Foundation for next year?

Cesar Crespo

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With his raking in the Arizona Fall League, more and more astute baseball insiders are talking up CJ Chatham as the Sox 2nd baseman in 2020:
Chatham had his best year in the minors in 2019. He hit .298 between Double-A and Triple-A with 31 doubles, one triple, and five home runs. The 24-year-old drove in 46 runs and scored 50 more, stealing seven bases in eight attempts.
He puts the bat on the ball and keeps strikeouts to a minimum. Meanwhile, the glove is real and should actually play very nicely at second base
Ahh yes. The AFL hype train. They said the same about Devin Marrero. If any insiders are making that decision based off 4 games, they aren't very astute at all.


edit: He's played 4 games, 19 PA. .375/.474/.563 with 3bb/7k and 2 doubles. 37% K Rate. 4 games.
 

the count

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bosox79 is right. You can see the five he notes as returning and it seems like the Sox would want to pick up a reliable bp arm or two on the free agent or trade market. Hembree is absolutely the epitome of fungible.
 

Lose Remerswaal

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See my most recent post. Try to talk about more than just two or three guys.

Especially when you've already said your last about one of them.

Repeating the same thoughts over and over will not convince anyone you are right.
 

the count

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Oh its not just the four games in Arizona. I spent a good deal of time in Portland and saw the young man up close for much of the summer. Sometimes you have to look beyond the numbers
 

Lose Remerswaal

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Oh its not just the four games in Arizona. I spent a good deal of time in Portland and saw the young man up close for much of the summer. Sometimes you have to look beyond the numbers
How about a bet as to Chatham's success with the Boston Red Sox in 2020?

Propose some measurable stats: WAR, ABs, games, etc, and we can wager on his success, with the loser owing the Jimmy Fund $50 or $100. Include Marcus Wilson if you'd like.
 

Cesar Crespo

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Oh its not just the four games in Arizona. I spent a good deal of time in Portland and saw the young man up close for much of the summer. Sometimes you have to look beyond the numbers
I saw him a bunch in Portland too and came away thinking utility infielder unless he adds some power to his game. He's also played 3 games at 2b in the AFL and has made 2 errors. Errors aren't everything but I doubt he's wowed scouts with his glove during that time.

Anyway, since we are talking AFL, Marcus Wilson is continuing to build on his strong season and is slashing .500/.611/786 in 18 PA with 3bb/4k. He hit .342/.413/.603 in A ball and .250/.325/.486 in 163 PA in AA after being called back up. From May 22nd til the end of the season: 318 PA, .305/.377/.563, 25 doubles, 1 triple, 15 HRs, 32bb/92k. He just turned 23.

Jarren Duran is hitting .400/.438/.400 in 16 PA

Yoan Aybar 2 games, 3.0 ip, 0.00 era, 0 hits, 3bb/2k
Jhonathan Diaz 2 games 3.0 ip, 3.00 era, 2 hits, 1 er, 2bb/5k
Tanner Houck 2 games, 5.1 ip, 6.75 era, 7 hits, 6r/4er, 3bb/3k
Bryan Mata 2 games, 3.0 ip, 0.00 era, 1bb/3k

I think that's all of them. All on Peoria.
 

E5 Yaz

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Oh its not just the four games in Arizona. I spent a good deal of time in Portland and saw the young man up close for much of the summer. Sometimes you have to look beyond the numbers
So the "astute baseball insiders" you referenced earlier were you and those sitting around you at Sea Dogs games?
 

nattysez

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Really interesting tweet by RSS:

View: https://twitter.com/redsoxstats/status/1177648839790125058


Assuming everyone's back to full health, that team needs:
Porcello back for cheap,
sixth and seventh starters stashed in AAA,
OF help (which moves Chavis back to the IF),
a better bullpen (which is where you'd have to spend some $), and
a little luck with the young right side of the IF panning out and Benintendi bouncing back.
 

sean1562

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honestly that roster would be lucky to compete for the 2nd WC spot.. I would assume we are just punting the season at that point.
 

The Gray Eagle

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If Betts is gone, then we'd presumably be trading him for someone. The return for him, whoever it would be, would be part of that roster, unless he's traded for prospects who aren't ready for the majors in 2020.

I think letting JD walk while also trading Betts for guys who aren't ready to play right away would be a bigtime PR hit for the team and would impact ticket sales and ratings quite a bit. They would clearly be not trying to win, and not many people around here are going to spend big money to go see a team that isn't even trying to win.

