General Playoff Thread: The Long 2nd Season

BigSoxFan

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Draymond hate steeps deep and strong in these parts.

They had another tangle later in the game where both went down. Again. Nobody cried. Bigs bang. Respect after the game.
Draymond could have broken Adams' arm in a play that was as dirty as you'll see in basketball. The fact that Adams apparently has the patience and tolerance of a Buddhist monk doesn't make Draymond any less of a shithead.
 

jablo1312

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Draymond hate steeps deep and strong in these parts.

They had another tangle later in the game where both went down. Again. Nobody cried. Bigs bang. Respect after the game.
Bigs bang for sure, I just don't think locking someones arm down and dragging them to the floor with you is "banging". It seems worse than the Olynyk play, and dangerous too. I'd say the same thing about anyone else doing it.
 

Sox and Rocks

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OKC blew the series by losing game 6 at home.

This game reminded me of an NFL game where one team puts up 400-500 yards of offense and limits the opposition to about half of that, but struggles offensively in the red zone, loses the turnover and special teams battle, and gives up big plays to lose.

OKC created better shots, especially in the first half, but they missed too many of them. Meanwhile, GS took many "bad" threes, but nailed them.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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I will stay out of the Draymond scrum here because its clear that many folks dislike him and his game.

That said, I cannot fathom the Durant criticism here. Andre Iguodala played some fantastic defense on him - imho Kerr's reliance on Iguodala (including the start tonight) was one of the turning points of the series. That said, Durant and Westbrook had to carry the lion's share of the scoring for the past two games because Roberson, Ibaka and Waiters all cooled off from their above average shooting earlier in the series. To me, this series featured some of the best coaching adjustments I've seen in the playoffs, ever. Donovan's use of his team's length to frustrate Curry and Thompson was inspired and Kerr's counter was equally great.

That said, if I am Durant I don't necessarily bolt this team. Adams has really stepped up his game, Roberson, provided he can improve his outside shot and get at least respectable at free-throwing will be a great piece for OKC with his fantastic defense and if they can get a few more bench pieces, they are right there. They clearly have the right coach and appear to have a passionate fan base. The right thing for Durant (money!) and the NBA is for him to stay in OKC at least one more year.

Regarding the finals, I think it goes seven. On paper, the match-ups favor the Warriors but I have seen enough of LeBron, including game six of the 2011 ECF live (ugh) to know that he can flat out dominate the opposition all by himself. And unlike last year when he was asked to do it all, he is going to have plenty of offense around him in Irving, Love, Smith, Thompson and Frye. As someone else observed upthread, this may well be the equal of the OKC/GS series in terms of competitiveness and entertainment.
 

GeorgeCostanza

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Draymond could have broken Adams' arm in a play that was as dirty as you'll see in basketball. The fact that Adams apparently has the patience and tolerance of a Buddhist monk doesn't make Draymond any less of a shithead.

While egregious and unnecessary, I'd put D-Wade wrecking Rondo's arm a bit worse. A tech may have been called for there, maybe even a flagrant, but I don't think it's anywhere near suspension worthy. The "ouch my head" acting was a nice touch at the end. He is becoming a bit unlikable which is unfortunate considering most of that team is hella fun to root for. He's also a damned good basketball player who doesn't need that sort of garbage in his game.
 

GeorgeCostanza

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That said, I cannot fathom the Durant criticism here. Andre Iguodala played some fantastic defense on him - imho Kerr's reliance on Iguodala (including the start tonight) was one of the turning points of the series.
As he showed last year in the finals, and frankly throughout his career, Iggy is a fantastic wing defender so it shouldn't be all that surprising that KD had his fair share of struggles against him. However he did take some god awful shots, and for that criticism is warranted. I don't think he should bolt OKC either, and if I had to bet, I would bet on him staying. As constituted they are a perennial championship contender, just unfortunately for them it's coincided so far with the super team in Miami and The splash brothers coming of age in Oakland.
 

tbrep

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Speaking of Iggy's defense, he was asked after Game 6 about his favorite defensive performance. He picked Nov 11, 2005 when he held an in-his prime Kobe to 7-27 shooting and 17 points. When the 76ers came to Los Angeles later that 2005-06 season, Kobe came by the Philadelphia locker room. Iguodala wasn’t in there, but Kobe left a message. “Tell Andre 50 tonight." He ended up getting 48.
 

