Gone Brady Gone

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bigq

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Thanks. That is fantastic and brought a much needed smile to my face. And to top it off, he was wrong about the players he suggested the Patriots should have taken as well. David Terrell did not amount to much, Koren Robinson made one Pro Bowl in his eight year career for his special teams play and Kenyatta Walker played six seasons without any Pro Bowl or All Pro accolades. Borges gets a D- for that analysis.
 

tims4wins

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Thanks. That is fantastic and brought a much needed smile to my face. And to top it off, he was wrong about the players he suggested the Patriots should have taken as well. David Terrell did not amount to much, Koren Robinson made one Pro Bowl in his eight year career for his special teams play and Kenyatta Walker played six seasons without any Pro Bowl or All Pro accolades. Borges gets a D- for that analysis.
D- way too generous. Clearly an F.
 

BigSoxFan

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I think the same argument applies to Edelman.

To me, a great draft pick is when you take someone unexpected or ahead of where the pundits say, and take a risk, and it pans out. Edelman and Brady weren't risky picks.

Guys like Gronk, Mankins, and McCourty were great picks. When they drafted Mankins the reaction was 99% "who???". He is probably their 2nd or 3rd best OL all time behind Hannah and maybe Armstrong.

Edit: and when they drafted McCourty BB was blasted for calling him a "four down player", with the insinuation that they drafted a special teams player in the first round

Double edit: the McCourty pick was extra brilliant due to the trades. First the Pats traded from 22 to 24 and picked up 113 - which they used to draft Hernandez. Then they traded down again from 24 to 27 and drafted DMC. They also included 119 in that trade and picked up 90. Unfortunately 90 turned into Taylor Price but it was still a brilliant set of moves / value.

Triple edit: I think I would have to include Seymour on my list of best draft picks ever. No one was happy about that pick in real time.
Think it all depends on how you define success. Could go in so many directions and these type of articles never really clearly define the criteria, as you noted.
 

DJnVa

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Honestly I would also argue with Brady as the best pick in Patriots history. They passed on him how many times? It was mostly lucky.
What's the limit for how many times a team can pass on someone before it's still a good pick? Otherwise you're tying yourself into first round picks aren't you?

There's ALWAYS luck, but there is credit to be given for actually pulling the trigger. This isn't the MLB draft where someone drafted Piazza because he was related to someone and it worked out.

(if that sounds snarky I do not intend it to, just asking your thoughts)
 

tims4wins

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What's the limit for how many times a team can pass on someone before it's still a good pick? Otherwise you're tying yourself into first round picks aren't you?

There's ALWAYS luck, but there is credit to be given for actually pulling the trigger. This isn't the MLB draft where someone drafted Piazza because he was related to someone and it worked out.

(if that sounds snarky I do not intend it to, just asking your thoughts)
No it's a fair question. It's not simply about passing up a player X amount of times. It is also about maybe picking a guy ahead of where he "should" have been picked. Like with Manning, I give the Colts credit for taking him over Leaf, but he still should have gone 1 or 2. Brady was picked in the range of where he was expected to be picked, it seems. I think there has to be some element of risk or surprise or whatever you want to call it to call it a great pick. By definition I think it has to be a pick that very few other teams would have made. Something that wasn't obvious. It's why I mentioned guys like McCourty, Mankins, Seymour, and Gronk. There was something unique about their selections.

On the opposite end would be Wilfork. That was a gift. It was a good pick in that BB wasn't dumb like some of the GMs in the 10-20 range of the 2004 draft, but it was blindingly obvious that he would be a good player.
 

Hendu for Kutch

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What's the limit for how many times a team can pass on someone before it's still a good pick? Otherwise you're tying yourself into first round picks aren't you?

There's ALWAYS luck, but there is credit to be given for actually pulling the trigger. This isn't the MLB draft where someone drafted Piazza because he was related to someone and it worked out.

