General Playoff Thread: The Long 2nd Season

[DeJesus Built My Hotrod]

LeBron James is my GOAT and I have seen MJ and Magic and Shaq and Bird all play.

Like those guys, he is not without flaws but the measure of the man is that in his conference, every team that has had him on its roster has made the Finals over the past six years. And many of those rosters were questionable .500 teams, let alone Championship contenders, sans James. Except for his run in Miami, he has never had the kind of complimentary players it takes to win a championship and the past two years he has played a team that features not only multiple all-star caliber starters but a bench that featured guys who could start for a lot of teams across the association, including other contenders.

Regarding the attitude tonight, if you are turned off by lawyering the refs, flopping and frustration bubbling to the surface during a competitive game, I don't know what to say. This is the modern day NBA and this sort of stuff is not only common but usually taken to a higher art form by the better teams. Was LeBron frustrated tonight - fuck yeah he was. The Warriors were being more physical with him than teams normally play him and they got away with it. Green - and I completely get why many people don't like him - was all over him, all the while talking shit and getting into his head (last time I saw a player get to LeBron like that was when Pierce was in his prime). The point is, when you are being beaten physically, mentally and on the scoreboard and you are a competitor, you are going to get frustrated. Guys like LeBron wouldn't be here without that mentality.

You can disagree on where LeBron ranks, tell me player x or y would never lose games on their own floor or something and that is fine. This guy is a transformative talent who takes a middling team and makes it a contender. If that isn't greatness, I don't know what is.

 

[riboflav]

Just got off the phone with a D-2 college coach friend of mine and he said to me when MJ got less twitchy, his jump shot became lethal and you never saw the deer-in-headlights look you get from LBJ from time to time like tonight.

 

[tbrep]

I think you have to look at the context in which he's made the Finals. He couldn't make it until he joined Bosh and Wade in Miami (2007 aside in which he was otherworldly). And since coming back to Cleveland, he's had no competition in the East. At all.

Lebron is definitely top 10 in my book, perhaps top 5, but him as the GOAT is ridiculous. You can't melt down like he did in 2011 on the games biggest stage and be called the GOAT.

 

[HomeRunBaker]

I know we're not allowed to talk about this on SoSH but it's over for LBJ. Two titles to his name. Not good enough to get on Mt. Rushmore. Came up real small tonight; so passive.

Yeah that 24/13/9 he put up was clearly the Cavs problem tonight.

Just got off the phone with a D-2 college coach friend of mine and he said to me when MJ got less twitchy, his jump shot became lethal and you never saw the deer-in-headlights look you get from LBJ from time to time like tonight.

Of course MJ had Pippen to lean on defensively as well as offensively.....LeBron has Love who singlehandedly destroys most halfcourt defensive sets. I love MJ but if LeBron was in his shoes and had a 1-8 career playoff record without Pippen next to him can you imagine the criticism he'd face?

 

[The Price Is Wrong]

I agree. He's one of the greatest players in NBA history and, I think, an okay guy

LeBron, from what we can tell at a distance, is a first-rate human being. But on the court, he acts like a little bitch at a rate far beneath the dignity of someone of his skills and stature in the game.

I kinda regard him as basketball's Derek Jeter. Predisposed to dislike him because of hype and ESPN, Jeter seemed like the kind of guy you want your sports heroes to be off the field, staying out of trouble (gift basket jokes aside), saying the right thing, seemingly being a good teammate. But everything from his ass-poke at inside fastballs to his overdramatized, counterproductive "look at me!" leaping throws, made me thoroughly annoyed by what kind of player he was. Like Brad Marchand, I'd probably love Jeter or LeBron or Neymar as long as they were on my team, but I can easily see how the rest of the league would find him/them obnoxious little dicks.

Now obviously, "on-court demeanor and antics" ranks a distant third in priority behind "be a hugely talented, valuable player" and "be a good person". But it definitely affects what kind of fan support and following a player can command beyond their own team's fanbase. I wouldn't mind seeing him win a title for Cleveland, but only for the sake of Cleveland, not for the greater glory of LeBron James.

 

[riboflav]

LeBron James is my GOAT and I have seen MJ and Magic and Shaq and Bird all play.

Like those guys, he is not without flaws but the measure of the man is that in his conference, every team that has had him on its roster has made the Finals over the past six years. And many of those rosters were questionable .500 teams, let alone Championship contenders, sans James. Except for his run in Miami, he has never had the kind of complimentary players it takes to win a championship and the past two years he has played a team that features not only multiple all-star caliber starters but a bench that featured guys who could start for a lot of teams across the association, including other contenders.