Soxfan in Fla

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Speaking of Iggy's defense, he was asked after Game 6 about his favorite defensive performance. He picked Nov 11, 2005 when he held an in-his prime Kobe to 7-27 shooting and 17 points. When the 76ers came to Los Angeles later that 2005-06 season, Kobe came by the Philadelphia locker room. Iguodala wasn’t in there, but Kobe left a message. “Tell Andre 50 tonight." He ended up getting 48.
How many shots for Kobe that night? 40? Speaks highly of Iggy and volumes about the selfishness of Kobe.
 

johnmd20

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Warriors are -215 favorites. Not surprising at all, Cleveland doesn't have the height OKC had. Hopefully it's a close series but I think Cleveland must have really been pulling for Oklahoma. Cleveland's best chance is to get Green to lose his mind and do something stupid. He's dangerous out there right now, a dirty, cheap shot player. Even Dwyane Wade is embarrassed for Green. They need to push his buttons.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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On paper, the match-ups favor the Warriors but I have seen enough of LeBron, including game six of the 2011 ECF live (ugh) to know that he can flat out dominate the opposition all by himself. And unlike last year when he was asked to do it all, he is going to have plenty of offense around him in Irving, Love, Smith, Thompson and Frye. As someone else observed upthread, this may well be the equal of the OKC/GS series in terms of competitiveness and entertainment.
One thing about LeBron is that he should have a lot more energy this go-round than last year, when he basically had to will the Cavs into the finals. And when the Cavs roll out a line-up with Frye (shooting 58% from 3P this year), Irving, and Smith, there's so much room for LBJ to operate it's almost like he's playing 1 on 1.

One thing for certain. I cant quickly find the NBA playoff record for 3Ps made by two teams in one series but that record is about to be obliterated.
 

DJnVa

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Heard Windhorst on ESPN Radio--the pro-Cleveland story is that Cleveland can run out 11 players this year, and last year, Blatt trusted like 7 in the Finals. That means LBJ's minutes are down and his energy level (according to WIndhorst he's moving 1.5 mph faster this postseason than last) is up. The Cleveland trio that each went for 20+ only twice during the regular reason has done it 6 times this postseason.

The Cavs feel that this is exactly what they've been primed for.

We shall see.
 

Auger34

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Draymond hate steeps deep and strong in these parts.

They had another tangle later in the game where both went down. Again. Nobody cried. Bigs bang. Respect after the game.
I am not sure how you could watch that play and not come to the conclusion that that was an incredibly dirty play by Draymond. It wasn't a basketball move at all, he either wanted to injure Adams arm, throw him down or both. Combine that with hitting the same guy in the nuts twice and I think it's pretty fair to call him a dirty player at this point.
 

Devizier

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Now, now, folks. This isn't the time to fight over the Warriors.

It's the time for making inappropriate metaphors for how OKC's playoff run collapsed.

 

BigSoxFan

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Heard Windhorst on ESPN Radio--the pro-Cleveland story is that Cleveland can run out 11 players this year, and last year, Blatt trusted like 7 in the Finals. That means LBJ's minutes are down and his energy level (according to WIndhorst he's moving 1.5 mph faster this postseason than last) is up. The Cleveland trio that each went for 20+ only twice during the regular reason has done it 6 times this postseason.

The Cavs feel that this is exactly what they've been primed for.

We shall see.
Yup. Cavs fans have to be excited for the mere fact that they get to watch their full team take on the Warriors. They had no shot last year due to injuries but this year they have a reasonable chance if Love/Irving bring their A games. They certainly won't be playing the defense that OKC played, which was awesome for large periods of time in the WCF, but they'll be putting greater pressure on GS by having much better perimeter scoring. The Warriors could sag off Westbrook or Roberson on the perimeter. Can't do that against Irving or Smith.

I hope Tristan Thompson is ready for war down in the paint. He is going to be vital in getting Cleveland all the second chance opportunities that Adams was so good at this past series.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Now, now, folks. This isn't the time to fight over the Warriors.

It's the time for making inappropriate metaphors for how OKC's playoff run collapsed.

This is most definitely inappropriate yet the timing impeccable. Well played.
 

