unless they're a unicorn like Cam or Stroud and immediately succeed, versus Rodgers and Brady and Mahomes who had the benefit of a red shirt year.

To draw a comparison to a totally different sport that might be more hurtful than helpful, when Trevor Story and Grissom went down in April the Red Sox didn't grab Marcelo Mayer out of AA and rush him into the Red Sox lineup even when the backups were struggling -- because it didn't make sense for Mayer's long-term development. And the Red Sox actually had a chance to make the playoffs this year, while the only remaining question in this Patriots season is whether they end up with the #1 pick.

The decision about whether to start Maye to me is entirely about what's good for Maye's development, and to @SMU_Sox's point that's just not a question we know the answer to.

 

[DJnVa]

I voted Maye, but think it might be one more week.

I think the fact that it's in London has little to no bearing, despite a lot of talk about how it would be a weird week. Since Maye has never had a week to prepare as a starter, the London week won't be disrupting any new routine he's attempting to get used to because he's never been the starter. Giving him the weird week FIRST might not be a hindrance at all.

 

[dynomite]

I voted Maye, but think it might be one more week.

I think the fact that it's in London has little to no bearing, despite a lot of talk about how it would be a weird week. Since Maye has never had a week to prepare as a starter, the London week won't be disrupting any new routine he's attempting to get used to because he's never been the starter. Giving him the weird week FIRST might not be a hindrance at all.

I agree. I don't see why the location of the game would matter -- heck, if anything, his first start coming at a neutral site might be ideal. No home crowd to disappoint, no rabid road crowd rattling him, etc.

(Even though, again, I would still be totally fine if Maye doesn't play until December or next year)

 

[Eddie Jurak]

Putting Maye into a limited subset of situations where he's most likely to get hammered and least likely to be successful seems like a suboptimal strategy of QB development.

This is probably right. On the other hand, worked out OK for Cunningham.

 

[Morgan's Magic Snowplow]

This is probably right. On the other hand, worked out OK for Cunningham.

True enough. I loved watching him play growing up.

 

[clueandaprayer]

Brissett for just a little longer while we settle on an O line combination. But soon....

 

[NextBigThing8184]

If the OL isn't significantly better next season (to get to maybe just below average) Drake Maye is never going to reach the heights of Mac Jones in New England.

That’s unfortunate because I don’t expect the OL to be “significantly” better. Especially if Andrews retires. The chances of them finding 2-3 decent starters in one offseason, especially with this front office, seem exceptionally unlikely

 

[lexrageorge]

This is probably right. On the other hand, worked out OK for Cunningham.

Dan Reeves did similar with Michael Vick in Vick’s rookie year.

 

[SMU_Sox]

This is probably right. On the other hand, worked out OK for Cunningham.

True enough. I loved watching him play growing up.

Off-topic slightly but he is my favorite QB who I have mostly only seen in old games. Cunningham would have slayed in today's game. I could go down on memory lane about Cunningham anytime... what a baller.

I was also thinking about Maye and, unlike guys like Bryce Young or Kyler Murray, Maye is someone who would have been drafted highly in any era.

 

[dynomite]

That’s unfortunate because I don’t expect the OL to be “significantly” better. Especially if Andrews retires. The chances of them finding 2-3 decent starters in one offseason, especially with this front office, seem exceptionally unlikely

Is it really so unlikely that the 2025 line will be better? This is being discussed better in the offensive line thread, but...

This offseason you can see many of us expressing deep concern about the line in 2024 and expecting them to be bad, and that was before Andrews and Wallace went down and we knew Strange would miss the first half of the season.

By 2025 Training Camp the line could be:

LT: Top 5 draft pick
LG: Healthy Strange
C: Free agent
RG: Onwenu
RT: Wallace/draft pick/free agent signing

I'm comfortable saying that has at least has a plausible chance to be "significantly" better, yes. Not a top 5 unit, but being "significantly" better than what we have right now is a sadly low bar.

And re the front office, during Wolf's tenure here they have had decent O lines at times. WRs, on the other hand...

 

[Jimbodandy]

Is it really so unlikely that the 2025 line will be better? This is being discussed better in the offensive line thread, but...

This offseason you can see many of us expressing deep concern about the line in 2024 and expecting them to be bad, and that was before Andrews and Wallace went down and we knew Strange would miss the first half of the season.

By 2025 Training Camp the line could be:

LT: Top 5 draft pick
LG: Healthy Strange
C: Free agent
RG: Onwenu
RT: Wallace/draft pick/free agent signing

I'm comfortable saying that has at least has a plausible chance to be "significantly" better, yes. Not a top 5 unit, but being "significantly" better than what we have right now is a sadly low bar.

And re the front office, during Wolf's tenure here they have had decent O lines at times. WRs, on the other hand...

Exactly. Better free agent class. And a probable top 5 pick that can be leveraged to get a proper left tackle, whether picking there, trading down a bit, whatever. Having better FA options + not having to spend the most valuable asset (#3 pick) on a QB should lend to a better OL next year.

 

[NextBigThing8184]

Is it really so unlikely that the 2025 line will be better? This is being discussed better in the offensive line thread, but...

This offseason you can see many of us expressing deep concern about the line in 2024 and expecting them to be bad, and that was before Andrews and Wallace went down and we knew Strange would miss the first half of the season.

By 2025 Training Camp the line could be:

LT: Top 5 draft pick
LG: Healthy Strange
C: Free agent
RG: Onwenu
RT: Wallace/draft pick/free agent signing

I'm comfortable saying that has at least has a plausible chance to be "significantly" better, yes. Not a top 5 unit, but being "significantly" better than what we have right now is a sadly low bar.

