Grant “Corner Office” Williams

lovegtm

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 30, 2013
12,240
We should probably start a thread debating if Thybulle is worth $20 million/year. He’s obviously an inferior offensive player to Grant, but he also is actually an elite defender and is a similar caliber of player:

View attachment 61297
The problem is that his obviously inferior offense is borderline unplayable in the playoffs, and his elite defense is at a position the Cs are fine at.

He couldn't defend any of the guys that Grant is called to in the playoffs, and he'd be on the bench anyway since he destroys spacing with his bad offense.
 

Auger34

used to be tbb
SoSH Member
Apr 23, 2010
9,602
Kings and Pacers are great fits. If OKC decides to start really going for it, they make sense too.

The Pacers could overpay him and still do a declining contract, which would make Grant a significant asset on the back end of the deal.
Im not so sure about the Kings being a great fit. I think they’ve got wing sort of covered with Huerter, Keegan Murray and Harrison Barnes. I think their biggest needs are 2 giard and rim protection (neither of which Grant helps with).

Packers I can definitely see but I am unsure if a team that’s where they are now and on their developmental path would want to spend 20M on a very low upside player like Grant
 

HomeRunBaker

bet squelcher
SoSH Member
Jan 15, 2004
30,347
Im not so sure about the Kings being a great fit. I think they’ve got wing sort of covered with Huerter, Keegan Murray and Harrison Barnes. I think their biggest needs are 2 giard and rim protection (neither of which Grant helps with).

Packers I can definitely see but I am unsure if a team that’s where they are now and on their developmental path would want to spend 20M on a very low upside player like Grant
Barnes is a UFA this summer and it doesn’t seem like the Kings are high on him returning. Interesting that he also signed a declining contract 3.5 years ago so I’m clearly off on saying these are rare with younger players.
 

the moops

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 19, 2016
4,754
Saint Paul, MN
There are currently 63 players that make 20 million or more per year. I know the cap is going up, and there are plenty of rookie scale guys who deserve at least 20 million, but I am having a tough time thinking that IND is going to make Grant their highest paid player or SAC is going to make him their 2nd highest player
 

JakeRae

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 21, 2005
8,167
New York, NY
There are currently 63 players that make 20 million or more per year. I know the cap is going up, and there are plenty of rookie scale guys who deserve at least 20 million, but I am having a tough time thinking that IND is going to make Grant their highest paid player or SAC is going to make him their 2nd highest player
This is like the inverse of the discussions we’ve historically had where some posters (many the same arguing for a big contract for Grant) have argued Smart isn’t possibly worth in the ballpark of $20 million/year despite overwhelming evidence that he was. Grant isn’t. Last offseason we were debating if he was even worth 4/60, and it seems like Brad wasn’t willing to go that high. In a season where he is virtually the same player he was last year (regular season version rather than the defensively improved playoff version) it’s really hard to see how some people now think he’s worth 30% more than that simply because he increased the value he is publicly saying he wants.
 

Auger34

used to be tbb
SoSH Member
Apr 23, 2010
9,602
This is like the inverse of the discussions we’ve historically had where some posters (many the same arguing for a big contract for Grant) have argued Smart isn’t possibly worth in the ballpark of $20 million/year despite overwhelming evidence that he was. Grant isn’t. Last offseason we were debating if he was even worth 4/60, and it seems like Brad wasn’t willing to go that high. In a season where he is virtually the same player he was last year (regular season version rather than the defensively improved playoff version) it’s really hard to see how some people now think he’s worth 30% more than that simply because he increased the value he is publicly saying he wants.
Yeah I think this is right on. My guess is that Grants best offer is $17 or $18M and the Celtics match (mostly for the reason Kenny Powers has been pointing out).

Personally, I am probably among the biggest Grant haters on this board (I find him incredibly annoying with the constant bitching and complaining about literally everything and his vertical of maybe getting over 2 phone books stacked on top of each other can bite him at the worst possible times) but I think you have to match pretty much anything he gets just so you don’t lose the value and the salary spot
 

joe dokes

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 18, 2005
30,614
This is like the inverse of the discussions we’ve historically had where some posters (many the same arguing for a big contract for Grant) have argued Smart isn’t possibly worth in the ballpark of $20 million/year despite overwhelming evidence that he was. Grant isn’t. Last offseason we were debating if he was even worth 4/60, and it seems like Brad wasn’t willing to go that high. In a season where he is virtually the same player he was last year (regular season version rather than the defensively improved playoff version) it’s really hard to see how some people now think he’s worth 30% more than that simply because he increased the value he is publicly saying he wants.
I think the difference this year is less about Grant and more about the team around him. He's basically the same peg; this year, management has made the hole into which he fits closer to the exact right size.
 