(if that sounds snarky I do not intend it to, just asking your thoughts)
I think there's something to be said for seeing his value and pulling the trigger even though they had just signed their franchise QB to a megadeal and had 3 QB on the roster already. They had absolutely no need to take a QB and did it anyways because they saw some value there.
 

BaseballJones

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What's the limit for how many times a team can pass on someone before it's still a good pick? Otherwise you're tying yourself into first round picks aren't you?

There's ALWAYS luck, but there is credit to be given for actually pulling the trigger. This isn't the MLB draft where someone drafted Piazza because he was related to someone and it worked out.

(if that sounds snarky I do not intend it to, just asking your thoughts)
And if you have Brady valued higher, but rightly read the room, so to speak, and gamble that you can get him later, while adding other pieces you want, then that is good drafting. Yes a little luck, but of course the Pats got lucky that Gronk wasn't taken sooner too.
 

Euclis20

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What's the limit for how many times a team can pass on someone before it's still a good pick? Otherwise you're tying yourself into first round picks aren't you?

There's ALWAYS luck, but there is credit to be given for actually pulling the trigger. This isn't the MLB draft where someone drafted Piazza because he was related to someone and it worked out.

(if that sounds snarky I do not intend it to, just asking your thoughts)
Exactly. Just because there was no pressure on them for that pick and they were lucky someone else didn't pick him earlier doesn't negate the fact that they actually drafted the best player of all time with the 199th pick. He obviously turned out better than they could have hoped, but they still saw something in him and made the pick when no one else did. It's a results based world, and by the simplest of metrics (value received for the pick) it's by far the greatest selection of all time.
 

Oppo

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It's also stupid to do that list and then pick someone who was drafted #1 overall as the best pick in franchise history, something that takes zero research to figure out. Is the whole list just the best player in franchise history for each team?
I agree with this sentiment but you could argue how the NFL landscape would have changed dramatically had they picked Leaf. Although, Leaf himself may have driven them away from picking him.
 

InstaFace

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Agree with this. There is no way having a 6th round pick turn out to be the best player in the history of the league can be attributed to shrewd/prescient talent evaluation. The credit they do get is for the high level of coaching and development Brady received in his formative years, and for having the cojones to stay with him when the high-dollar, franchise QB was ready to return during the '01 season. Not many coaches would have done that, and BB was not operating from the position of accrued benefit of the doubt /leverage that he has now.
WTF? They were literally the only team that had any interest in Brady. They saw what 30 other teams did not. Then they kept FOUR QBs on the roster in 2000 in order to protect him from possibly being poached, i.e. they knew that he had potential almost immediately. In what way could that NOT be shrewd or prescient talent evaluation?

The pretzel knots being twisted here to not give credit are very sloppily baked. If you draft a great player high, then it's discarded because "anyone would have made that pick". If you draft a great player low, then it's discarded because "well they passed on them a few times already, so it's gotta be luck". Draft them in-line or above the expectations of amateur mock-draft pundits and you're wasting draft capital; draft them below those amateur mocks and, well, I guess you were only slightly less deluded than the rest of the league. Our draft gamethreads are littered with the corpses of various posters' conceptions of who will make a good NFL player, year after year, and yet here we are ready to discount the professionals even when it works out. Literally the only time I can recall the draft gamethread being more right than the league was with Lamar Jackson.
 

BaseballJones

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Wel he didn’t meet with Leftwich, right? He may have TRIED to meet with him but ended up going to the wrong house. Haha
 

Jinhocho

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Thanks. That is fantastic and brought a much needed smile to my face. And to top it off, he was wrong about the players he suggested the Patriots should have taken as well. David Terrell did not amount to much, Koren Robinson made one Pro Bowl in his eight year career for his special teams play and Kenyatta Walker played six seasons without any Pro Bowl or All Pro accolades. Borges gets a D- for that analysis.
I was at the draft party that day and spent a long time chatting with Ron Hobson, since he was impressed my cousin was rocking a I humbled the humble one shirt at the draft. Patriot Ledger days.

