Goodbye Gruden and ongoing Snyder investigation discussion
- Thread starter PC Drunken Friar
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You can't start a thread like this without more context or a link:
View: https://twitter.com/andrewlbeaton/status/1446561055489069077
View: https://twitter.com/andrewlbeaton/status/1446561055489069077
Was it a ridiculously stupid / insensitive email? Yes. Will he be fired? No. We live in a world where Tyreke Hill is a hero despite breaking his kid’s arm. An email from 10 years ago isn’t going to get him fired. I won’t opine on whether or not it should. But it won’t.
Jesus, calling Smith dumb then making a comment on the size of his lips? That's pretty cut and dry.
I would be surprised if Gruden is fired for this based on how long ago it was and how important he is perceived to be for the franchise. His response of "I don't have a racial bone in my body and I've proven that for 58 years." is exactly the wrong, yet typical, response.
I think he should be fired.
I think he should be fired.
True, performance matters (way way way too much, of course.). Hill has been good at his job. Gruden is a phony sack of shit stealing Davis's money.
So I'm saying there's a chance.
While no one wants to be forever accountable for dumb stuff we've said or done years in our past, that was just 10 years ago and its racist and offensive. I guess its a good thing for Gruden he works for Mark Davis and a pro football team and not as an editor at Teen Vogue,
Richie Incognito is still in the league, despite not having made a Pro Bowl since 2017.
Being a player is totally different than being a coach. Gruden might not survive. But what goes in the NFL clearly isn’t the same as what goes elsewhere. I wouldn’t hazard a guess as to how this turns out for Gruden.
Being a player is totally different than being a coach. Gruden might not survive. But what goes in the NFL clearly isn’t the same as what goes elsewhere. I wouldn’t hazard a guess as to how this turns out for Gruden.
I don’t give a shit if it was 10 years ago. That’s offensive as hell in 2011 just as much as it is now. I’m perfectly comfortable holding him accountable for that. And yes John you do have a racist bone in your body or you wouldn’t have written that.
It probably depends if they can fire him for cause. Mark Davis isn't flush with cash so not sure he can afford to buyout the rest of that contract.
That's a depressing two sentences.
That's a depressing two sentences.
I had the same thought. But I don’t believe for a second that Gruden is the difference between Incognito being a team captain versus out of the league. It’s just a different world. As I said, I have no idea how Gruden’s comments play in that world. I wouldn’t be shocked if his career is over by this time tomorrow; I also wouldn’t be shocked if this blows over with just a slightly more contrite statement than his initial response.
I would be shocked if a player calls for him to resign regardless of race. Especially given Gruden is the coach and GM.
I’m not saying it’s going to happen. I’m simply saying it should. White players need to own this issue more than the people who are on the aggrieved side of things.
He’ll be gone by Sunday. Obama was President. It wasn’t that long ago. If the NFL wants to stand by it’s newer gentler “Black Lives Matter” posture, he’s out.
There’s only one way I can think of to convey the sentiment in a more offensive way.
There’s only one way I can think of to convey the sentiment in a more offensive way.
Valid. That said I imagine he has a very strong say in player personnel matters.
Its not really valid. Mayock works for Gruden and has acknowledged that fact publicly.
I think a huge part of whether or not Davis fires Gruden is the amount of pressure the league puts on the team in terms of fines, draft penalties etc.
Here is Gruden's "explanation:"
View: https://twitter.com/VicTafur/status/1446580009452244992
It would be something if the only real casualty of the NFL's investigation into the Dan Snyder regime is that the Raiders' coach gets fired.
DE Smith responded publicly, I don't think he will be taking Gruden's call:
View: https://twitter.com/JosinaAnderson/status/1446584369234186248
One thing I keep thinking about this afternoon is that Gruden has always had an out in the second coaching stint. He has always known he could walk away and ESPN and other networks would have $10m or so waiting on him. I don't think Mark Davis is going to fire him or Rodger Goodell is going to put enough pressure on the Raiders to force Davis' hand. But Gruden is probably radioactive for at least a few years in terms of walking into a broadcasting gig and that certainly as to change some calculations in Gruden's head going forward.
As far as what Goodell will do, I really think it depends on how much other incredibly awful shit is waiting to drop from the Snyder investigation.
As far as what Goodell will do, I really think it depends on how much other incredibly awful shit is waiting to drop from the Snyder investigation.