Regarding the attitude tonight, if you are turned off by lawyering the refs, flopping and frustration bubbling to the surface during a competitive game, I don't know what to say. This is the modern day NBA and this sort of stuff is not only common but usually taken to a higher art form by the better teams. Was LeBron frustrated tonight - fuck yeah he was. The Warriors were being more physical with him than teams normally play him and they got away with it. Green - and I completely get why many people don't like him - was all over him, all the while talking shit and getting into his head (last time I saw a player get to LeBron like that was when Pierce was in his prime). The point is, when you are being beaten physically, mentally and on the scoreboard and you are a competitor, you are going to get frustrated. Guys like LeBron wouldn't be here without that mentality.

You can disagree on where LeBron ranks, tell me player x or y would never lose games on their own floor or something and that is fine. This guy is a transformative talent who takes a middling team and makes it a contender. If that isn't greatness, I don't know what is.

Ok. Handle is average to below average, jump shot is subpar for a SF outside of a couple years, post-up is great now but was almost non-existent for years, no definitive go-to move outside of being on the break, MJ had virtually no talent around him as well (Pippen? Please!)... He is a superb freak of an athlete. A TE or LB playing basketball with the ability to pass (Bird is the best SF passer of all time but James is second... seriously, Bird might just lead the NBA in assists in this era). James came into the NBA at the right time. Ahead of the curve. But now that he's going up against other teams that are out of the box and play positionless basketball, he is what he is. Best NBA athlete.

 

[jon abbey]

The biggest flaw in LeBron's resume is as a GM, I wish so badly we could know how the Cavs would have done against GS with Wiggins instead of Love in these past two Finals (assuming they'd get there without Love, I feel confident in that assumption personally).

 

[riboflav]

Yeah that 24/13/9 he put up was clearly the Cavs problem tonight.

Of course MJ had Pippen to lean on defensively as well as offensively.....LeBron has Love who singlehandedly destroys most halfcourt defensive sets. I love MJ but if LeBron was in his shoes and had a 1-8 career playoff record without Pippen next to him can you imagine the criticism he'd face?

You do realize when those stats were put up. I assume you gave Curry credit for his little flourish late on Wed. night? Whatever. I'm saying James is awesome but not best of all time. Not a big deal.

 

[The Social Chair]

MJ had virtually no talent around him as well (Pippen? Please!)... .

Is this hot sports take satire?

 

[riboflav]

Is this hot sports take satire?

yes

 

[BigSoxFan]

The biggest flaw in LeBron's resume is as a GM, I wish so badly we could know how the Cavs would have done against GS with Wiggins instead of Love in these past two Finals (assuming they'd get there without Love, I feel confident in that assumption personally).

I don't think Wiggins changes much at all. Too young. But I would love to know what other options were out there for him. I can only imagine that the Cavs passed on some pretty good deals.

 

[luckiestman]

Ok. Handle is average to below average, jump shot is subpar for a SF outside of a couple years, post-up is great now but was almost non-existent for years, no definitive go-to move outside of being on the break, MJ had virtually no talent around him as well (Pippen? Please!)... He is a superb freak of an athlete. A TE or LB playing basketball with the ability to pass (Bird is the best SF passer of all time but James is second... seriously, Bird might just lead the NBA in assists in this era). James came into the NBA at the right time. Ahead of the curve. But now that he's going up against other teams that are out of the box and play positionless basketball, he is what he is. Best NBA athlete.

After Jordan got his father killed and took the year off, the Bulls won 55 fucking games and Scottie was first team both ways (I think). They could have won that year too.

 

[DeJesus Built My Hotrod]

Ok. Handle is average to below average, jump shot is subpar for a SF outside of a couple years, post-up is great now but was almost non-existent for years, no definitive go-to move outside of being on the break, MJ had virtually no talent around him as well (Pippen? Please!)... He is a superb freak of an athlete. A TE or LB playing basketball with the ability to pass (Bird is the best SF passer of all time but James is second... seriously, Bird might just lead the NBA in assists in this era). James came into the NBA at the right time. Ahead of the curve. But now that he's going up against other teams that are out of the box and play positionless basketball, he is what he is. Best NBA athlete.

