Gordon Hayward 2020: I'm standing here in pieces and you're having delusions of grandeur!

[benhogan]

So, here's an interesting wrinkle in all this: if Hayward continues to play at this level, does that open up some very interesting trade possibilities come January?

He's no longer a distressed asset. I'm not talking salary dump, but would it make sense to move Hayward for a center of equal ability? Right now, the Celtics five best players are (in no particular order): Tatum, Hayward, Brown, Walker, Smart.

It certainly is worth a conversation to think, do you trade one of Tatum/Brown/Hayward for a legit center? Fansided had an article talking about Myles Turner, Andre Drummond, or Steven Adams

Good question. This is something we kicked around all Summer. I would have emphatically said YES on Myles Turner a month ago, but I'm coming around to a stable of reasonable 5's. It's purely wild-eyed speculation on my part but it seems that Centers get injured more than ever (funny enough both Turner/Adams have missed games this year).

IMO the Celtics Championship window opens in 2021. So I'd still do Turner for Hayward since that would secure MT at $18MM/yr for 2 seasons, while GH can opt-out this Summer. His age/timeline is better also

 

[Kliq]

People maybe dont think of him as explosive becayse of how scrawny he was in college but the dude was one of the most fearsome dunkers in transition in the NBA when he was in Utah.

Yeah. Plus he is white.

 

[NomarsFool]

The thing that is a bit challenging is to find a team where it's a win-win for both team. You'd have to have a team that has an All-Star / Close to All-Star caliber center, plus someone who could reasonably fill that void when they traded him, plus have such a glaring need at wing that they need to make the trade. Here, I'm assuming that the trade partner is trying to make their team better. Because, since Hayward is potentially gone for them next summer - they need to see some value in making the trade this season.

If there was someone that was looking to dump a center on a long-term deal just to clear salary, that could potentially make sense for them as well.

 

[Red Averages]

Wait, Hayward is now #back and we’re trying to ship him out again?!! Can we enjoy this team and how fantastic they are able to distribute 20+ ppg amongst themselves, switch and defend their opponents?

I will sell any all realistic odds on the Celtics moving Hayward if anyone wants action.

 

[benhogan]

Wait, Hayward is now #back and we’re trying to ship him out again?!! Can we enjoy this team and how fantastic they are able to distribute 20+ ppg amongst themselves, switch and defend their opponents?

I will sell and all realistic odds on the Celtics moving Hayward if anyone wants action.

I think we're all thrilled with the start to the season and enjoying it

There is a very, very small chance the C's move Gordon, but do expect some teams to try and pry him away by waving a 5 in front of Danny. So trade rumors wouldn't shock me

 

[nighthob]

Wait, Hayward is now #back and we’re trying to ship him out again?!! Can we enjoy this team and how fantastic they are able to distribute 20+ ppg amongst themselves, switch and defend their opponents?

I will sell any all realistic odds on the Celtics moving Hayward if anyone wants action.

People are dreaming of the NBA of their youth. Boston isn’t a contender yet so they should stop making googly eyes at behemoths across the league. Ainge isn’t going to deal Hayward for a designated Embiid defender.

The sort of player they should be looking for, if at all, is someone like Dray Green. A mobile defender at the 4 that can slide over to the 5 for death time lineups. A taller Grant Williams. Aaron Gordon probably fits the bill, but due to crap management (in Orlando) it’s not really feasible (that payroll is uglier than Donald Trump’s nude selfies).

 

[JakeRae]

I think we're all thrilled with the start to the season and enjoying it

There is a very, very small chance the C's move Gordon, but do expect some teams to try and pry him away by waving a 5 in front of Danny. So trade rumors wouldn't shock me

What 5? There really isn’t anything close to a talent match out there. There are basically only 3 really good true 5s in the league (excluding guys like Davis and Horford that don’t want to be 5s even if they should be). Jokic, Embiid, and Gobert aren’t available. Towns is probably the closest thing out there to a comparable quality of player at the 5 to an actually healthy Hayward and I think we can all agree that trade isn’t happening. After that, there’s a pretty substantial talent drop off. Basically everyone else out there is a role player. You don’t trade Hayward for a role player. Plus, we already have a pretty good role player 5 in Theis, a young 5 whose shown pretty big improvements versus last year in Williams, and Kanter.