Yeah even with the new regime at ESPN, there is zero chance a guy who made racist statements about the head of the players union ever works for them again. If it was general racist comments... maybe, but how do you convince players (many of them black) to deal with you any more than the league makes you, when you hire a guy who was a racist shitheel about your union chief? How does the league allow it, given everyone knows that ESPN makes any personnel move the NFL asks them to, I mean it's nothing but bad press all around.
Whether he gets fired depends on two things to me:
1. How he handles it (so far poorly)
2. How his players and other players around the league react.... yeah they are 3-1, and yeah Davis probably doesn't want to pay him to not coach... but in the end, you don't want the rep as "the racist owner", it's a bad look and effects your future as a FA destination.
Total speculation but I could also see Gruden being a guy who kind of just breeds quiet resentment, and that this is a flash point. I guess we’ll see.
I wonder whether when they came up with that “rubber lips” story, everyone in the room high fived or they knew it was shit but the best they had.
Reading Smith’s response this really should be fatal for Gruden. Black professionals like Smith have been dealing with bullshit comments like Gruden’s forever. An NFL franchise really can’t have a head coach who called the black head of the player’s association stupid, never mind the racist shit.
I’m Guessing he won’t be fired but he should be.
Edit: and Gruden is bungling the aftermath because pretty much anybody who would write that shit in the first place does not have the ability to understand why comments like that are fucking heinous.
I’m Guessing he won’t be fired but he should be.
Edit: and Gruden is bungling the aftermath because pretty much anybody who would write that shit in the first place does not have the ability to understand why comments like that are fucking heinous.
My read on the Internet earlier showed that many were actually praising him for getting out in front of this and owning up it. So while I personally think his excuse is laughable, obviously people can disagree. His excuse may just have enough plausible deniability that, together with the 10 years of separation, it will save him.
Like it or not, if his goal is self preservation, this may be the best thing he could have done. I think he has a much lower chance of surviving if he comes out and admits that he meant it in the racist way, even if he does show contrition.
Does owning it include saying things like “I will take accountability for it if it’s on my email”?
Lest we forget, the Raiders were the team with the first Black coach in the league. Hard to see keeping him as anything other than betraying Al’s legacy.
Edit: here is the Raiders’ statement:View: https://twitter.com/adamschefter/status/1446666258653515778?s=21
Lest we forget, the Raiders were the team with the first Black coach in the league. Hard to see keeping him as anything other than betraying Al’s legacy.
Edit: here is the Raiders’ statement:View: https://twitter.com/adamschefter/status/1446666258653515778?s=21
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Gruden's statement - where he claims the omniscient ability to know when someone is lying and therefore implies that this is DeMaurice Smith's fault - should be enough to get him fired in and of itself. Add in the passive-aggressive notion of being accountable "if its on my email" and this fucker needs to be gone yesterday. What a fucking piece of shit.
Happiest man in the league right now is Urban Meyer.
Happiest man in the league right now is Urban Meyer.
The Raiders statement isn’t much better, making excuses, tbh. “It was 10 years ago! It happened when he was working at ESPN, not coaching here!”
To be clear, I don't expect him to be fired over this. (Just like with Meyer, owners hate admitting they've made a titanic mistake about the coach who was supposed to be the savior.) I'll just have to satisfy myself with the fact that this racist asshole will have to live with the knowledge that we all know exactly who he is.
Gruden's explanation is... obvious bullshit. He should be fired, and I think he will be.
I don't think most teams would fire him, but the Raiders might. I wonder how the team responded to his explanation/apology. African American players strongly rallying around him would help.
If players do not, that sends a message too.
They should cut sling load now anyway.
If players do not, that sends a message too.
They should cut sling load now anyway.
They were 6-3 last year and 6-4 the year before. His hot shit seems to devolve into lukewarm piss pretty quickly.
If he gets canned (which I dont expect, because NFL) he'll end up in Jacksonville.
Gruden was 48 years old, had been a two-time head coach, and was one of the highest paid commentators at ESPN when he sent that e-mail. "It was 10 years ago", is a complete non-starter as an excuse. He wasn't in high school. And a quick google search reveals "rubber lips" is most commonly, crudely, used to describe someone mangling pronunciation. Not a commonly used pejorative to describe someone who is lying. So, he either invented his own vocabulary(and I think we all know he's likely not bright enough for that), or he's lying. The e-mail was clearly, unconditionally racist. He should not coach another game for the Raiders, or anywhere else in the league.
Which part? Ultimately, I dont think he'll get canned by the Raiders, unless the players are in Davis's ear. He seems to one of "thosefootballguys" that's untouchable. But in the unlikely event he's out in LV, I could absolutely see Khan giving him a spin after Meyer bails.