Anyway, BB came out to talk with folks at the draft party (it was at the race track) and he announced the Seymour pick and about 20% of the place booed loudly. BB was clearly startled then pressed on. People really wanted Terrell from what I remember. Only time I ever saw BB surprised :)
 

Harry Hooper

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Wel he didn’t meet with Leftwich, right? He may have TRIED to meet with him but ended up going to the wrong house. Haha
Aka the Conrad Dobler defense, "Sure, I tried to trip him, but attempted tripping isn't illegal."
 

Marciano490

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Wel he didn’t meet with Leftwich, right? He may have TRIED to meet with him but ended up going to the wrong house. Haha
Brady’s completion percentage is off to an inauspicious start with the Bucs.

Do we think after he blamed Leftwich for not being in the right spot?

I kid, Tommy.
 

lexrageorge

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It’s an NFL rules violation to meet with team staff before the league year begins..
It's technically not allowed until OTA's. Normally, OTA's would be starting around this time. This season there are no OTA's, but they may allow optional coach/player meetings in their absence, social distancing notwithstanding.
 

DJnVa

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It's technically not allowed until OTA's. Normally, OTA's would be starting around this time. This season there are no OTA's, but they may allow optional coach/player meetings in their absence, social distancing notwithstanding.
I would assume, if teams are actually complaining, that they didn't allow that.
 

bigq

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I was at the draft party that day and spent a long time chatting with Ron Hobson, since he was impressed my cousin was rocking a I humbled the humble one shirt at the draft. Patriot Ledger days.

Anyway, BB came out to talk with folks at the draft party (it was at the race track) and he announced the Seymour pick and about 20% of the place booed loudly. BB was clearly startled then pressed on. People really wanted Terrell from what I remember. Only time I ever saw BB surprised :)
Great story. He looked pretty surprised a few years later when he and his father were doused with ice water at the end of Super Bowl 39. ;)
 

McBride11

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Peyton is funny, but I still get a Shooter McGavin vibe from him.
Does that make Brady Happy Gilmore ?
He wins the big one in an unconventional manner. Beats the more traditionally talented guy. Unorthodox coach. Loves his mom. Attempted another sport that didn't work out. Very attractive significant other.

Uncanny parallels.
 

Hendu for Kutch

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Does that make Brady Happy Gilmore ?
He wins the big one in an unconventional manner. Beats the more traditionally talented guy. Unorthodox coach. Loves his mom. Attempted another sport that didn't work out. Very attractive significant other.

Uncanny parallels.
Chubbs Peterson = Dick Rehbein?

Too soon?
 

McBride11

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Chubbs Peterson = Dick Rehbein?

Too soon?
It’s all in the hips!

I think Peyton was the all-time best sports SNL host, ahead of Barkley.

And Brady, bless his heart, probably was in the bottom 2 or 3.
His ‘if you’re handsome it isnt sexual harassment’ skit is a good one, but in general Peyton has done way better in these comedy bits. As much as it pains me to admit it.
But hey good thing comedy doesn’t win SB.

Cut that meat!
 

Marciano490

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It’s all in the hips!



His ‘if you’re handsome it isnt sexual harassment’ skit is a good one, but in general Peyton has done way better in these comedy bits. As much as it pains me to admit it.
But hey good thing comedy doesn’t win SB.

Cut that meat!
Well, it’s not like they could’ve given the sexual harassment skit to Peyton.
 

lexrageorge

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Didn’t Gary Myers have Belichick going back to the Giants a couple of years ago? And Gasper's sources are unlikely to be that highly placed.
 
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DJnVa

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I don’t want to overreact but Brady isn’t coming across all that well right now.
I don't know. If it was something they had done before and now were no longer doing it, I can see it frustrating Brady.

But the insinuation was it was being done because Brady made it known he was gone.
 

Marciano490

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Like Kraft or Bill would side with Josh over Tom or they weren’t trying to win this year. This rumor is dumb.
 

Harry Hooper

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Gary Myers is not a Boston media member.

Brady LaLoosh?
 
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E5 Yaz

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