 

[DeJesus Built My Hotrod]

What 5? There really isn’t anything close to a talent match out there. There are basically only 3 really good true 5s in the league (excluding guys like Davis and Horford that don’t want to be 5s even if they should be). Jokic, Embiid, and Gobert aren’t available. Towns is probably the closest thing out there to a comparable quality of player at the 5 to an actually healthy Hayward and I think we can all agree that trade isn’t happening. After that, there’s a pretty substantial talent drop off. Basically everyone else out there is a role player. You don’t trade Hayward for a role player. Plus, we already have a pretty good role player 5 in Theis, a young 5 whose shown pretty big improvements versus last year in Williams, and Kanter.

These aren't real trades - they are mostly concocted out of fan blog posts and people here who either think that the C's absolutely need to get a young "big" (numbers don't mean much in today's NBA of course) who suddenly becomes available or an even smaller group who think the difference between this team's ceiling and a higher one involves getting a guy like Drummond.

Anything is possible and Ainge seems as prepared as possible for something falling into his lap. However, as you note, the chances of getting truly transformational talent are fairly slim. And I am not sure I would refer to Drummond - who is also a "true five" but without any ability to stretch the floor - as an upgrade. He is clearly very good but I am not sure he is a good fit for what Boston is trying to do.

Getting back to Hayward, he really looks like he is back to start the season but I have a hard time seeing teams sending back equal value for him given the money involved and I am also uncertain what sort of upgrade they can achieve by moving him. The only way I see him being moved this year is if they are sputtering before the deadline. Otherwise, if they are going to trade him, it will most likely be this offseason when the market opens up.

 

[scottyno]

Getting back to Hayward, he really looks like he is back to start the season but I have a hard time seeing teams sending back equal value for him given the money involved and I am also uncertain what sort of upgrade they can achieve by moving him. The only way I see him being moved this year is if they are sputtering before the deadline. Otherwise, if they are going to trade him, it will most likely be this offseason when the market opens up.

If he keeps this up they won't get a chance to trade him in the offseason, if he plays at an all star level this year he probably opts out, as bad as this years free agent class is.

 

[nighthob]

If he keeps this up they won't get a chance to trade him in the offseason, if he plays at an all star level this year he probably opts out, as bad as this years free agent class is.

Or the Knicks can do Knicks things and make a godfather offer for him.

 

[benhogan]

If he keeps this up they won't get a chance to trade him in the offseason, if he plays at an all star level this year he probably opts out, as bad as this years free agent class is.

yea, I think people have a tough time understanding that bit.

Once again there is an extremely rare chance Gordon gets dealt, nomarsfool was just posing the question on what his value is on the trade market from the Celtics perspective. It's merely an exercise, no one is predicting that it will happen.

IMO:
Drummond...no
Adams...no
Turner...maybe*

Teams will see the Celtics as wing heavy, see the Celtics future cap situation, inquire on Gordon and probably get told NO by Danny & Co. The Celtics may be content with their stable of reasonable 5s, I know I've always been a fan of Theis.

*ALSO Pritchard probably doesn't even pick up the phone to engage.

 

[scottyno]

Or the Knicks can do Knicks things and make a godfather offer for him.

This is a big worry, in theory he's looking at a max of around 40m a year as a 10 year vet, when you include Tatum's inevitable max or near max that's a ton of money to be paying for 4 guys who may or may not have a championship ceiling. Hopefully he would take a bit of a discount over a max from a terrible team, but who knows. Him opting out and then leaving for nothing would be the worst case scenario, because like Brown, if he walks they can't just turn around and replace his salary.

 

[lovegtm]

This is a big worry, in theory he's looking at a max of around 40m a year as a 10 year vet, when you include Tatum's inevitable max or near max that's a ton of money to be paying for 4 guys who may or may not have a championship ceiling. Hopefully he would take a bit of a discount over a max from a terrible team, but who knows. Him opting out and then leaving for nothing would be the worst case scenario, because like Brown, if he walks they can't just turn around and replace his salary.

I imagine in that scenario they'd look to re-sign him and then move him later (similar to the PG OKC situation). You could lower the overall money taken back in the trade while also not losing talent/salary slot for nothing.