Your critique of him is of his current, decline phase. And MJ didn't win until he had a better supporting cast - virtually nobody disputes this. Do you really think Pippen wasn't talented? Or did I misunderstand you?

When LeBron was at his peak, singlehandedly dragged dreck to the brink of a championship. The Championship Bulls teams had a very good supporting cast (Pippen, Paxson, Grant, Armstrong and Hodges, then guys like Kukoc, Kerr and Longley on the post-baseball run) but aside from Kyrie and maybe Tristan Thompson, who on this Cavs team is even a starter elsewhere? Last year's roster was even thinner and they won two games!

We can agree to disagree but peak LeBron as well as post-peak LeBron is a transformative talent who has done more with less, in tougher league in terms of the balance of talent across the NBA, than any other player before him.

 

[Kliq]

I don't dislike LeBron because people consider him great. He's the best player of his generation and probably one of the 8 or so best ever. I mean he isn't the best and anyone who thinks that should reexamine the turd he laid in the Mavs series. The Jordan comparisons from the media hurt him because he was never Jordan, really he was the next Magic with a cross of Dr. J.

 

[Kliq]

Also, watching the reverse angle of the Green/LeBron confrontation, it's incredibly clear that Green tried to sacktap James. Of course, the league will do nothing about it.

 

[wade boggs chicken dinner]

I don't think Wiggins changes much at all. Too young. But I would love to know what other options were out there for him. I can only imagine that the Cavs passed on some pretty good deals.

I dunno. Assuming Wiggins plays in the final, I think CLE has a good answer for GSW's death lineup last year. And no one was really scoring for CLE so it still would have been the LBJ show - at least Wiggins could have generated steals and transition baskets and more importantly helped to save LBJ on the defensive end. And maybe Bennett plays some decent defensive and rebounding minutes as the 4th guy off the bench.

Plus, given the lack of talent in the East, CLE would have been in the driver's seat for years.

 

[johnmd20]

I don't dislike LeBron because people consider him great. He's the best player of his generation and probably one of the 8 or so best ever. I mean he isn't the best and anyone who thinks that should reexamine the turd he laid in the Mavs series. The Jordan comparisons from the media hurt him because he was never Jordan, really he was the next Magic with a cross of Dr. J.

He's top 3 of all time, maybe the best ever. Top 8 is an insult to what Lebron has done in over a decade of basketball. Top 5 in MVP voting every year since the 2005 season. He's won it four times. That is absolutely an insane run. He's been to the finals 6 consecutive years and he's losing to an all time great team this year, which is nothing to gripe about.

People don't understand basketball if they don't understand how good Lebron is. "laid a turd in the Mavs series". Like a player can't have an off day? Tom Brady is the best QB in history. Has he never laid a turd?

edit - to add, Jordan had ten top 5 MVP finishes. Lebron has 11 already, all in a row. But Lebron played a lousy series against the Mavs. He sucks.

 

[tbrep]

People don't understand basketball if they don't understand how good Lebron is. "laid a turd in the Mavs series". Like a player can't have an off day? Tom Brady is the best QB in history. Has he never laid a turd?

It wasn't so much as having a bad game, which you can't knock a guy for too much (Jordan shot 3-18 in an NBA Finals game, Kobe went 6-24 in the biggest game of his career). It was more than a bad game in the 2011 NBA Finals, he flat out choked. By his own admission, he got tight and just could not execute in the fourth quarter. To his credit, he worked through the mental aspects of his game and added a phenomenal post game to his repertoire over the 2011-12 season.

I think there's an argument for peak Lebron (2012-14) being the greatest player of all time. He shot the 3 well, had a phenomenal post game and still had the athleticism to get to the rim at will. And he probably has 2 of the top 5 all-time great playoff performances with his Game 5 ECF performance against the Pistons in 2007 and Game 6 2012 ECF. But Lebron only had the complete package for a portion of his career. Early on, he had the crazy athleticism but not the post game. And more recently, he's lost the jumper noticeably.

Put him in the West the last 3 years and he doesn't make the Finals in any of those years (and maybe not even the WCF depending on how the seeding shakes out). You can't ignore the complete lack of elite competition in the East when viewing his incredible run.

 

[johnmd20]

It wasn't so much as having a bad game, which you can't knock a guy for too much (Jordan shot 3-18 in an NBA Finals game, Kobe went 6-24 in the biggest game of his career). It was more than a bad game in the 2011 NBA Finals, he flat out choked. By his own admission, he got tight and just could not execute in the fourth quarter. To his credit, he worked through the mental aspects of his game and added a phenomenal post game to his repertoire over the 2011-12 season.