And that team would also have what, $70 million tied up in starting pitchers over 30 who are coming back from injury filled seasons? None of those pitchers are going to be moved unless and until they show they are healthy and effective again, so it seems like a real mess to decimate the offense and punt on the season, taking a big hit on ticket sales and ratings, while most of your rotation is expensive veterans. It just doesn't add up.

They'd be far better off keeping the core for one more season and trying to compete. If Betts leaves then, his salary is off the books, and JD might opt out then. You'd have more knowledge of what those veteran starters have left and an idea of whether you can move any of them. They'll also be a year closer to the end of their contracts.

One more year with the core seems to be the way to go.
 

Savin Hillbilly

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The wrong side of the bridge....
Anyway, since we are talking AFL, Marcus Wilson is continuing to build on his strong season and is slashing .500/.611/786 in 18 PA with 3bb/4k. He hit .342/.413/.603 in A ball and .250/.325/.486 in 163 PA in AA after being called back up. From May 22nd til the end of the season: 318 PA, .305/.377/.563, 25 doubles, 1 triple, 15 HRs, 32bb/92k. He just turned 23.
Wilson is enticing, but his K rates scare the daylights out of me. If he's striking out 35 percent of the time in double-A, what's major league pitching gonna do to him?

OTOH, if his defense really is above-average, as SP claims, and the power translates to the big leagues, he could be a sleeper. The timing of his development vs. JBJ's free agency lines up rather nicely. It'll be fun to watch him next year and see what happens.
 

Cesar Crespo

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Wilson is enticing, but his K rates scare the daylights out of me. If he's striking out 35 percent of the time in double-A, what's major league pitching gonna do to him?

OTOH, if his defense really is above-average, as SP claims, and the power translates to the big leagues, he could be a sleeper. The timing of his development vs. JBJ's free agency lines up rather nicely. It'll be fun to watch him next year and see what happens.
Yeah, the K rate is his one weakness, and it's a huge weakness. He's a 5 tool player though, so if he can make enough contact at the MLB level, he'll be able to provide value in all facets of the game. With a little luck, he's what we wanted Blake Swihart to be. A league average hitter at a premium position, with Marcus having the added benefit of being a better defender. It would be pretty ironic if we ended up getting a decent player for Blake Swihart after all, just way after the fact.
 

Plympton91

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I saw him a bunch in Portland too and came away thinking utility infielder unless he adds some power to his game. He's also played 3 games at 2b in the AFL and has made 2 errors. Errors aren't everything but I doubt he's wowed scouts with his glove during that time.

Anyway, since we are talking AFL, Marcus Wilson is continuing to build on his strong season and is slashing .500/.611/786 in 18 PA with 3bb/4k. He hit .342/.413/.603 in A ball and .250/.325/.486 in 163 PA in AA after being called back up. From May 22nd til the end of the season: 318 PA, .305/.377/.563, 25 doubles, 1 triple, 15 HRs, 32bb/92k. He just turned 23.

Jarren Duran is hitting .400/.438/.400 in 16 PA

Yoan Aybar 2 games, 3.0 ip, 0.00 era, 0 hits, 3bb/2k
Jhonathan Diaz 2 games 3.0 ip, 3.00 era, 2 hits, 1 er, 2bb/5k
Tanner Houck 2 games, 5.1 ip, 6.75 era, 7 hits, 6r/4er, 3bb/3k
Bryan Mata 2 games, 3.0 ip, 0.00 era, 1bb/3k

I think that's all of them. All on Peoria.
There’s an article on MLB.com with running game summaries. One of them notes that Mata is throwing 97-99 out of the bullpen.
 

Plympton91

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As I put in another thread, JD Martinez is getting $22 million. Last off-season, Nelson Cruz signed for $14 million with a $12 million club option. This winter, Ryan Zimmerman, Abreu, Kendrick, and Encarnacion are all going to be free agents. There’s more supply of DHs than there are DH jobs, unless they immediately add the DH in the NL. They can probably get 90% of JDMs production for 25% of the cost. They’ll be able to bring Moreland back for $5 million.