benhogan

Granite Truther
SoSH Member
Nov 2, 2007
20,368
Santa Monica
Last offseason we were debating if he was even worth 4/60, and it seems like Brad wasn’t willing to go that high. In a season where he is virtually the same player he was last year (regular season version rather than the defensively improved playoff version) it’s really hard to see how some people now think he’s worth 30% more than that simply because he increased the value he is publicly saying he wants.
Most of the Grant extension/RFA debate last summer happens on Page 19/20 of this thread

Nobody, other than @lovegtm was comfortable going over $60M for Grant. He also called the TimeLord extension which also had folks squirming at the time. Credit where credit is due.

Most rumors had Boston wanting to pay him a "TL-level extension"
I'm guessing folks have caught Championship fever here (which is fair) since Grant hasn't really exploded numbers-wise.
 

TripleOT

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 4, 2007
7,783
Most of the Grant extension/RFA debate last summer happens on Page 19/20 of this thread

Nobody, other than @lovegtm was comfortable going over $60M for Grant. He also called the TimeLord extension which also had folks squirming at the time. Credit where credit is due.

Most rumors had Boston wanting to pay him a "TL-level extension"
I'm guessing folks have caught Championship fever here (which is fair) since Grant hasn't really exploded numbers-wise.
Horford, TL, and Grant earn around $41 million this season. Next season, AL and TL will make around $21 million. I don’t see a big problem if Grant’s value in the league is a $20 million salary. $40 or so million for their three core bigs. $57 or so million for their three core guards Smart, White, and Brogdon. Max for the Jays. Fill the rest of the roster with low salary specialists like Hauser and vetmin ring chasers.
 

HomeRunBaker

bet squelcher
SoSH Member
Jan 15, 2004
30,347
Horford, TL, and Grant earn around $41 million this season. Next season, AL and TL will make around $21 million. I don’t see a big problem if Grant’s value in the league is a $20 million salary. $40 or so million for their three core bigs. $57 or so million for their three core guards Smart, White, and Brogdon. Max for the Jays. Fill the rest of the roster with low salary specialists like Hauser and vetmin ring chasers.
I agree with this. It’s almost like Horford’s contract was structured as it was with Grant in mind……and it very well could have. We shall see.
 

benhogan

Granite Truther
SoSH Member
Nov 2, 2007
20,368
Santa Monica
Horford, TL, and Grant earn around $41 million this season. Next season, AL and TL will make around $21 million. I don’t see a big problem if Grant’s value in the league is a $20 million salary. $40 or so million for their three core bigs. $57 or so million for their three core guards Smart, White, and Brogdon. Max for the Jays. Fill the rest of the roster with low salary specialists like Hauser and vetmin ring chasers.
The reality is Wyc/Celtics have been the beneficiary of some extremely friendly contracts

Tatum got screwed by All-NBA
Brown, Smart, TL, White are all playing on below-market deals
Horford just signed a team-friendly extension
Hauser/Kornet are dirt cheap

Grant's been on a cheap rookie deal.
Ownership doesn't really have an excuse not to match in RFA
 

Reverend

for king and country
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jan 20, 2007
64,533
I find the conversation about what to pay GWill and what he is worth and what to offer him—which are all actually very different things—very frustrating, in part because I think there are actually a few different angles that engage different conversations, and they confound one another.

1. Linear Value Problem A:

It seems to me that many of the posts in this ongoing conversation look at the value of a player on a linear scale of how much value the player has on the market. However, even if players were totally fungible by role with respect to value, they wouldn’t be of equivalent, linear value to different teams.

Even putting aside subjective psychological and emotional utility considerations of the owners, championship is not worth the same amount of revenue to each team. Nor is going a certain distance in the playoffs, or regular season wins. Quantification of improving a team, on its own, even if it were perfectly measurable in terms of wins and losses, still would not tell you how much the move would affect revenue. And that doesn’t even factor in the financial and tax structure of the team business, to say nothing of whether or not considerations of likeability of a player affect revenue. So a given player in the market, considered on a revenue basis, is not equally valuable to all teams, the teams being themselves differently situated in terms of fanbase, location, fan structure, and competitive situation.

2. Linear Value Problem B:

I really don’t understand why there is so much comparison of players in salary for players in very different roles. And I live stats and data. But we don’t do this in other sports; I’ve spent considerable amount of time thinking about how some of this is a function of what makes basketball so great in that the positions are so fluid in terms of what any given player may be called upon to do, and may in fact do! and also why it seems like even great players fall short on evals: We want everything from a player!

