Game Balls—Week 9 vs Carolina

rodderick

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 24, 2009
9,864
Belo Horizonte - Brazil
What are your main concerns with Jones if you are going to be this meh on him?

I am sure the points you will respond with will be strong, but saying he won't be better than Daniel Jones a QB he is currently outplaying, feels like a comment to just draw a reaction.
It's less that I have some real concerns and more that I just haven't seen much. They simply don't ask him to do a lot, so most games he just doesn't do a lot. I don't know what he'll be, maybe 5 weeks from now I'll be convinced he's Phillip Rivers, but I've seen a lot of certainty surrounding Mac and I've yet to formulate an opinion that isn't "he can hang in the league, but I have no clue how good he can be". And it's not even about throwing deep or whatever, one of the few things I'm convinced about is actually his ability to throw a mean sideline fade.
 

rodderick

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 24, 2009
9,864
Belo Horizonte - Brazil
If you had to win a game right now and you could choose Mac or Daniel are you saying you'd have to think about it?
For the future I'm obviously taking Mac because I think he has a good chance of being better than Daniel Jones is now, though Daniel Jones was also better (or at least the same) than what he is now as a rookie, arguably. But right now? I think they're performing at a similar enough level that I could take either one, honestly.
 

Eddie Jurak

canderson-lite
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 12, 2002
38,964
Melrose, MA
Anyone have thoughts as to why Bolden and Stevenson each ran the ball very well on running plays, while Harris was mostly bottled up?
 

Bowhemian

Member
SoSH Member
Nov 10, 2015
4,500
Bow, NH
Anyone have thoughts as to why Bolden and Stevenson each ran the ball very well on running plays, while Harris was mostly bottled up?
Mostly a guess, but perhaps Carolina knew that when Harris was in the backfield, the Pats were running the ball. He really hasn't seen a lot of snaps on passing downs.
 

Van Everyman

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 30, 2009
23,920
Newton
For the future I'm obviously taking Mac because I think he has a good chance of being better than Daniel Jones is now, though Daniel Jones was also better (or at least the same) than what he is now as a rookie, arguably. But right now? I think they're performing at a similar enough level that I could take either one, honestly.
I can't help but think a lot of how well most quarterbacks do or don't develop has to do with coaching. I sometimes wonder whether it's as much as 75% of their performance. Certainly somebody like Peyton Manning would've been who he was almost regardless of where he played. But even in the case of Brady, I feel like having a coaching staff who early on helped him slow the game down some was huge -- and gave him the cushion he needed to work on things like his deep ball as he got further into his career. So for that reason alone, if you're choosing Joneses, I think part of the reason you'd be more bullish on Mac than Daniel has to be Belichick/McDaniels vs. Pat Shurmer/Mike Shula and Joe Judge/Jason Garrett.

This isn't to say that Bill is some magician who would've had, say, Jarrett Stidham playing like this in his rookie season -- personally, I think he still places a much higher priority on decision making over tools at the QB position than most coaches. And certainly, Daniel Jones has shown flashes of tools. But the coaching/development piece is just a huge reason I don't think Mac turns out anything like Daniel -- if for no reason than I just don't ever imagine Bill pushing Mac to sling it the way the NYG have with Daniel from time to time, often with disastrous results.
 

DJnVa

Dorito Dawg
SoSH Member
Dec 16, 2010
49,148
BB to Jackson:

“I talked to him after the game,” coach Bill Belichick said. “I told him I hope that’s not a sign of things to come, to think we don’t need to practice and then go out and be the star of the game.”
 

Van Everyman

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 30, 2009
23,920
Newton
They also seemed to have Harris running it up the gut (a la Sony) where Rham and BBMM seemed to be running outside a bit more (and yes, with passing as an option).

Harris has seemed pretty good in the passing game, at least as a checkdown option. I'm slightly surprised they don't use him that way more, if only to be a little less predictable.
 

Red Averages

owes you $50
SoSH Member
Apr 20, 2003
7,680
I think he really likes this team too. Seems to be loosening up at the margin as the team gets stronger (particularly on defense).
 

bakahump

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jan 8, 2001
7,189
Maine
I have said that an NFL QB is basically hunger games. You need to survive long enough to be good. What BB and the Pats bring is Stability. If they ran the ball 70 times a game and scored 12 pts a game BB isnt getting fired. He can afford to do that. Obviously that is extreme hyperbole but building a team AND Gameplan week to week that gives you 8-9-10 wins and PHYSICALLY Protect Jones is something that BB can do with no pressure. Other guys (HCs) need to produce....so their players need to produce......so their Rookie QB needs to Produce. So next thing you know Coach "AA" is having his newly minted 1st round QB Starting and dropping back 40 times.
One of those 40 times he gets killed. So he is out 4 games. Then 2 games after his return he gets killed again missing a game.
Hard to make the club from the tub .....and more to the point hard to become an "Experienced" QB from the Tub.