Get Moreland and Zimmerman (who maybe can stay healthy at DH) with Dalbec in the wings, and it’ll be ok.
 

sean1562

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ryan zimmerman hasnt been good in awhile. i think he is either gonna sign a cheap deal with the nats to be their backup 1B or just retire. he loves it in dc
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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Makes all the sense in the world to make him a fair offer and buy out a few years of free agency. However, in light of the news yesterday that they're hoping to get under the luxury tax threshold, it is also a bit contradictory. An extension only makes him more expensive, which only makes it harder to shrink the overall payroll. It's not as though he's going anywhere if they don't do the extension, perhaps it would be prudent to wait another year.
 

sean1562

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eh if they could lock devers up for a few extra years i think getting rid of mookie and JDM would be easier to swallow. It seems that they might be thinking this core isnt going to be really competitive next year(the yankees and astros are stacked) and are looking to get set up for 2022 and later.

edit: essentially, if the front office is making a choice to not get hamstrung by a long term mookie betts deal to give devers an extension and trust in the farm system to produce quality players, i could support that. a lot of it depends on how high they are on players like mata, groome, and casas. maybe they think that is the next core for this team and aving players like devers and xander around in their prime years could be really valuable. yea, losing betts would suck, but i dont think ill have much issue turning xander and devers into my favorite red sox players for the next 6/7 years. 38 year old mookie making 36 mil a year doesnt sound all that appealing
 
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DeadlySplitter

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the thought I keep coming back to is that our lack of developing pitching is finally biting us in the ass. Eventually you can't' patch up every pitching hole with FA, you're going to make an albatross FA deal or two eventually because that's what comes with free agnecy. (and the core problem is we may have three albatross contracts in the rotation).

there have been some shrewd moves on the margins to keep the rotation afloat - ERod for 2 months of Andrew Miller in 2014 the big steal, Porcello for Cespedes before 2015, 1.5 good years of Pomeranz for a teenager prospect who looks like a TJ bust now - but the bottom line is they haven't drafted a competent starter in a decade.
 

sean1562

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yea, they really need a few of the guys in the minors to pan out if they are going to be competitive moving forward. i wouldnt blame a front office for looking at the team we have, comparing it to what else is in the AL right now, and just not seeing a squad that can stand up to those teams. The Yankees with a healthy roster would have had the type of record the sox had last year, and that isnt going away anytime soon. sometimes you have to be realistic and look forward to the future
 

brandonchristensen

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yea, they really need a few of the guys in the minors to pan out if they are going to be competitive moving forward. i wouldnt blame a front office for looking at the team we have, comparing it to what else is in the AL right now, and just not seeing a squad that can stand up to those teams. The Yankees with a healthy roster would have had the type of record the sox had last year, and that isnt going away anytime soon. sometimes you have to be realistic and look forward to the future
It’s hard to say the Yankees would have been better with the healthy roster. It’s possible, sure, but they played out of their minds with the replacements. Who knows what would have happened.

Sox were favorites going into this year, half of their roster failed to perform to expectations, the starters were horrific.

You never know.
 

Savin Hillbilly

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The wrong side of the bridge....
the bottom line is they haven't drafted a competent starter in a decade.
I think it's more than a decade. AFAICT the most recent Sox draftee who has had any kind of success as a starting pitcher in the majors is Justin Masterson (2006). The year before that, Buchholz, and then three years before that, Lester. But that seems to be it for the 21st century so far. Three guys, none for 13 years. Am I missing somebody?
 

Cesar Crespo

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I think it's more than a decade. AFAICT the most recent Sox draftee who has had any kind of success as a starting pitcher in the majors is Justin Masterson (2006). The year before that, Buchholz, and then three years before that, Lester. But that seems to be it for the 21st century so far. Three guys, none for 13 years. Am I missing somebody?
Felix Doubront.

If you want to argue semantics, I guess you are right. He wasn't "drafted."
 

Savin Hillbilly

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The wrong side of the bridge....
Felix Doubront.

If you want to argue semantics, I guess you are right. He wasn't "drafted."
Yeah, I was looking specifically at the draft. But even if you include Doubront -- and he's borderline from the "success" as well as the "draft" perspective -- that's four guys in 20 years. Not four #1s, just four starters who established themselves in a rotation somewhere for at least a couple of years. It's possible Kopech, Beeks, Logan Allen, or somebody still in the system like Groome could eventually achieve enough to fill out that list, but it still seems like a pretty meager harvest. What are we doing wrong that other teams are doing right?
 

Rovin Romine

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There's no real difference between drafting or signing or trading - so long as you get young, cost controlled pitchers at reasonable prices. And there's no real difference between extending/resigning a home grown pitcher or signing a FA from outside the org - so long as you get a return of reasonable production for that contract.
 