You think Khan would hire a coach who was just the casualty of another, bigger controversy after the doomed Meyer experience?
The Jacksonville part. If Meyer leaves, Khan can't make a controversial hire. It will have to be vanilla. (or chocolate. don't mean to say it would be a black/white issue!)
Ha.
I have little faith (wrong word as I dont care about that franchise) that Khan will *ever* make the right hire, or a hire based on good sense.
There are two major moments here — the first time Gruden addresses the team after this, and his first press conference (not the first time he gives an "interview" to a friendly reporter). If he gets through those without making matters worse, he probably survives this ... whether or not he should.
If he somehow makes matters worse, particularly in a press conference where he'll be on camera, all bets are off
If he somehow makes matters worse, particularly in a press conference where he'll be on camera, all bets are off
I agree with this. It can be spun that it was ten years ago; much more woke now; look at my track record since then... yadda yadda yadda. If he can contain it, he's got a very real chance of getting this washed away...
Unless of course the Raiders go on a five game losing streak, in which case, he's toast.
He has already made it worse. His decision, when angry, is to make a racist comment speaks volumes. His statement is trash.
Of course it is, no one's disagreeing with that. The question is the consequences, and whether going forward he digs the hole he put himself in any deeper
edit: And, as I said earlier, I'm curious about the "other documents" the NFL provided the Raiders
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Gruden did his normal media availability period yesterday afternoon, about an hour after the WSJ story broke.
If you have a subscription to The Athletic, I recommend giving this story by Raiders beat writer Tashan Reed a read:
https://theathletic.com/2877784/2021/10/08/reed-raiders-coach-jon-gruden-must-prove-his-racist-comment-isnt-indicative-of-his-character/
Thanks for the link.
As the resident Raiders expert, how do you a) see this playing out and 2) want to see this play out?
No one knows. This might be the least offensive thing to come out of the Snyder investigation. This might be the worst. It might be only Gruden who looks horrible, it might be half the coaches / owners / GMs in the NFL. Anyone who is a friend of Bruce Allen or Dan Snyer is likely to have said and done some awful shit.... so who knows.
But, looking at this situation in isolation....
Answering #2 - the part of me that wants to die with something other than the Marcus Allen Super Bowl highlight being my favorite memory as a Raiders fan says that this is a blessing and the Raiders should use this to pull the plug and get out of the Gruden situation. I'd be calling Lincoln Riley right now. So, as a selfish Raider fan, I want him out.
If I was Mark Davis, I'd probably ask my best friend and paid advisor Marcel Reece what he thought. I would want to hear the opinion of people like Darren Waller or Rodney Hudson (who asked to be traded this off season), powerful black players who have been Captains for Gruden and have no real need to carry his water. I'd love to hear EJ Manuel's opinion on this, because playing QB for Gruden is so different than playing any other position for him. Gruden's a weirdo who says strange, bizarre shit ("I lost my virginity to the Notre Dame fight song") all the time and has a long history of slandering people privately while being friendly or supportive to their face. His "story" strikes me as believable and in keeping with everything we know about him, but Tashan Reed is right, it is on Gruden to prove that he is not what it appears in that email. So, I think any decision about firing Gruden needs to be made after talking to Gruden and more importantly talking to people who will have to play for him and deal with him. We as the public don't have that luxury, so it will remain somewhat hypothetical to us.
Answering #1 - The Raiders are probably the most diverse team in the league on the administrative side of the house and the organization has long cared about diversity in hiring and action. But.... they re-hired Tom Cable, and Mark Davis put out that tone def tweet about the George Floyd verdict earlier this year, and they have brought in (the admittedly reformed) Richie Incognito... so I don't know, perhaps wealthy Mark Davis has changed. I don't think they fire him, but if there was an organization or owner that would, I think it would be Mark Davis.
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Florio addresses the Snyder angle of all of this:
https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2021/10/09/leak-of-jon-gruden-email-renews-questions-regarding-lack-of-transparency-in-wft-investigation
I imagine part of the calculation for the league and the Raiders is that Jon Gruden is wealthy enough to afford real lawyers who would undoubtedly get some decent discovery in any wrongful termination lawsuit. So, if they do fire him, he is walking away with "go away quietly" money.
https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2021/10/09/leak-of-jon-gruden-email-renews-questions-regarding-lack-of-transparency-in-wft-investigation
I imagine part of the calculation for the league and the Raiders is that Jon Gruden is wealthy enough to afford real lawyers who would undoubtedly get some decent discovery in any wrongful termination lawsuit. So, if they do fire him, he is walking away with "go away quietly" money.