DannyDarwinism

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It'll be interesting to see what Silver does with Green. If Olynyk warranted a suspension for his arm bar on Love, consistency should dictate one for Green. Adams didn't get hurt like Love did, but Silver has already taken some heat for Green's previous non-suspension. I want to see these teams battle it out full strength, but Draymond's on thin ice. He thrives playing close to the line, but he's crossed it a couple of times recently. I'm a fan since his Spartan days, so I wasn't quite ready to see him take a full heel turn, which is why I was happy to see the post-game handshake and his comments. I get why people don't like him, but totally agree with DeJesus that he's a guy you love if he's wearing your team's laundry.
 

johnmd20

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It'll be interesting to see what Silver does with Green. If Olynyk warranted a suspension for his arm bar on Love, consistency should dictate one for Green. Adams didn't get hurt like Love did, but Silver has already taken some heat for Green's previous non-suspension. I want to see these teams battle it out full strength, but Draymond's on thin ice. He thrives playing close to the line, but he's crossed it a couple of times recently. I'm a fan since his Spartan days, so I wasn't quite ready to see him take a full heel turn, which is why I was happy to see the post-game handshake and his comments. I get why people don't like him, but totally agree with DeJesus that he's a guy you love if he's wearing your team's laundry.
It's really easy to be gracious after you've won. He deserves no awards for being nice during the handshake, as I would like to see how he would have been if they lost.

Green has really done some pretty horrible things this postseason. A judo takedown is beyond dirty and he should sit a game. He might, especially because he got a break with the cock kick.
 

reggiecleveland

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My thoughts on the discussions in this thread.

Green is dirty, and annoyingly to me, not tough dirty like the Bad Boys. He cried for fouls all through game six while missing layups. It is one thing to look for a physical edge out side the rules, but another to whine like a baby while doing so. He is an excellent player and none of this changes that assessment, but I can see why his antics turn people off.

Durant did play poorly at home with a chance to cement a legacy. He forced shots and messed up his team's rhythm. He is an elite player that wants to be on top. he fell short. Perhaps he is not quite good enough to take on Iggy, but he made the decision to try to win games that way and he failed. Knowing what I know about him, he would agree with criticism and own his mistakes. He made much better decisions in game 7 and almost brought them back. He suffers from being a bigger name than westbrook. When they win Westbrook was a breakout star and maybe it is his team, etc. When they lose KD didn't get it done. But he screwed up at the key point to win the series. as did Westbrook. They both went away from what had been working. The run, to me, has assured KD stays together with WB in OKC. They are not far away.

Lastly, I have said this several times. The Warriors will have little trouble with the Cavs. Toronto gave the Cavs fits when they moved the ball. I would not be surprised if the Warriors have some huge quarters, 40 points plus. (edit not 60)
 
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RedOctober3829

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My thoughts on the discussions in this thread.

Green is dirty, and annoyingly to me, not tough dirty like the Bad Boys. He cried for fouls all through game six while missing layups. It is one thing to look for a physical edge out side the rules, but another to whine like a baby while doing so. He is an excellent player and none of this changes that assessment, but I can see why his antics turn people off.

Durant did play poorly at home with a chance to cement a legacy. He forced shots and messed up his team's rhythm. He is an elite player that wants to be on top. he fell short. Perhaps he is not quite good enough to take on Iggy, but he made the decision to try to win games that way and he failed. Knowing what I know about him, he would agree with criticism and own his mistakes. He made much better decisions in game 7 and almost brought them back. He suffers from being a bigger name than westbrook. When they win Westbrook was a breakout star and maybe it is his team, etc. When they lose KD didn't get it done. But he screwed up at the key point to win the series. as did Westbrook. They both went away from what had been working. The run, to me, has assured KD stays together with WB in OKC. They are not far away.

Lastly, I have said this several times. The Warriors will have little trouble with the Cavs. Toronto gave the Cavs fits when they moved the ball. I would not be surprised if the Warriors have some huge quarters, 60 points plus.
60 point quarters?? Seriously??
 

DJnVa

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That's only 20 Marcus Smart 3-pointers.

EDIT: And since no team in NBA history has ever scored 60 points in one quarter ever, I believe he's engaging in some hyperbole.
 

coremiller

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Yup. Cavs fans have to be excited for the mere fact that they get to watch their full team take on the Warriors. They had no shot last year due to injuries but this year they have a reasonable chance if Love/Irving bring their A games. They certainly won't be playing the defense that OKC played, which was awesome for large periods of time in the WCF, but they'll be putting greater pressure on GS by having much better perimeter scoring. The Warriors could sag off Westbrook or Roberson on the perimeter. Can't do that against Irving or Smith.