 

[lovegtm]

People are dreaming of the NBA of their youth. Boston isn’t a contender yet so they should stop making googly eyes at behemoths across the league. Ainge isn’t going to deal Hayward for a designated Embiid defender.

The sort of player they should be looking for, if at all, is someone like Dray Green. A mobile defender at the 4 that can slide over to the 5 for death time lineups. A taller Grant Williams. Aaron Gordon probably fits the bill, but due to crap management (in Orlando) it’s not really feasible (that payroll is uglier than Donald Trump’s nude selfies).

Usually I'm totally on-board with your opinions, but how does a Dray-type help them match up with Philly/Embiid? I think that as currently constructed, with this version of Theis, they have enough talent to beat the Bucks, because they have enough bodies to throw at Giannis when Smart isn't bloodsporting him. I also think people are sleeping on the downgrade that losing Brogdon was. But I still don't see how you handle the Philly matchup with this roster, unless Kanter is really killing it on the offensive end.

 

[scottyno]

Usually I'm totally on-board with your opinions, but how does a Dray-type help them match up with Philly/Embiid? I think that as currently constructed, with this version of Theis, they have enough talent to beat the Bucks, because they have enough bodies to throw at Giannis when Smart isn't bloodsporting him. I also think people are sleeping on the downgrade that losing Brogdon was. But I still don't see how you handle the Philly matchup with this roster, unless Kanter is really killing it on the offensive end.

Philly still hasn't shown they can shoot the ball at all, if Kanter can replicate his previous servicable defensive performance on Embiid they've got a punchers chance with 4 great offensive players. Even as long as Philly is the Cs will be a hard cover for anyone after a full regular season to gel.

 

[nighthob]

Usually I'm totally on-board with your opinions, but how does a Dray-type help them match up with Philly/Embiid?

I’m not talking about matching up with Philly, I’m talking about overall. Other people wanted to trade Hayward for a designated Embiid stopper. I was saying that on the contrary they should be looking for a Green type player. Maybe it would have been clearer if I said Boston should be looking for a 6’8”/6’9” version of Marcus Smart. If Grant Williams was 6’8”-6’9” he’d be a good candidate. Then again, he’d‘ve been a top 6 pick if he were.

In 2020 I think that Jerome Robinson-Earl could be that guy (he’s young enough that you can hope that he grows a little more and gets stronger), but if Boston’s a top ten team there’s no way he floats that far.

 

[lovegtm]

I’m not talking about matching up with Philly, I’m talking about overall. Other people wanted to trade Hayward for a designated Embiid stopper. I was saying that on the contrary they should be looking for a Green type player. Maybe it would have been clearer if I said Boston should be looking for a 6’8”/6’9” version of Marcus Smart. If Grant Williams was 6’8”-6’9” he’d be a good candidate. Then again, he’d‘ve been a top 6 pick if he were.

In 2020 I think that Jerome Robinson-Earl could be that guy (he’s young enough that you can hope that he grows a little more and gets stronger), but if Boston’s a top ten team there’s no way he floats that far.

Re the bolded: LOLOL. As for the rest, I agree that a taller Marcus Smart would be the ideal piece. The issue, once again, is matching salary, as you noted with Aaron Gordon.

 

[Eddie Jurak]

If he keeps this up they won't get a chance to trade him in the offseason, if he plays at an all star level this year he probably opts out, as bad as this years free agent class is.

What teams have max room avalible for Hayward next year?

 

[lovegtm]

What teams have max room avalible for Hayward next year?

Hawks, Knicks, maybe a few others. I think his idea in opting out would be to re-sign here though. The issue, as mentioned above, is that you can't really pay Kemba, Tatum, Brown and Hayward unless that's an actual championship core.

 

[wade boggs chicken dinner]

I will sell any all realistic odds on the Celtics moving Hayward if anyone wants action.

Count me in on this too. The Cs are not trading GH. These guys are human beings, not video game characters.

Plus, I'm not convinced GH opts-out simply to test FA market. For example, I don't think GH leaves Brad to sign a max contract with NYK or ATL. Just speculation but from his public comments, GH cares about more than just $.

 

[Lose Remerswaal]

Not even to the Knicks? For the #1 in the upcoming draft?