If BB (and Josh MCD) keep Jones upright for all 16 This year we have a top 15 QB next year. If he stays upright through next year I can see a Bottom half of top 10 QB moving forward.
He will never lead the league in passing or TDs. But BB will keep him ON the field enough to learn and get better and improve and become a #8 QB during his best years.

All the best QBs stay on the field. Part of that is Chicken (they are good and have fast release...correct Protection....correct hot read) and some of that is egg (they have stayed on the field to learn the correct Protection and the correct hot reads)
 

Hoya81

Member
SoSH Member
Feb 3, 2010
6,923
I can't help but think a lot of how well most quarterbacks do or don't develop has to do with coaching. I sometimes wonder whether it's as much as 75% of their performance. Certainly somebody like Peyton Manning would've been who he was almost regardless of where he played. But even in the case of Brady, I feel like having a coaching staff who early on helped him slow the game down some was huge -- and gave him the cushion he needed to work on things like his deep ball as he got further into his career. So for that reason alone, if you're choosing Joneses, I think part of the reason you'd be more bullish on Mac than Daniel has to be Belichick/McDaniels vs. Pat Shurmer/Mike Shula and Joe Judge/Jason Garrett.
Peyton struggled a bit more through his first 9 games than Mac has. Leaf being such a disaster overshadowed a lot of things, but through 9 games:
Manning
183/334/55%, 2013 yards, 12TD/18INT, QB rating 62.4, 1-8 record
Mac
204/300/68%, 2135 yards, 10TD/7INT, QB rating 89.8, 5-4 record
 

Van Everyman

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 30, 2009
23,920
Newton
Peyton struggled a bit more through his first 9 games than Mac has. Leaf being such a disaster overshadowed a lot of things, but through 9 games:
Manning
183/334/55%, 2013 yards, 12TD/18INT, QB rating 62.4, 1-8 record
Mac
204/300/68%, 2135 yards, 10TD/7INT, QB rating 89.8, 5-4 record
Different era of course but your point holds. I think all I’m really saying, as @bakahump is as well, is that the Pats have the ability to bring Mac along at his own pace, with a proven system around him and not a ton of pressure to “prove” anything beyond that he belongs.

I would love to know what Belichick and Saban discussed about Mac.
 

snowmanny

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 8, 2005
14,181
Also, I can't argue that Brady's college stats matched Manning's, but his Senior year they were very good and his team did just as well as Manning's (in Peyton's senior year) against comparable competition. It's not like Brady was coming from Delaware or North Dakota State. I think the reason that Brady played differently than Manning early on wasn't because of coddling. It was a player/coach philosophy that interceptions are really bad. Although I agree that over time Brady learned how to do more without turning the ball over more (or actually while turning the ball over even less). Manning, on the other hand, learned how to keep slinging while turning the ball over less.
 

tims4wins

PN23's replacement
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
31,856
Hingham, MA
Also, I can't argue that Brady's college stats matched Manning's, but his Senior year they were very good and his team did just as well as Manning's (in Peyton's senior year) against comparable competition. It's not like Brady was coming from Delaware or North Dakota State. I think the reason that Brady played differently than Manning early on wasn't because of coddling. It was a player/coach philosophy that interceptions are really bad. Although I agree that over time Brady learned how to do more without turning the ball over more (or actually while turning the ball over even less). Manning, on the other hand, learned how to keep slinging while turning the ball over less.
These are good points.
 

rodderick

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 24, 2009
9,864
Belo Horizonte - Brazil
I can't help but think a lot of how well most quarterbacks do or don't develop has to do with coaching. I sometimes wonder whether it's as much as 75% of their performance. Certainly somebody like Peyton Manning would've been who he was almost regardless of where he played. But even in the case of Brady, I feel like having a coaching staff who early on helped him slow the game down some was huge -- and gave him the cushion he needed to work on things like his deep ball as he got further into his career. So for that reason alone, if you're choosing Joneses, I think part of the reason you'd be more bullish on Mac than Daniel has to be Belichick/McDaniels vs. Pat Shurmer/Mike Shula and Joe Judge/Jason Garrett.