I hope Tristan Thompson is ready for war down in the paint. He is going to be vital in getting Cleveland all the second chance opportunities that Adams was so good at this past series.
Last year in the Finals Cleveland was only able to slow down the Warriors by going big with Thompson and Mozgov and trapping all the Curry PNRs. That only worked because Green felt the pressure in Games 1-3 and played like crap, he was wasting all the 4-on-3s that resulted. Green is a much better and more confident offensive player now, and so the trap-Curry strategy won't work again. Last year Cleveland was also able to dominate the glass in the first 3-4 games, but the Warriors solved that by going small, which made the two-big lineup (Mozgov in particular) unplayable on defense. Cleveland absolutely cannot play their normal Love/Thompson lineup against the Warriors' small lineup. OKC could get away with Ibaka/Adams for stretches against the Warriors' small lineup because they are both super athletic and excellent defensive players, but even OKC ultimately gave up and Adams sat the last 6 minutes of Game 7 because Curry was dominating him on switches. But OKC could match up small because Ibaka/Durant/Roberson are all long, athletic defenders that allowed them to switch all the screens. Love at the 5 is no Ibaka, he's a defensive nightmare in that role. Cleveland will probably have to drop Love against the Small Lineup (we have to stop calling it the Death Lineup for a few games because they got smoked by OKC in games 3-4), but that means their offensive spacing will suffer with Thompson clogging up the lane. Cleveland also doesn't have great rim protection, nothing like OKC with the crazy length and speed of Durant/Ibaka/Adams. All those shots at the rim the Warriors were missing against OKC because they were bothered by OKC's length and recovery speed are going to start falling again.

Cleveland presents some matchup problems at the other end -- you can't stop LeBron, only slow him down, Irving can take most players off the dribble, Love can shoot over whoever is guarding him (probably Green). But Irving is no Westbrook, and by the end of the series the Warriors had mostly figured out how to keep Westbrook away from the rim and force him into tough shots. The Warriors will play small, switch everything to stay in front of people and stop easy drives and force Cleveland to score with jump shots. Cleveland will score decently doing that, and Thompson will get a lot of offensive rebounds, but not nearly enough to make up for what will happen on the other end.

Watch the highlights from when the teams played in Cleveland in January, when the Warriors ran them off the court and were up 36 at halftime. Cleveland probably won't play this badly again (at least not several times in one series), but all of their problems are on display here: inability to defend Curry PNRs, slow rotations/closeouts on open shooters, no rim protection. And yes it's the regular season, and some of the lineups have changed (Cleveland has a new coach, Mozgov doesn't start anymore, Varejao has switched sides), but it was a Finals rematch game on their home floor against a juggernaut on national TV that Cleveland should have been up for. They got waxed. Worth noting in this context that OKC, while they lost all 3 regular season games, played the Warriors very close every time, and as a Warriors fan I was more scared of that matchup than any other going in (I was a lot more worried about them than San Antonio).

 

mauf

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It's really easy to be gracious after you've won. He deserves no awards for being nice during the handshake, as I would like to see how he would have been if they lost.
It wasn't sportsmanship; it was enlightened self-interest. Whatever the current odds are of Silver suspending Green for Game 1 of the Finals, they'd be considerably higher if Green had been less than gracious after last night's game.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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But Irving is no Westbrook, and by the end of the series the Warriors had mostly figured out how to keep Westbrook away from the rim and force him into tough shots. The Warriors will play small, switch everything to stay in front of people and stop easy drives and force Cleveland to score with jump shots. Cleveland will score decently doing that, and Thompson will get a lot of offensive rebounds, but not nearly enough to make up for what will happen on the other end.
Good analysis and for sure it could happen exactly as you point out but one quibble: GSW stopped Westbrook and Durant from getting to the rim by packing the paint and seeing if Roberson, Waiters, Ibaka (et al.) could beat them from 3. And as D(J)BMH mentioned, the role players reverted to their norms and OKC was basically undone by math: i.e., they couldn't make their 2s at a high enough pace to offset the 3s that GSW were making.