I think there's an argument for peak Lebron (2012-14) being the greatest player of all time. He shot the 3 well, had a phenomenal post game and still had the athleticism to get to the rim at will. And he probably has 2 of the top 5 all-time great playoff performances with his Game 5 ECF performance against the Pistons in 2007 and Game 6 2012 ECF. But Lebron only had the complete package for a portion of his career. Early on, he had the crazy athleticism but not the post game. And more recently, he's lost the jumper noticeably.

Put him in the West the last 3 years and he doesn't make the Finals in any of those years (and maybe not even the WCF depending on how the seeding shakes out). You can't ignore the complete lack of elite competition in the East when viewing his incredible run.

11 straight years in the Top 5 for MVP voting. That has nothing to do with the east or the west. That is almost, but not quite, unprecedented. Lebron is right, y'all are spoiled by his play.

And put Lebron on any of those teams in the west and it's Lebron's team who is in the finals. I really am having a hard time finding fault when Lebron is facing the best team in the history of the NBA. It's just bad luck that Golden State has become this behemoth right when Lebron went back to Cleveland. And this Cleveland team is really good but their matchup with GS is just awful for them on both sides.

In 20 years this won't be a conversation. People will remember Lebron solely for being a force of nature for well over a decade and one of the best players in the history of the sport. Not Top 8. Top 2. Kind of like how today, Michael Jordan never missed an important shot and he had no help around him while dragging corpses (hall of fame players are corpses after time passes) to the NBA championship every year.

 

[Ed Hillel]

Also, watching the reverse angle of the Green/LeBron confrontation, it's incredibly clear that Green tried to sacktap James. Of course, the league will do nothing about it.

I wonder if this gets enough play that it's upgraded to a flagrant and a suspension, given Green's issues this postseason and that it's 3-1 Golden State. It was clearly a bullshit play from Green...yet again.

 

[jon abbey]

Put him in the West the last 3 years and he doesn't make the Finals in any of those years (and maybe not even the WCF depending on how the seeding shakes out). You can't ignore the complete lack of elite competition in the East when viewing his incredible run.

I love LeBron and I've rooted for him for most of his career (not this series), but this is absolutely true.

 

[HomeRunBaker]

I wonder if this gets enough play that it's upgraded to a flagrant and a suspension, given Green's issues this postseason and that it's 3-1 Golden State. It was clearly a bullshit play from Green...yet again.

Green once again began the whole fracas be trying to bridge LeBron which isn't getting any play at all. It wasn't two guys tangling or whatever.....Green was the instigator and the dirty player even before the nut punch.

 

[riboflav]

Cleveland already sounds defeated. Love is whining that the media and fans are unfair to him. That his head really hurts. James is complaining that Green said something not nice to him. Lue is whining that the refs never give James a break.

 

[DeJesus Built My Hotrod]

Also, watching the reverse angle of the Green/LeBron confrontation, it's incredibly clear that Green tried to sacktap James. Of course, the league will do nothing about it.

Wow, your anatomy is quite different than mine. Typically one's sack is down between their legs...unless you mean elbow sack.

And you guys can stop with your moralizing shown by one sequence with one play that ABC just happens to show. These guys are literally all beating and manhandling (and bridging) each other on virtually every sequence and you and HRB know this. Curry is being grabbed, held, kneed and the guys guarding him are torquing his arms when the lock him up. Meanwhile, LeBron is getting murdered by Iguodala, elbowed in the sternum by Barnes etc. This is NBA playoff basketball - not some rec league where gentlemen honor the touch foul calls. This is what drives up up the wall about the Green stuff in the last series - you guys see one or two sequences and assume that Adams was not being over the line physical with Green when that is the more likely scenario.

Green definitely toes the line more than others but this righteousness around what is clean and dirty is laughable. At this point in the season, these guys are going all out.

 

[Koufax]

Wow, your anatomy is quite different than mine. Typically one's sack is down between their legs...unless you mean elbow sack.

Look again. He slapped twice - once down low and once up near the elbow. He didn't have a good angle for the groin but that was the elevation of the first slap.

 

[Dahabenzapple2]

Not that it would have mattered but James & Irving MUST be given rest in the 3rd quarter. MUST.