 

[BigSoxFan]

Hawks, Knicks, maybe a few others. I think his idea in opting out would be to re-sign here though. The issue, as mentioned above, is that you can't really pay Kemba, Tatum, Brown and Hayward unless that's an actual championship core.

I think a Kemba/Tatum/Brown/Hayward core is capable of winning a title so I certainly hope Wyc is ready to spend. They wouldn’t be favorites because there’s no top 10 guy but if Hayward’s recovery is real and the Jay’s continue to develop, you probably have 4 top 40 guys.

I think this team could use a scoring wing off the bench. Would love to find a way to pry Josh Hart off of Pelicans. Something like Langford and the Bucks pick.

 

[Red Averages]

Wait, now Hayward - who chose Boston as a free agent and has been reunited with his college coach/mentor and who seemingly LOVES playing in Boston, who is finally back to his former self on the #1 team in the weak East, with a young family finally settled down, playing on an amazing roster culture both personality wise and fit, with young talent and future young talent (picks) on the way, is going to OPT OUT and go to the Hawks or Knicks? This team is amazing - stop making up scenarios that take away from the fun. It's ok to enjoy the season!

 

[lexrageorge]

One issue with trading Hayward is that the Celtics gave him the red carpet treatment to get him here, as he was a highly sought after free agent. Trading Hayward to the Knicks, as an example, will make it nigh impossible for the team to attract free agents in the future.

There is also the locker room impact to consider. His teammates see him recover from a horrific injury, and become of their top forwards, and suddenly they have the rug pulled out from under them so the team can get a defensive rotation player at the 5? Not happening.

Fortunately, Danny realizes that this is not NBA 2K. Contrary to the wishes of the game threads, none of Hayward, Tatum, Brown, or Walker are getting traded, barring something unforeseen happening.

 

[lovegtm]

People are conflating Hayward opting out to sign elsewhere with his opting out to sign here on a big deal. The latter is far, far more likely, and brings up tough luxury tax considerations even if Hayward is playing great and the deal is an asset.

At that point, with Tatum's presumed deal, you're around $130M for 4 guys, with Smart taking you to the tax. The issue won't be the tax per se, but whether that core is good enough to be worth it.

 

[Big John]

They played a few minutes last night with Grant Williams at the 5 and held their own. And the rim protection with Theis and TL has been decent. I see no reason to move Hayward.

 

[DJnVa]

In the early going, 5 players are averaging 20 points, 8.0 rebounds, and 4.5 assists:

Lebron, Giannis, Luka, Kawhi, Westbrook.

If Hayward had 1 more total rebound he'd be the 6th.

 

[Devizier]

who is finally back to his former self on the #1 team in the weak East

I know the Celtics beat Milwaukee but I’d put them and Philly ahead of them and the conference isn’t particularly weak.

 

[NomarsFool]

They played a few minutes last night with Grant Williams at the 5 and held their own. And the rim protection with Theis and TL has been decent. I see no reason to move Hayward.

If Grant Williams is on the floor, that means that one of the Celtics five best players is on the bench. Thinking ahead to the playoffs, the Celtics are going to want to have their 5 best players on the floor as much as possible. I'm not talking about specific matchups with Embiid - I'm just talking about having a situation where 4 of your 5 best players are wings is not ideal from a roster perspective. It would be better if they had a big who fit into their system. Definitely not talking about trading him for a draft pick (that wouldn't even work) or a role player. Just wondering if there is a win-win out there that makes both teams better.

 

[benhogan]

If Grant Williams is on the floor, that means that one of the Celtics five best players is on the bench. Thinking ahead to the playoffs, the Celtics are going to want to have their 5 best players on the floor as much as possible. I'm not talking about specific matchups with Embiid - I'm just talking about having a situation where 4 of your 5 best players are wings is not ideal from a roster perspective. It would be better if they had a big who fit into their system. Definitely not talking about trading him for a draft pick (that wouldn't even work) or a role player. Just wondering if there is a win-win out there that makes both teams better.

How dare you bring up different roster fit/contract options/future payroll concerns for discussion on a Celtics board???

I love how posters twisted around what you said for their own narrative same old straw

Nomar, just shut up and enjoy the season!

 

[DJnVa]

View: https://twitter.com/SeanGrandePBP/status/1192675130121576448


He got the > backwards, but that's impressive.