This current incarnation of Cleveland will be the best shooting team that GSW has faced in the playoffs. Will that be enough? Probably not. But CLE does present some defensive problems with Irving, Love, Frye, Smith, and (maybe) Shumpert being able to shoot at a high percentage and LBJ having the ball in space. The question is whether they will be able to get enough stops.
BTW, here is one play that GSW is going to see a lot in Game 1 - http://www.sbnation.com/2016/5/26/11781600/cavaliers-lineup-lebron-james-channing-frye-breakdown-backup - when CLE has a lineup that has been pretty effective on the floor: LBJ, Frye, Jefferson, Shumpert and Smith/Dellanova. LBJ will set up on the right shoulder, Dellanova handling the ball and setting a back screen for Jefferson, and Frye in the opposite corner. The link goes through the available options.

Most of all, this should be an interesting coaching matchup.
 

Tangled Up In Red

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It wasn't sportsmanship; it was enlightened self-interest. Whatever the current odds are of Silver suspending Green for Game 1 of the Finals, they'd be considerably higher if Green had been less than gracious after last night's game.
He's soooo out of control (insert nut kick, mma arm bar, poor play game 3)...
Err, he's sooo in control he makes brilliant, evil genius strategic decisions within seconds of game 7 ending.
 

coremiller

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Good analysis and for sure it could happen exactly as you point out but one quibble: GSW stopped Westbrook and Durant from getting to the rim by packing the paint and seeing if Roberson, Waiters, Ibaka (et al.) could beat them from 3. And as D(J)BMH mentioned, the role players reverted to their norms and OKC was basically undone by math: i.e., they couldn't make their 2s at a high enough pace to offset the 3s that GSW were making.

This current incarnation of Cleveland will be the best shooting team that GSW has faced in the playoffs. Will that be enough? Probably not. But CLE does present some defensive problems with Irving, Love, Frye, Smith, and (maybe) Shumpert being able to shoot at a high percentage and LBJ having the ball in space. The question is whether they will be able to get enough stops.
BTW, here is one play that GSW is going to see a lot in Game 1 - http://www.sbnation.com/2016/5/26/11781600/cavaliers-lineup-lebron-james-channing-frye-breakdown-backup - when CLE has a lineup that has been pretty effective on the floor: LBJ, Frye, Jefferson, Shumpert and Smith/Dellanova. LBJ will set up on the right shoulder, Dellanova handling the ball and setting a back screen for Jefferson, and Frye in the opposite corner. The link goes through the available options.

Most of all, this should be an interesting coaching matchup.
This is good stuff, and it's been written in a couple of places that the Warriors are known to fear the Lebron + good defensive players lineups much more than the Love/Irving lineups. This raises a few issues though:

First, will Lue have the guts to bench Irving and Love for big minutes? Can their team dynamic handle it if Irving and Love are only playing 25 minutes and sitting in crunch time in favor of Frye and Dellavadova?

Second, one of the options out of that Cleveland set is "Dellavadova shoots a contested midrange floater." The Warriors will take away the lobs and open threes and give up that shot every time.

Third, Cleveland has been running super-hot on offense and, just like OKC, is probably due for regression. During the regular season, Frye shot 38% on 3s; he's at 58% in the playoffs. For Shumpert, it's 30% vs 48%; Smith is 40% vs. 46%; Irving is 32% vs. 46%; Jefferson is 38% vs. 46%; Love is 36% vs 45%. Now maybe their offense has gelled as they adjust to the new coach, and with playoff focus/intensity they are generating consistently better looks that translate into higher percentages. Or maybe they're just riding the heck out of positive variance.

Fourth, getting into a small-ball three-point shooting contest with the Warriors is just about the worst thing you can do. I think the optimal strategy is to do what the Thunder did and physically beat the crap out of them, force turnovers, get to the rim and pound them on the boards with super-athletic, rangy guys. It would have worked too if they hadn't blown the end of Game 6. But Cleveland doesn't have the horses to do what the Thunder did.
 

jablo1312

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This is good stuff, and it's been written in a couple of places that the Warriors are known to fear the Lebron + good defensive players lineups much more than the Love/Irving lineups. This raises a few issues though:

First, will Lue have the guts to bench Irving and Love for big minutes? Can their team dynamic handle it if Irving and Love are only playing 25 minutes and sitting in crunch time in favor of Frye and Dellavadova?