Why they had 11 points in the 4th quarter when I went to sleep.

 

[Kliq]

Wow, your anatomy is quite different than mine. Typically one's sack is down between their legs...unless you mean elbow sack.

And you guys can stop with your moralizing shown by one sequence with one play that ABC just happens to show. These guys are literally all beating and manhandling (and bridging) each other on virtually every sequence and you and HRB know this. Curry is being grabbed, held, kneed and the guys guarding him are torquing his arms when the lock him up. Meanwhile, LeBron is getting murdered by Iguodala, elbowed in the sternum by Barnes etc. This is NBA playoff basketball - not some rec league where gentlemen honor the touch foul calls. This is what drives up up the wall about the Green stuff in the last series - you guys see one or two sequences and assume that Adams was not being over the line physical with Green when that is the more likely scenario.

Green definitely toes the line more than others but this righteousness around what is clean and dirty is laughable. At this point in the season, these guys are going all out.

I know you are, but you can't actually be serious.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Here&#39;s another angle of Draymond Green hitting LeBron James in the crotch <a href="https://t.co/o5aad55rHF">pic.twitter.com/o5aad55rHF</a></p>&mdash; Kenny Ducey (@KennyDucey) <a href="">June 11, 2016</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

[DeJesus Built My Hotrod]

I know you are, but you can't actually be serious.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Here&#39;s another angle of Draymond Green hitting LeBron James in the crotch <a href="https://t.co/o5aad55rHF">pic.twitter.com/o5aad55rHF</a></p>&mdash; Kenny Ducey (@KennyDucey) <a href="">June 11, 2016</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Hadn't seen that angle. Still don't think it was all that bad - LeBron was clearly trying to send a message with his step-over too which is entirely fair. However I admit my tolerance for what is "dirty" and what isn't is a bit different than many others in this forum. I know you've played organized ball and they probably don't let that stuff go and I am just a street ball hack (at best) but shit like that would go on all the time. Guys might exchange words and move on.

I still submit that, at its highest levels of competition, the NBA isn't a gentleman's game and that the teams that win are the ones who aren't afraid to use their physicality against the other teams both in terms of plays as well as getting into their heads. Green clearly got LeBron flustered last night and it hurt the Cavs.

Edit: And while Draymond clearly took a swipe at LeBron, he did not hit him in his crotch. Methinks Kenny Ducey is trying to generate some eyeballs on his twitter account.

 

[Kliq]

He's top 3 of all time, maybe the best ever. Top 8 is an insult to what Lebron has done in over a decade of basketball. Top 5 in MVP voting every year since the 2005 season. He's won it four times. That is absolutely an insane run. He's been to the finals 6 consecutive years and he's losing to an all time great team this year, which is nothing to gripe about.

People don't understand basketball if they don't understand how good Lebron is. "laid a turd in the Mavs series". Like a player can't have an off day? Tom Brady is the best QB in history. Has he never laid a turd?

edit - to add, Jordan had ten top 5 MVP finishes. Lebron has 11 already, all in a row. But Lebron played a lousy series against the Mavs. He sucks.

These things are all subjective but I completely disagree. I suppose at times in his career LeBron has been one of the three most talented players to play the game. But to rank him that high is ridiculous. He didn't just play one bad game in the Mavs series, he was horrible for the entirety of it, averaging 17.8 ppg. including a hideous Game 4 where he scored 8 points on 3-11 shooting. And this wasn't young, deer-in-the-headlights LeBron, this was right in the middle of his prime. Do you think Jordan would have ever in a million years had a finals performance that bad in his prime? What about Russell or Kareem or Bird or West or Magic or Duncan?

The consecutive trips to the finals don't really impress me all that much. The best teams James' has played in route to the finals since he west to Miami have been an aging Celtics team, a Pacers team that flamed out quickly, a Hawks team that wildly overachieved and this year's Raptors squad. I can't think of a great team (or in this case pair of teams) who have made it to several consecutive NBA finals that had an easier path. The 80s Celtics made four straight trips to the NBA finals and needed to get by the Bucks (forgotten but a very good team) twice, the 76ers and Pistons (both of whom were/would become NBA champions with their same cores). Isn't that more impressive than LeBron making it six times? Wouldn't any of those teams crush the teams the Heat/Cavs beat? In addition, it has been proven that LeBron's teams for the most part have not even been the second best team in the league during their finals appearances. Pretty much all four of his losses (assuming this series is over) have not been particularly close. The Warriors were more challenged by OKC this year and Houston the year before that and San Antonio was more challenged by OKC the year they beat Miami. Making the finals six years in a row is a great accomplishment; but it's a bit overblown when you really think about it.