Cesar Crespo

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Yeah, I was looking specifically at the draft. But even if you include Doubront -- and he's borderline from the "success" as well as the "draft" perspective -- that's four guys in 20 years. Not four #1s, just four starters who established themselves in a rotation somewhere for at least a couple of years. It's possible Kopech, Beeks, Logan Allen, or somebody still in the system like Groome could eventually achieve enough to fill out that list, but it still seems like a pretty meager harvest. What are we doing wrong that other teams are doing right?
We reach and draft "interesting" guys that scouts are mixed on like Trey Ball and Henry Owens. Injuries haven't helped either. I also remember an article from awhile back with Theo on the Cubs saying something like there's always pitching to be signed on the FA market, so develop positional players because they are more predictable. I wouldn't be shocked if there's a lot of TINSTAPP in the Sox front office.
 

Savin Hillbilly

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The wrong side of the bridge....
We reach and draft "interesting" guys that scouts are mixed on like Trey Ball and Henry Owens. Injuries haven't helped either. I also remember an article from awhile back with Theo on the Cubs saying something like there's always pitching to be signed on the FA market, so develop positional players because they are more predictable. I wouldn't be shocked if there's a lot of TINSTAPP in the Sox front office.
The trouble with this philosophy -- as we're seeing now -- is that pitchers remain more unpredictable than position players (at least as to their health) even after they are established. And unpredictability can do a lot more damage when you're paying $20-30M a year for it.
 

Plympton91

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We reach and draft "interesting" guys that scouts are mixed on like Trey Ball and Henry Owens. Injuries haven't helped either. I also remember an article from awhile back with Theo on the Cubs saying something like there's always pitching to be signed on the FA market, so develop positional players because they are more predictable. I wouldn't be shocked if there's a lot of TINSTAPP in the Sox front office.
Owens was a frustrating case to me. If you’re including Dubrount, you could almost have him in the same class. Owens blew through the minors and had 2 months with the Sox in 2015 that would have been half a decade of perfectly good “cheap 5th starter” innings.

Then the Red Sox and he started “fixing” stuff, and he completely lost the ability to throw strikes by 2017. They had actually developed a starting pitcher, then they wrecked him.
 

sean1562

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Felix Doubront accumulated all of -0.6 bWAR in his career as a Red Sox. If we are including him we can include Brian Johnson and Hector Velazquez as well.

I always remembered Doubront having some great games but looking back at his stats, he was terrible with us.

https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/d/doubrfe01.shtml
we really need groome and mata to turn into serviceable major league guys. What is the story with Noah Song? was he able to postpone his commitment or are we gonna lose him for two years?
 

lexrageorge

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Owens was a frustrating case to me. If you’re including Dubrount, you could almost have him in the same class. Owens blew through the minors and had 2 months with the Sox in 2015 that would have been half a decade of perfectly good “cheap 5th starter” innings.

Then the Red Sox and he started “fixing” stuff, and he completely lost the ability to throw strikes by 2017. They had actually developed a starting pitcher, then they wrecked him.
I doubt Owens soft toss game would have aged very well once opposing teams got film on his tendencies.
 

Cesar Crespo

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Felix Doubront accumulated all of -0.6 bWAR in his career as a Red Sox. If we are including him we can include Brian Johnson and Hector Velazquez as well.

I always remembered Doubront having some great games but looking back at his stats, he was terrible with us.

https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/d/doubrfe01.shtml
we really need groome and mata to turn into serviceable major league guys. What is the story with Noah Song? was he able to postpone his commitment or are we gonna lose him for two years?
He said any kind of success. He didn't say a successful career. Doubront's 2013 was decent. There's also a difference between pitching 160 innings for 2 years in a row and Brian Johnson who has all of 115 innings as a starter over 4 seasons.
 

Cesar Crespo

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Either way, it's pretty sad when Felix Doubront is the best starting pitcher the Sox have developed to make his debut this decade if you exclude EdRod. By far the most games started and IP unless I'm missing someone.

edit: There's Steven Wright too, but if EdRod doesn't count, he doesn't either. Even if EdRod did count, I'm not sure Wright should. As far as I can tell, out of all the Redsox IFA/draft picks starting pitchers to make their debut since 2010, Brian Johnson is actually 2nd in starts at 26 and 2nd in innings as a starter at 115.0. Henry Owens is 3rd. That can't be right.
 
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Plympton91

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I think you can count Wright. They got him as a minor leaguer and Wakefield was instrumental in his success.
 