Second, one of the options out of that Cleveland set is "Dellavadova shoots a contested midrange floater." The Warriors will take away the lobs and open threes and give up that shot every time.

Third, Cleveland has been running super-hot on offense and, just like OKC, is probably due for regression. During the regular season, Frye shot 38% on 3s; he's at 58% in the playoffs. For Shumpert, it's 30% vs 48%; Smith is 40% vs. 46%; Irving is 32% vs. 46%; Jefferson is 38% vs. 46%; Love is 36% vs 45%. Now maybe their offense has gelled as they adjust to the new coach, and with playoff focus/intensity they are generating consistently better looks that translate into higher percentages. Or maybe they're just riding the heck out of positive variance.

Fourth, getting into a small-ball three-point shooting contest with the Warriors is just about the worst thing you can do. I think the optimal strategy is to do what the Thunder did and physically beat the crap out of them, force turnovers, get to the rim and pound them on the boards with super-athletic, rangy guys. It would have worked too if they hadn't blown the end of Game 6. But Cleveland doesn't have the horses to do what the Thunder did.
It does feel like this isn't a great series for Irving and Love. I like the idea of trying to stagger Irving's minutes opposite Curry's as much as possible (not that there is a ton of opportunity to do that), and maybe even using Irving as a spark plug/one man offense when LBJ and others are resting. JR is bigger, and better defensively, and I think bringing Irving off the bench/sitting him in key situations could be a +EV move Lue.

Love is tricky. He doesn't have the chops to hang defensively, but he's a dynamic scorer, and brings extra rebounding to the table (a skill which is reduced a bit in value when Thompson is on the court). Frye could very well be a better fit for the Cavs in this series, and might give the Cavs a chance to not get slaughtered by the Small Lineup.

Because if you're Lue, I think you need to focus on keeping the game within reach when that lineup plays (infinitely easier said then done) and taking advantage when Bogut or Speight is out there, or 2 of Steph/Klay/Draymond are resting. How you do that, I dunno. Slowing the game down, doing whatever you can to create free throw opportunities, Hack-A-Iguodala. Concede the 4-3 with Draymond, stay home on the shooters and just try to force misses at the rim or turnovers? It does seem like they need to counter that lineup with something like Shump/Smith/LBJ/Frye, and Jefferson or Thompson. Frye isn't a defensive maverick but he's better than Love at least. Thompson will thrown through infinite PnR's with Green if he's out there, but is Jefferson really a better option? You could also try something like putting LBJ on Green, and see if you can induce more PnR's with Iguodala or Barnes instead, then blitz the hell out of Curry and make either of those two make plays. You have to sacrifice something, and I'd rather have Barnes trying to make plays Draymond, or Steph raining threes.

I think the Cavs have enough to hang when the traditional lineups are out there. Thompson is a monster, and with LeBron and/or Love can create as many extra possessions as Adams did. This team can shoot the shit out of the ball, unlike the Thunder.
 
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Devizier

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I don't see the Cavaliers markedly changing their current (successful) playoff rotation, with the exception of cutting Jefferson's minutes in favor of full-time Lebron run.
 

Hagios

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Love is tricky. He doesn't have the chops to hang defensively, but he's a dynamic scorer, and brings extra rebounding to the table (a skill which is reduced a bit in value when Thompson is on the court). Frye could very well be a better fit for the Cavs in this series, and might give the Cavs a chance to not get slaughtered by the Small Lineup.
Love is a bad defender, but I'm not sure that it's because he lacks the chops. The knock on him is that he gives up on defensive positioning in order to pad his rebounds stat. But in the championships, he ought to be willing to sacrifice for the greater glory (I think). In some ways, this could be one of the key factors in the series.
 

jon abbey

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This Zach Lowe piece about CLE from last week is essential reading for anyone who hasn't:

"But Irving and Love have been the central players in Cleveland's worst breakdowns. Opponents in the playoffs have scored 1.09 points per chance when they involve those two as the primary pick-and-roll defenders in a play that leads directly to a shot attempt, drawn foul or turnover, per SportVU data provided to ESPN.com. That would have ranked last by a mile among 119 two-man combos that defended at least 250 pick-and-rolls in the regular season, per that SportVU data set."