 

[Kliq]

Hadn't seen that angle. Still don't think it was all that bad - LeBron was clearly trying to send a message with his step-over too which is entirely fair. However I admit my tolerance for what is "dirty" and what isn't is a bit different than many others in this forum. I know you've played organized ball and they probably don't let that stuff go and I am just a street ball hack (at best) but shit like that would go on all the time. Guys might exchange words and move on.

I still submit that, at its highest levels of competition, the NBA isn't a gentleman's game and that the teams that win are the ones who aren't afraid to use their physicality against the other teams both in terms of plays as well as getting into their heads. Green clearly got LeBron flustered last night and it hurt the Cavs.

Edit: And while Draymond clearly took a swipe at LeBron, he did not hit him in his crotch. Methinks Kenny Ducey is trying to generate some eyeballs on his twitter account.

So if we ever play ball together it's okay to hit you in the balls, got it.

I don't have a problem with LeBron stepping over Green. If Green wants to flop on the ground like a fish LeBron has every right to step over him and try to get back into the play.

 

[DeJesus Built My Hotrod]

So if we ever play ball together it's okay to hit you in the balls, got it.

I don't have a problem with LeBron stepping over Green. If Green wants to flop on the ground like a fish LeBron has every right to step over him and try to get back into the play.

He didn't hit him in his balls. He definitely attempted in that direction and hit the back of LeBron's shorts. Intent yes, execution no. And LeBron was giving it as good as he was getting it at the start of their entanglement. He is one of the most physical players in the NBA and given his size and strength, its entirely fair.

And yes in our hypothetical game, if you want to try and hit me in the balls, fine. Its happened and it got settled one way or another.

 

[BigSoxFan]

So if we ever play ball together it's okay to hit you in the balls, got it.

I don't have a problem with LeBron stepping over Green. If Green wants to flop on the ground like a fish LeBron has every right to step over him and try to get back into the play.

Apparently Dejesus plays a bunch of pickup games where nut shots are acceptable. Interesting. We've all played pickup and organized hoops. That play would not be acceptable in any setting.

I would have liked to see Draymond simply point to the scoreboard. The Warriors are about to take 2 straight NBA Finals from LeBron. Show your swagger that way, not via Bill Laimbeer or Rick Mahorn BS. I hated when KG pulled that garbage. Elite players don't need to resort to that stuff.

 

[coremiller]

These things are all subjective but I completely disagree. I suppose at times in his career LeBron has been one of the three most talented players to play the game. But to rank him that high is ridiculous. He didn't just play one bad game in the Mavs series, he was horrible for the entirety of it, averaging 17.8 ppg. including a hideous Game 4 where he scored 8 points on 3-11 shooting. And this wasn't young, deer-in-the-headlights LeBron, this was right in the middle of his prime. Do you think Jordan would have ever in a million years had a finals performance that bad in his prime? What about Russell or Kareem or Bird or West or Magic or Duncan?

The consecutive trips to the finals don't really impress me all that much. The best teams James' has played in route to the finals since he west to Miami have been an aging Celtics team, a Pacers team that flamed out quickly, a Hawks team that wildly overachieved and this year's Raptors squad. I can't think of a great team (or in this case pair of teams) who have made it to several consecutive NBA finals that had an easier path. The 80s Celtics made four straight trips to the NBA finals and needed to get by the Bucks (forgotten but a very good team) twice, the 76ers and Pistons (both of whom were/would become NBA champions with their same cores). Isn't that more impressive than LeBron making it six times? Wouldn't any of those teams crush the teams the Heat/Cavs beat? In addition, it has been proven that LeBron's teams for the most part have not even been the second best team in the league during their finals appearances. Pretty much all four of his losses (assuming this series is over) have not been particularly close. The Warriors were more challenged by OKC this year and Houston the year before that and San Antonio was more challenged by OKC the year they beat Miami. Making the finals six years in a row is a great accomplishment; but it's a bit overblown when you really think about it.

Well Magic did choke pretty badly in the 84 Finals (dribbling out the clock in Game 2, a late turnover that allowed the Celtics to tie the game and then missing key free throws in Game 4). Kareem got outplayed by Walton in the 77 playoffs and multiple times by Moses Malone (81 against the Rockets, 83 against the 76ers).