JimD

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Makes all the sense in the world to make him a fair offer and buy out a few years of free agency. However, in light of the news yesterday that they're hoping to get under the luxury tax threshold, it is also a bit contradictory. An extension only makes him more expensive, which only makes it harder to shrink the overall payroll. It's not as though he's going anywhere if they don't do the extension, perhaps it would be prudent to wait another year.
Bradford used Alex Bregman as a comparison. The Astros first renewed Bregman's 2019 contract for $640,500 before announcing the extension a week later, which included a $10 million signing bonus. The new deal takes effect starting in 2020, so the bonus can be spread out over the length of the contract, correct?
 

Savin Hillbilly

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The wrong side of the bridge....
Bradford used Alex Bregman as a comparison. The Astros first renewed Bregman's 2019 contract for $640,500 before announcing the extension a week later, which included a $10 million signing bonus. The new deal takes effect starting in 2020, so the bonus can be spread out over the length of the contract, correct?
Wait, so Devers could get the bonus immediately yet it wouldn't count toward the AAV till 2021? How is that kosher?
 

Cesar Crespo

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Curious what they are going to do with JBJ. Seems like an easy way to save $10 mil but it may depend on what happens with JD and Betts. It's not out of the question that the only returning OF next year is Benny.
 

JimD

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Curious what they are going to do with JBJ. Seems like an easy way to save $10 mil but it may depend on what happens with JD and Betts. It's not out of the question that the only returning OF next year is Benny.
I think Bradley is gone either way - can't afford him if they keep Betts and Martinez, and if those two are gone and they're rebuilding then why bother overpaying for his glove?
 

JBJ_HOF

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There are like 4 free agent outfielders that could play regularly and won't have a QO. If you want to replace Jackie Bradley how do you do it? you'd just be creating another huge hole and then having to fill it with someone like Puig who will cost the same if not more while not having a centerfielder.
 

Savin Hillbilly

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The wrong side of the bridge....
There are like 4 free agent outfielders that could play regularly and won't have a QO. If you want to replace Jackie Bradley how do you do it? you'd just be creating another huge hole and then having to fill it with someone like Puig who will cost the same if not more while not having a centerfielder.
Benintendi can play center. Not as well as JBJ, but well enough to get by with. I'd be surprised if their strategy was to trade JBJ and then try to replace him with a CF. It's a lot easier to find corner outfielders.
 

JBJ_HOF

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Benintendi can play center. Not as well as JBJ, but well enough to get by with. I'd be surprised if their strategy was to trade JBJ and then try to replace him with a CF. It's a lot easier to find corner outfielders.
Counterargument, he can barely play left field even with Fenway being his home park
 

Cesar Crespo

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There are like 4 free agent outfielders that could play regularly and won't have a QO. If you want to replace Jackie Bradley how do you do it? you'd just be creating another huge hole and then having to fill it with someone like Puig who will cost the same if not more while not having a centerfielder.
If both JD and Betts are gone, does it really matter if there's a huge hole in CF? May as well try Benny in CF during a rebuilding season and see what you got.
 

Plympton91

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Counterargument, he can barely play left field even with Fenway being his home park
Have the so-called “advanced” defensive context-dependent counting “stats” figured out how to adjust for Fenway’s left field yet?
 

Savin Hillbilly

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The wrong side of the bridge....
Counterargument, he can barely play left field even with Fenway being his home park
What's your evidence for this proposition? His defensive stats in LF took a bit of a hit this year, but they were still more or less average, and that's a one-year blip. Overall, his numbers have been above average, and since he only just turned 25, he shouldn't be declining sharply for a few years yet. His career UZR/150 in CF is -3.4. He'd be a CF like Xander is a SS: we'd benefit from a better one, but the difference wouldn't bite us often or hard enough to worry about. And his good-not-great offense would play much better there.
 

JBJ_HOF

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Have the so-called “advanced” defensive context-dependent counting “stats” figured out how to adjust for Fenway’s left field yet?
Yes, statcast accounts for the wall in their outs above average which he is one of the the worst outfielders in baseball. the other metrics are based on stringers watching every play so that accounts for the wall now as well. for whatever reason benintinedi's speed has been getting worse every year.
 

Cesar Crespo

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Yes, statcast accounts for the wall in their outs above average which he is one of the the worst outfielders in baseball. the other metrics are based on stringers watching every play so that accounts for the wall now as well. for whatever reason benintinedi's speed has been getting worse every year.
That reason is aging. Everyone's speed gets worse every year.
 

The Gray Eagle

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I agree Benintendi definitely looks heavier and seems slower than even last year. My guess is that he tried to bulk up to hit more home runs, but if so, it obviously failed miserably. Hopefully he'll work on dropping some weight and getting some of his speed back this offseason.