"Opponents know this stuff. They are putting Irving and Love into twice as many pick-and-rolls each game as they averaged in the regular-season, a massive jump out of proportion to the slight uptick in minutes the two are playing together. These are the sort of numbers that had members of the Golden State Warriors' coaching staff quietly fretting when both Love and Irving missed last year's NBA Finals, forcing the Cavs to play superior defenders in their place."

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/15700317/toronto-exposed-cavaliers-weakest-link
 

HomeRunBaker

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Love is a bad defender, but I'm not sure that it's because he lacks the chops. The knock on him is that he gives up on defensive positioning in order to pad his rebounds stat. But in the championships, he ought to be willing to sacrifice for the greater glory (I think). In some ways, this could be one of the key factors in the series.
The padding of stats was always a bunch of crap. Love's primary defensive issue is the same as many NBA players who are poor defenders in that he lacks lateral agility which places him out of position frequently.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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That video breakdown of Love and Irving that jon abbey linked to is pretty damning. If Lue doesn't adjust for this series, the Warriors are going to present massive problems when they run PnRs.
 

DJnVa

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It seems a lot of the pro-Cleveland talk simply centers on that they went 6 games last year without Kyrie and Love and say what you want about them defending PnRs, they're still better than what Cleveland ran out there last year.

Mind you I don't necessarily agree with that.
 

johnmd20

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It seems a lot of the pro-Cleveland talk simply centers on that they went 6 games last year without Kyrie and Love and say what you want about them defending PnRs, they're still better than what Cleveland ran out there last year.
I think the odds were much steeper against Cleveland heading in the finals last year. But the reality is Cleveland needs a lot of things to go right for them to win this. If nothing goes right, they are going to get killed. If Love and Smith shoot lights out,(not impossible) they can stay in some games. If Thompson crushes the offensive glass like he's been doing, it'll extend possessions. And Lebron is the X factor here. He's much more rested this year than last year and he did fall apart late in Game 5 and 6 last year. So that is a point in their favor. These playoffs, Lebron has not had to play a lot of 4th quarters and he hasn't played in a game for almost a full week. For a guy with the miles piling up, that will help him last.
 

teddykgb

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The Pro-Cleveland argument is that Lebron James is a physical freak who the refs protect. He pushes off with his off arm, barrels into everyone with his size, travels and then gets the foul call. He's also incredibly gifted and to his credit makes plays at both ends of the floor. Golden State operates an offense with a high degree of difficulty because they are so 3 reliant. They have incredible shooters who bring that difficulty down considerably but a couple nights of mere mortal shooting combined with James doing his thing is reason enough to think Cleveland can win this. I'd be really surprised if this isn't a long series with a bunch of games that barely resemble each other.

Golden States PnR is a hell of a problem for Cleveland but they've won a ton of games while crappily defending the PnR. Cavs are a very good team with the hardest player to guard on the planet.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Here are some statistics to look at for the finals: http://hangtime.blogs.nba.com/2016/05/31/numbers-preview-2016-nba-finals-golden-state-warriors-cleveland-cavaliers/. Of note:

GSW:
  • Have been the best fourth-quarter team in the playoffs, having outscored their opponents by 16.4 points per 100 possessions in the fourth.
  • Have recorded assists on 62.0 percent of their baskets, the highest rate in the playoffs. They also lead the postseason with 7.9 secondary assists per game. After averaging 336.9 passes per game through the first two rounds, they averaged only 310.3 against Oklahoma City, but that still led the conference finals by a wide margin.
  • Are a plus-117 in 639 minutes with Draymond Green on the floor and a minus-8 in 182 minutes with him on the bench. Green has contested 271 total shots, most in the postseason, and opponents have shot 38.1 percent at the rim when Green has been there to protect it, which ranks as the fourth best rim protection number among players who have defended at least 5.0 shots per game at the rim (best among those still playing).
  • The Warriors’ “Death Lineup” – Curry, Thompson, Andre Iguodala, Harrison Barnes and Green – was a minus-41 in 19 minutes in Games 3 and 4 of the conference finals, but is a plus-40 in its other 53 postseason minutes.
CLE:
  • The last team that was as efficient offensively through the conference finals was the 1986-87 Lakers, who scored 117.8 points per 100 possessions over the first three rounds.
  • Offensive efficiency has gone down with each quarter, from 123.3 points per 100 possessions in the first to 106.5 in the fourth. But their defense has improved with each quarter, from 110.4 points allowed per 100 possessions in the first to just 94.2 in the fourth. They have a NetRtg of plus-12.3 points per 100 possessions or better in all four periods.
  • J.R. Smith (46.2 percent), Irving (45.6 percent) and Love (44.6 percent) rank first, second and fifth in 3-point percentage among 21 players who have attempted at least 50 threes in the playoffs. Channing Frye (26-for-45, 57.8 percent) would rank first with five more attempts and his effective field goal percentage of 81.8 percent is the best mark among 86 players who have attempted at least 50 shots in the playoffs.
  • Starting lineup has outscored opponents by 21.4 points per 100 possessions, the best mark among five-man units that have played at least 100 minutes. Bench unit of Matthew Dellavedova, Iman Shumpert, Richard Jefferson, James and Frye has outscored opponents by 46.6 points per 100 possessions, the best mark among five-man units that have played at least 50 minutes.
  • Tristan Thompson has grabbed 17.7 percent of available offensive rebounds while he’s been on the floor, the best offensive rebounding percentage in the playoffs.
  • According to SportVU, the Cavs have scored 1.31 points per possession when Thompson has set a ball screen for Irving, the best mark among 43 combinations that have run at least 50 ball screens. Irving/Love ranks third at 1.26 points per possession.
  • Opponents have shot 65.2 percent at the rim when Love has been there to protect it. That ranks as the worst rim protection number among players who have defended at least 5.0 shots per game at the rim.
 

Tangled Up In Red

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Interesting notes on today's Examiner:

LEAGUE OF ITS OWN: After what took place in Game 7 of the Western Conference finals, who knows what the NBA is fixin’ to do in its showcase event.

Referee Scott Foster had been scheduled to work the game, but he was bumped in favor Danny Crawford even though rotations rarely change in the postseason. That Crawford was the better referee might have prompted the move. Yet critics pointed out that the Warriors were far less effective when Foster was present, which raised suspicions about whether the higher-ups had a specific outcome in mind. In the last two seasons, the Warriors have a 4-4 record and minus 2.0 points differential with Foster compared to 22-5 and plus-9.5 without him.

Then again, this kind of thing has gone on in the league for years. Nobody scared Michael Jordan and his epic Chicago Bulls teams like referee Hue Hollins, who showed up a lot when they were comfortably ahead in series. Balls (article author) repeatedly asked then league operations chief Rod Thorn about the process, only to be told that it was a private matter each time.
 

johnmd20

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It would be surprising to see the NBA willfully give GS the edge, considering they already have the edge going into the series. Wouldn't they want to go the other way and give the Cavs the best chance to extend it to 6 or 7 games? If there was a Game 7, the ratings would be off the charts.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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I am setting the over under for references about Draymond Green being a dirty, no-good, filthy, player at 10. That is for this game alone.

At some point, there will be lots and lots of sympathy here for Kevin Love, Tristan Thompson and even Matthew Dellavdova after Green kicks and mauls them as he auditions to become the next big heel for the WWE.
 

johnmd20

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I am setting the over under for references about Draymond Green being a dirty, no-good, filthy, player at 10. That is for this game alone.

At some point, there will be lots and lots of sympathy here for Kevin Love, Tristan Thompson and even Matthew Dellavdova after Green kicks and mauls them as he auditions to become the next big heel for the WWE.
Well, he is a dirty, no good, filthy player. So I would take the over, too.
 

BigSoxFan

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I am setting the over under for references about Draymond Green being a dirty, no-good, filthy, player at 10. That is for this game alone.

At some point, there will be lots and lots of sympathy here for Kevin Love, Tristan Thompson and even Matthew Dellavdova after Green kicks and mauls them as he auditions to become the next big heel for the WWE.
Are you really pre-emptively whining about this? Best to let it go. Peoples' opinions on Draymond aren't changing.
 

Tangled Up In Red

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It would be surprising to see the NBA willfully give GS the edge, considering they already have the edge going into the series. Wouldn't they want to go the other way and give the Cavs the best chance to extend it to 6 or 7 games? If there was a Game 7, the ratings would be off the charts.
I don't see this as then giving the Warriors an edge, as much as acknowledging certain refs don't officiate certain teams fairly.

But that's probably way too rational for the Association.