 

[Kliq]

Well Magic did choke pretty badly in the 84 Finals (dribbling out the clock in Game 2, a late turnover that allowed the Celtics to tie the game and then missing key free throws in Game 4). Kareem got outplayed by Walton in the 77 playoffs and multiple times by Moses Malone (81 against the Rockets, 83 against the 76ers).

Bad game yes, getting outplayed by a great player, acceptable. LeBron no showed an entire Finals, a finals that should have been one that he dominated, unless Shawn Marion is better than we all thought.

 

[Tangled Up In Red]

The exaggerated step/stand over is a total punk move. He could have just walked around him. Doesn't justify Green reaction... But yeah, that's what would happen on every playground anywhere.

 

[coremiller]

Bad game yes, getting outplayed by a great player, acceptable. LeBron no showed an entire Finals, a finals that should have been one that he dominated, unless Shawn Marion is better than we all thought.

It wasn't just one game. SI ran a story after the 1984 Finals with the headline: "JOHNSON IN THE CLUTCH: DON'T CALL HIM MAGIC, JUST CALL HIM UNRELIABLE." It's a classic of the hot take hatchet job genre.

Magic refers to what he does as "Showtime." Presumably, the bigger the game, the bigger the production. But you can't have fun in the clutch; Lordy, you can't crack a smile in the clutch. The clutch is a crucible. Calling on Magic then is like asking Busby Berkeley to step in and direct the climactic scene in an Ingmar Bergman movie.

http://www.si.com/vault/1984/08/20/622233/johnson-in-the-clutch-dont-call-him-magic-just-call-him-unreliable

 

[riboflav]

It wasn't just one game. SI ran a story after the 1984 Finals with the headline: "JOHNSON IN THE CLUTCH: DON'T CALL HIM MAGIC, JUST CALL HIM UNRELIABLE." It's a classic of the hot take hatchet job genre.



http://www.si.com/vault/1984/08/20/622233/johnson-in-the-clutch-dont-call-him-magic-just-call-him-unreliable

I think the larger point is that the 2011 Dallas Mavericks are not in the same stratosphere as the 1984 Lakers. Bill Walton, maybe the greatest center of all time when healthy, outplaying Kareem one year is not anything for Kareem to be ashamed of.

James is both a beneficiary of the era he has played in and its victim.

 

[JCizzle]

Draymond "accidentally" hits the nuts more than any player in history. The NBA needs to put a stop to this nonsense and sit him for a few games

 

[GeorgeCostanza]

Draymond "accidentally" hits the nuts more than any player in history. The NBA needs to put a stop to this nonsense and sit him for a few games

It's quite startling actually. If he were doing it as much off the court he'd be a registered sex offender by now. He's a fantastic player who really doesn't need to stoop that low. There are plenty of other ways to be physical and get into opponents head than going for the sack time and again. When I was a sophomore in HS there was a Sr on the team who would constantly go for nut shots during practice, especially when taking a jumper. He got away with it with us underclassmen for a while but one mid season practice he tried it on one of his bigger classmates. That was the last time and coach was very slow breaking up the ensuing beat down, purposely I assume.

 

[Three10toLeft]

Lebron is a ridiculous three pointer away from being 1-5 in the Finals. I can't really think of many instances where the bounce of one ball in Lebron's favor would change the outcome of any of the other Finals series in which he's lost.

I think once all the dust settles on his career, everyone will agree he's one of the top 5 players to ever play the game. But with that said, he's also going to be one of the top 5 most enigmatic players in sports history. His greatness on the court would lead everyone to believe that he should have won at least 6 titles, but little things kept him from winning all those rings. Maybe it was poor leadership skills, coupled with blind loyalty to a beleaguered city/state etc.

I hate Lebron. But I love to hate Lebron. And I love that he's provided me six straight years of being glued to my couch come early June to watch what he does in the NBA Finals. He's made me a bigger basketball fan for it, and I'm happy about that. I'm going to be sad when his Finals appearance streak ends, and I won't have a clear heel in mind when viewing the matchup.

Edit: As far as Green's nut check, he deserves to be suspended at this point. I don't think this particular instance is that bad. But the cumulation of this and the Adams incident, it's clearly a pattern. I find Green going for the nut check with Lebron stepping over him way more acceptable than the high kick to Adams. But I have noticed throughout this Finals that DG does seem to flail his legs out quite a bit. Particularly on rebounds, however anecdotal that might be.