This isn't to say that Bill is some magician who would've had, say, Jarrett Stidham playing like this in his rookie season -- personally, I think he still places a much higher priority on decision making over tools at the QB position than most coaches. And certainly, Daniel Jones has shown flashes of tools. But the coaching/development piece is just a huge reason I don't think Mac turns out anything like Daniel -- if for no reason than I just don't ever imagine Bill pushing Mac to sling it the way the NYG have with Daniel from time to time, often with disastrous results.
You're 100% right about that. I'm likely evaluating those guys in a vacuum without taking into account the coaching and overall structure around them, which is crucial. I like Mac, I don't think anyone can reasonably expect a rookie to give a team much more than what Mac has given, and maybe I'm just spending way too much time on Reddit and Twitter, but I see these definitive statements about what Mac will be (or already is) that I don't really get. But at the very least he provides you a good baseline of performance to work with.
 

Import78

Member
SoSH Member
May 29, 2007
1,988
West Lebanon, NH
I almost felt bad for Darnold on that one. They had a view from somewhere behind the QB on the broadcast and I couldn't see any part of Collins when he was winding up the throw. There were a couple of linemen blocking him so he probably should have known someone was there, but Collins popped up out of nowhere.
 

Jed Zeppelin

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 23, 2008
47,209
Easily one of the most impressive LB interceptions I've ever seen. He's fully engaged with a lineman, disengages and leaps immediately upon release, freaking high points it and has it secured in his hands by the time his feet hit the ground. Some luck that the ball was aimed right into the pocket, yes, but an amazing athletic play overall.

Darnold was awful yesterday but after that one he was probably sitting on the sidelines thinking he is actually cursed. Edit: great point above about what Darnold is seeing. While Barmore is coming in late (and being held), he has what you would expect to be a decently clear throwing window.
 

Ale Xander

doesn't like to back it in
SoSH Member
Oct 31, 2013
55,771
Just finished watching it now,
Gorgeous coverer, JC Jackson
 

Bleedred

Member
SoSH Member
Feb 21, 2001
9,129
Boston, MA
I was at the game yesterday and was dumbfounded by how terrible San Darnold is. Yes, the Patriots defense played very well and was a big part of the reason for SD's poor play, and Carolina certainly has limited weapons on offense, but it was almost as if Darnold was an embedded Patriot. The passes made on the 2 JCJ interceptions were so awful. Even in real time you saw that JCJ had outstanding coverage and not only did Darnold throw the ball directly into that coverage, but he didn't even give his WR a chance to high point the ball or any other fighting chance. He made a half dozen other terrible plays. I don't know if he was hurt or what, but just a craptacular performance.

A pastor recited a public prayer before the National Anthem made me realize I was in the South.
 

Eddie Jurak

canderson-lite
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 12, 2002
38,964
Melrose, MA
I was at the game yesterday and was dumbfounded by how terrible San Darnold is. Yes, the Patriots defense played very well and was a big part of the reason for SD's poor play, and Carolina certainly has limited weapons on offense, but it was almost as if Darnold was an embedded Patriot. The passes made on the 2 JCJ interceptions were so awful. Even in real time you saw that JCJ had outstanding coverage and not only did Darnold throw the ball directly into that coverage, but he didn't even give his WR a chance to high point the ball or any other fighting chance. He made a half dozen other terrible plays. I don't know if he was hurt or what, but just a craptacular performance.

A pastor recited a public prayer before the National Anthem made me realize I was in the South.
Darnold career TD/INT ratio: 52-50. But in 4 games vs the Pats he is 1 TD/9 INT. Miami also has his number 4 TD/10 INT.

He's 13-28 overall as a starter, but 1-8 against NE and MIA.
 

BaseballJones

ivanvamp
SoSH Member
Oct 1, 2015
18,920
Has anyone seen any updates on Harris and Stevenson? I haven't been able to find anything.
 

lexrageorge

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 31, 2007
15,614
We'll know more on Wednesday, as there are a lot of moving roster parts right now. The Pats have decisions to make on Stidham and Cowart; they either need to be activated by Wednesday or be forced to spend the rest of the season on IR. Wino and Trent Brown are both eligible to come off IR. And there's the Beckham waiver deadline at 4pm ;) . And Gunner was hurt as well. Wednesday is also the first day that practice participation reports are published.
 

Van Everyman

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 30, 2009
23,920
Newton
Hopefully, all three of these guys made their way to the TB12 store at Patriot Place to get a few gallons of concussion water.