 

[lovegtm]

If Grant Williams is on the floor, that means that one of the Celtics five best players is on the bench. Thinking ahead to the playoffs, the Celtics are going to want to have their 5 best players on the floor as much as possible. I'm not talking about specific matchups with Embiid - I'm just talking about having a situation where 4 of your 5 best players are wings is not ideal from a roster perspective. It would be better if they had a big who fit into their system. Definitely not talking about trading him for a draft pick (that wouldn't even work) or a role player. Just wondering if there is a win-win out there that makes both teams better.

Yeah, I think everyone is looking for said win-win. It’s really tough to find. At some point I’m going to sit down and look through every roster for every burly 6-8+ guy and see what there is.

The only guy off the top of my head who hasn’t been mentioned is Tristan Thompson. Think you can match salary for Theis+Kanter+3.5M (Poirier, etc). The issue is whether you gain that much just from keeping Theis around for a few years (presumably at a lower number).

 

[128]

Yeah, I think everyone is looking for said win-win. It’s really tough to find. At some point I’m going to sit down and look through every roster for every burly 6-8+ guy and see what there is.

The only guy off the top of my head who hasn’t been mentioned is Tristan Thompson. Think you can match salary for Theis+Kanter+3.5M (Poirier, etc). The issue is whether you gain that much just from keeping Theis around for a few years (presumably at a lower number).

Interesting that you mention Tristan Thompson. Watching the game the other nite, it occurred to me that he might be a fantastic fit on the C's surrounded by all those talented wings.

 

[Cesar Crespo]

Would anyone trade him for Sabonis? I don't think it work under the cap anyway but Sabonis has to have tremendous value with his 4/74.9 extension.

I get a feeling people on this board don't really like Sabonis though. I'm not sure why. It looks like he could be having a break out year this season as well. Great rebounder, good scorer, good passer, decent FT shooter and has added the 3 back to his game.

 

[ifmanis5]

Zach had some nice things to say about GH today: https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/28021786/ten-nba-things-like-including-luka-doncic-trickery

 

[DJnVa]

Would anyone trade him for Sabonis? I don't think it work under the cap anyway but Sabonis has to have tremendous value with his 4/74.9 extension.

I get a feeling people on this board don't really like Sabonis though. I'm not sure why. It looks like he could be having a break out year this season as well. Great rebounder, good scorer, good passer, decent FT shooter and has added the 3 back to his game.

Sabonis just signed a new contract, so he has that poison pill provision where it's really hard to trade him until season is over.

 

[NomarsFool]

As one of the announcers mentioned last night, Gordon has been amazing with the off-ball cuts these recent games.

 

[DeJesus Built My Hotrod]

Sabonis just signed a new contract, so he has that poison pill provision where it's really hard to trade him until season is over.

And again, Ainge and Pritchard seem to have some history beyond their respective reputational stuff. This came up during around the George trade and if its real, it likely only complicates any sort of Pacers/Celtics trade.

 

[NomarsFool]

And again, Ainge and Pritchard seem to have some history beyond their respective reputational stuff. This came up during around the George trade and if its real, it likely only complicates any sort of Pacers/Celtics trade.

That's too bad, because for two of the Celtics' assets (Hayward and Romeo) the Pacers might theoretically value them higher than other teams, because of the Indiana connection.

Also, Indiana is one of the few teams that seems to have a glut at Big.

 

[lexrageorge]

Sabonis just signed a new contract, so he has that poison pill provision where it's really hard to trade him until season is over.

To get an idea of how difficult it would be to trade Sabonis, Indy could only take back $6.2M in salary as they are over the cap. Meanwhile, the acquiring team needs to accommodate a $15.7M of incoming salary.

 

[wade boggs chicken dinner]

Would anyone trade him for Sabonis? I don't think it work under the cap anyway but Sabonis has to have tremendous value with his 4/74.9 extension.

I get a feeling people on this board don't really like Sabonis though. I'm not sure why. It looks like he could be having a break out year this season as well. Great rebounder, good scorer, good passer, decent FT shooter and has added the 3 back to his game.

Are you asking whether anyone would trade GH for Sabonis? Even without taking everything else (including salary) into consideration, no I would not trade GH for Sabonis.

Not even to the Knicks? For the #1 in the upcoming draft?