If he was suspended, that would maybe be the wakeup call he needs. Not being able to celebrate a championship on the floor in your home arena would be a pretty bitter pill to swallow.

 

[jon abbey]

It's cliched at this point, but he honestly doesn't have the same sociopathic need to win that guys like Jordan and Kobe and Bird did. That's probably a good thing as a member of society, but he doesn't seem to always have the same urgency in the Finals as those other guys.

And of course it's impressive to make so many Finals in a row, but if the league reseeded 1-16 before the playoffs like they should, he definitely wouldn't have made as many. Some of it is of course on his teammates from his two CLE stints, but some of it is on him. It seems like if you are the second coming of Magic Johnson, you should be able to get Channing Frye some open 3s, as one example.

 

[nattysez]

If Draymond gets suspended and the Warriors still win, the anti-LeBron takes will be endless. But beating Cleveland, even at home, without Draymond would be a really tall order.

 

[LondonSox]

The biggest flaw in LeBron's resume is as a GM, I wish so badly we could know how the Cavs would have done against GS with Wiggins instead of Love in these past two Finals (assuming they'd get there without Love, I feel confident in that assumption personally).

Wiggins? Why? He's been poor defensively and his shot is lacking, 30% from 3, his rebounding is blah and his main skill is volume driving or a very poor man's LeBron. Why on earth would he help? He's a bad fit and not a very good player (yet)

 

[DeJesus Built My Hotrod]

If Draymond gets suspended and the Warriors still win, the anti-LeBron takes will be endless. But beating Cleveland, even at home, without Draymond would be a really tall order.

If Draymond is suspended, the Warriors will have a tough time winning game five at Oracle. And it makes the likelihood of game seven pretty high.

 

[BigSoxFan]

If Draymond is suspended, the Warriors will have a tough time winning game five at Oracle. And it makes the likelihood of game seven pretty high.

Call me crazy but I still think the roll regardless.

 

[DeJesus Built My Hotrod]

Call me crazy but I still think the roll regardless.

It will be difficult. The guy is the most vital hub of their offense and his defensive versatility and energy (the upside of the dirty plays we've discussed here) have made a huge impact on this series. Aside from Iguodala, Green is the only Warrior who can slow LeBron and his rebounding/inside presence is huge for them. If he is gone the Warriors are going to have to change their game planning quite a bit and that is hard to do in the middle of a series.

 

[Three10toLeft]

I think game 3 was a fluke.

I'd be pretty surprised if the Cavs were mentally tough enough and smart enough offensively to win a do or die game on the road in GS. It would take a herculean effort from Lebron. Regardless of if DG is suspended or not.

 

[BigSoxFan]

I think game 3 was a fluke.

I'd be pretty surprised if the Cavs were mentally tough enough and smart enough offensively to win a do or die game on the road in GS. It would take a herculean effort from Lebron. Regardless of if DG is suspended or not.

This is where I'm at. The Cavs are full of LeBron and a collection of losers - guys like Shumpert, JR Smith, Love, Kyrie, etc. aren't going into a hostile environment and rising to the occasion. We've seen how they melt down in Oracle. This series has played out exactly how I expected. You knew Cavs would have a home game where the shots fell but otherwise, they're horribly overmatched. Taking Green out of the equation makes it closer but Dubs minus Green for the whole series still win.

 

[snowmanny]

This is where I'm at. The Cavs are full of LeBron and a collection of losers - guys like Shumpert, JR Smith, Love, Kyrie, etc.

...Dellavedova. I know he had the one (maybe one and a half) good game in The Finals last year and I know we mercifully see less of him this year but I'm sort of surprised that a team so close to a title couldn't figure out some way to upgrade that spot with an eye towards the playoffs. Maybe there was nothing to be done but he can't keep up.

 

[BigSoxFan]

...Dellavedova. I know he had the one (maybe one and a half) good game in The Finals last year and I know we mercifully see less of him this year but I'm sort of surprised that a team so close to a title couldn't figure out some way to upgrade that spot with an eye towards the playoffs. Maybe there was nothing to be done but he can't keep up.

Agreed. Too bad for them that Mo Williams is cooked/injured. Dellavedova is a completely unacceptable backup PG for a title contender. Livingston has had a real solid series for the Warriors.