And re the front office, during Wolf's tenure here they have had decent O lines at times. WRs, on the other hand...

Sure, there’s no guarantee Strange will be back at an above average level (which he’s never been consistently anyway). The RT spot is a mess with no obvious solution, maybe one of these in house guys steps up, maybe not. Finding a good center isn’t easy, and finding someone as good as Andrews (even the aging version of him is unlikely)

I don’t think a 1st round LT is a lock nor is it a certainty that the guy starts day 1 and is any good. They could go another position, they might take a guy who needs time to develop, they might take a guy who flops.

I think Wolf is unlikely to sign anyone of note, perhaps more trash heap and waiver wire guys. So you’re relying on the draft to improve multiple positions and potentially replace their best OL (Andrews) in their rookie year which strikes me as a long shot.

Sure, there’s a world where they draft the next Orlando Pace at 2nd overall, Strange is healthy and becomes a great center, Sow finds consistency and learns how to pass block, Wallace blossoms at RT and Onwenu loses weight and gets back to being a great RG. I’d bet against each of those things individually and even 2 of them simultaneously happening seems to be a stretch.

They have one OL under contract who seems a good bet for average+ contributions next year (Onwenu). Finding 4 average or better starters from the collection of garbage on the roster and the draft is a tall task for Wolf.

I think the most likely scenario is somewhere between slightly better to slightly worse depending on Andrews.

 

[Morgan's Magic Snowplow]

Is it really so unlikely that the 2025 line will be better? This is being discussed better in the offensive line thread, but...

This offseason you can see many of us expressing deep concern about the line in 2024 and expecting them to be bad, and that was before Andrews and Wallace went down and we knew Strange would miss the first half of the season.

By 2025 Training Camp the line could be:

LT: Top 5 draft pick
LG: Healthy Strange
C: Free agent
RG: Onwenu
RT: Wallace/draft pick/free agent signing

I'm comfortable saying that has at least has a plausible chance to be "significantly" better, yes. Not a top 5 unit, but being "significantly" better than what we have right now is a sadly low bar.

And re the front office, during Wolf's tenure here they have had decent O lines at times. WRs, on the other hand...

Per the Patriots draft thread, its a very poor LT class and there may not be anybody worth spending a Top 10 let alone Top 5 pick on.

We're very likely going to need to address OL big time in free agency next spring, which involves its own difficulties.

 

[NextBigThing8184]

Exactly. Better free agent class. And a probable top 5 pick that can be leveraged to get a proper left tackle, whether picking there, trading down a bit, whatever. Having better FA options + not having to spend the most valuable asset (#3 pick) on a QB should lend to a better OL next year.

there’s nothing to suggest Wolf is going to spend money on quality players in free agency. And what positions are you signing? If you’re drafting someone (or that’s the plan), you’re not laying out big bucks for a LT. I cant see them spending big on the interior where they have Onwenu and a bunch of young guys. Are they going to pay for a RT? Maybe someone to compete with Wallace but certainly not a big ticket.

And drafting a LT isn’t a guarantee and could very well end up with someone worse than Lowe or someone who needs a couple years to develop

 

[Cellar-Door]

there’s nothing to suggest Wolf is going to spend money on quality players in free agency. And what positions are you signing? If you’re drafting someone (or that’s the plan), you’re not laying out big bucks for a LT. I cant see them spending big on the interior where they have Onwenu and a bunch of young guys. Are they going to pay for a RT? Maybe someone to compete with Wallace but certainly not a big ticket.

And drafting a LT isn’t a guarantee and could very well end up with someone worse than Lowe or someone who needs a couple years to develop

I mean, I get this is your schtick, but we know they offerred a truly absurd contract to Ridley who was WR 1 in the class last year, and the rumor is they had the highest offer for Tyron Smith, add in the big contract offer for Aiyuk off a trade and it seems quite clear that Wolf in fact is willing to spend money on quality players...if they are at key positions.

 

[NextBigThing8184]

I mean, I get this is your schtick, but we know they offerred a truly absurd contract to Ridley who was WR 1 in the class last year, and the rumor is they had the highest offer for Tyron Smith, add in the big contract offer for Aiyuk off a trade and it seems quite clear that Wolf in fact is willing to spend money on quality players...if they are at key positions.

It’s not shtick. How much money did Wolf actually spend? Not rumored to or speculated to spend? How much money did he use on external improvements?

If you can’t seal the deal, it’s a sign you’re not actually willing to spend what it takes to make an improvement.

What evidence is there that he will spend on OL or defense? Making a desperation push for Ridley doesn’t tell me much of anything about what Wolf will do in free agency. It should be noted though that Ridley was not, actually, the only available player who could have improved the roster. There were a lot of mid range guys who could have improved or shored up thin areas in the roster.

They decided to buy a bunch of one year trash like Watts, Osborn, injured Takitaki, Hooper and Okorafor.

To me, the evidence suggests Wolf thinks the D is fine, and all the team needs is a bunch of waiver wire guys at 2-4M per. That’s what actually happened. Not what was speculated might have possibly been a consideration to potentially happen had things worked out in a different way.

As it is, if Wolf’s strategy is pick one guy to wildly overpay, and Ridley is his idea of the right guy to back the Brinks truck up for, I think I’d prefer another round of Okorafor and Osborn.

The Pats entered the off-season top 3 in cap space and entered this season top 3 in cap space and did basically nothing to tangibly improve the roster absent drafting a potential QB of the future. That’s a problem.

 

[FL4WL3SS]

Close the thread, it's Maye time!

 

[luckiestman]

If I had a radio show, my drop for this would be NSYNC it’s gonna be Maye