There's a better chance of GH getting traded to the Royals for the #1 baseball pick than to the NYK for the #1 overall pick.

 

[benhogan]

Would anyone trade him for Sabonis? I don't think it work under the cap anyway but Sabonis has to have tremendous value with his 4/74.9 extension.

I get a feeling people on this board don't really like Sabonis though. I'm not sure why. It looks like he could be having a break out year this season as well. Great rebounder, good scorer, good passer, decent FT shooter and has added the 3 back to his game.

Sabonis is a future All-Star IMO. BUT I'm probably alone in thinking that. He'll end up being better than Turner if he isn't already. As lexrageorge points out, the poison pill makes Sabonis next to impossible to deal this season.
Maybe makes Turner more tradeable? especially if Bitadze plays well.
But agree with DeJesus, that Ainge & Pritchard probably don't call each other much.

At this point, I'm all for keeping what we have and letting it play out.

Interested in seeing what Brad can wring out of Kanter. If Enis doesn't work over the next 6 weeks, Danny looks at reasonable BIGs on sellers/crappy teams (sorry SRN) that could be available after Dec 15th:
WCS, Looney, Bryant, Dedmon, Holmes, Allen (Nets), Mitch Robinson (very doubtful but its the NY Knicks so you make that call)

 

[RedOctober3829]

It's almost as if the people that were advocating for Hayward to play as much as possible last year were right.

 

[Big John]

Do the Celtics really have too many wings? Depth is a good thing, if only because injuries happen. If the team as presently constituted was getting killed on the glass, that's one thing. But it isn't, even though Kanter isn't even playing and Brown just missed three games.

 

[nighthob]

Re the bolded: LOLOL. As for the rest, I agree that a taller Marcus Smart would be the ideal piece. The issue, once again, is matching salary, as you noted with Aaron Gordon.

Yeah, that was my reaction to the thought of moving Hayward for Drummond or Adams. I mean a trade built around Hayward for Gordon would likely help both teams, but the Magic have been so mismanaged that they can't credibly make up the necessary salary without giving Boston a New Orleans style draft haul to make it worth their while to eat a shitty deal.

 

[benhogan]

It's almost as if the people that were advocating for Hayward to play as much as possible last year were right.

or they didn't need to start him day one and subsequently bench him.

that was even more right

 

[benhogan]

Yeah, that was my reaction to the thought of moving Hayward for Drummond or Adams. I mean a trade built around Hayward for Gordon would likely help both teams, but the Magic have been so mismanaged that they can't credibly make up the necessary salary without giving Boston a New Orleans style draft haul to make it worth their while to eat a shitty deal.

Adams, Drummond, Gasol is beyond brain dead at this point...

Myles Turner could be argued (due to cap/timeline/salary/contract length), but I would rather not, after seeing Gordon absolutely go back to his old self.

 

[nighthob]

I agree with you there, and I like Turner. But the wing position is absolutely the most important one in the current NBA and Hayward has turned himself into a really good power 3, which is an added advantage given the size/athleticism packages that Tatum and Brown bring to the table.

 

[Montana Fan]

I like the Mo Bamba idea as an option for a big. Not for Hayward, as I don't think he's going anywhere for quite a while. Brad's not an idiot. GH is a perfect fit in the middle of his offense. Gordon is Ev Turner on steroids and has made it so Al Horford isn't even missed on the offensive end. He's an integral part of the plan for the next 4-5 years in Boston.

 

[benhogan]

I agree with you there, and I like Turner. But the wing position is absolutely the most important one in the current NBA and Hayward has turned himself into a really good power 3, which is an added advantage given the size/athleticism packages that Tatum and Brown bring to the table.

1. Brown is a good 4 on the cusp of being great/All-star level (probably by next season). His explosiveness to the hoop is basically unmatched. His handle and shot with either hand are solid. He is moving the ball and even his FT shot is softer on the rim
2. Hayward is a great Power 3 right now. Utah Gordon is here 24 months later.
3. Tatum will be a great power 3 when he fills out and can play through contact/draw fouls. His shot selection is excellent.

7 games in and these three, have exceeded my most optimistic expectations.

So I was very wrong for worrying about the 5 this Summer. I offer my mea culpa on all my Turner/Sabonis speculation