In this vein, though, I’m with @Deathofthebambino , @TripleOT , @Kenny F'ing Powers , @HomeRunBaker and… fuck, a few others here ( @Jimbodandy ? fuck if I can keep track; you’re all awesome) in that a pure linear market across players on the market doesn’t make sense when, given different roles, we should be considering different markets for players that feed different needs—with obvious nod to differing revenue goals and opportunities of different teams, as per above.

Like, if you were running a stock car team in NASCAR, do you grab up a really great deal on a replacement transmission, even if it’s a really, really fantastic value for a transmission, if you already have an extra transmission but are short, like, a fucking wheel? For want of a horse, the kingdom was lost. So, like, this isn’t a stock market (no pun intended) so I don’t understand why, for example, Terry Rozier’s salary would come up in a conversation about Grant Williams. If both Rozier and Williams were on the Celtics come playoff time, who plays more against Milwaukee?

3. Two Ships Passing Under a Solar Eclipse

It seems like some people are talking about what the Celtics should offer GWill, some what they should pay him, and some what they should be willing to match. In this vein, I don’t think anyone’s claiming that the Celtics should pay more than anyone else is willing to. But, I think the above should be considerations for what the Celtics might be willing to match even if it seems a bit above market value, which, if we’re talking about a match, is definitionally impossible, but whatever. :)
 

NomarsFool

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 21, 2001
8,255
My best guess is that the Celtics tell Grant that he can go find whatever offer sheet he wants, and they will match it. While it is of course theoretically possible that someone could give him an offer sheet that would hinder the Celtics to put together a good roster around Tatum/Brown, I find this possibility rather unlikely.

So, the question for me is, more out of curiosity, what is that offer sheet likely to be? That is why one would look at similar players/situations and the available landing spots.
 

lovegtm

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 30, 2013
12,240
Barnes is a UFA this summer and it doesn’t seem like the Kings are high on him returning. Interesting that he also signed a declining contract 3.5 years ago so I’m clearly off on saying these are rare with younger players.
Right, it makes sense if the team has a lot of cap space: you agree on the total guaranteed number, the player gets more cash up front (has real value), and the contract can become an insanely good value for the team as the cap rises.

In the Celtics case, however, maybe such a deal wouldn't be that horrible for them? Their real pain hits when Jaylen and Jayson's next deals kick in, ie years 2 and 3 of Grant's upcoming contract.
 

HomeRunBaker

bet squelcher
SoSH Member
Jan 15, 2004
30,347
Right, it makes sense if the team has a lot of cap space: you agree on the total guaranteed number, the player gets more cash up front (has real value), and the contract can become an insanely good value for the team as the cap rises.

In the Celtics case, however, maybe such a deal wouldn't be that horrible for them? Their real pain hits when Jaylen and Jayson's next deals kick in, ie years 2 and 3 of Grant's upcoming contract.
There can always be moves made 2-3 years from now to where that shouldn’t factor in agreeing to a deal or even matching an offer sheet if it has to come to that. Others will be coming off the books who can be replaced with cheaper options or even Grant could be moved.
 

benhogan

Granite Truther
SoSH Member
Nov 2, 2007
20,368
Santa Monica
There can always be moves made 2-3 years from now to where that shouldn’t factor in agreeing to a deal or even matching an offer sheet if it has to come to that. Others will be coming off the books who can be replaced with cheaper options or even Grant could be moved.
This and a CAP jump from TV are probably the best explanations for matching Grant @ $20M, since his adv metric production doesn't scream for it.

It's not a bad stance since Brad/Zarren have been incredibly adept in the trade market.

Having control of their future FIRSTS (ex '28 pick swap) gives them major flexibility to adjust on the fly (and why I was against them using FIRSTS for Poeltl/back-up 5 this year).
 

lovegtm

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 30, 2013
12,240
This and a CAP jump from TV are probably the best explanations for matching Grant @ $20M, since his adv metric production doesn't scream for it.

It's not a bad stance since Brad/Zarren have been incredibly adept in the trade market.

Having control of their future FIRSTS (ex '28 pick swap) gives them major flexibility to adjust on the fly (and why I was against them using FIRSTS for Poeltl/back-up 5 this year).
Note that the '28 pick swap does not impose restrictions on the Celtics' ability to trade 1sts, since they still get a pick that year, hence no Stepien issues.
 

Jimbodandy

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 31, 2006
11,527
around the way
Note that the '28 pick swap does not impose restrictions on the Celtics' ability to trade 1sts, since they still get a pick that year, hence no Stepien issues.
Probably doesn't affect the value of the pick all that much either, as it's unlikely that pick swap even occurs absent a plane crash.
 

HomeRunBaker

bet squelcher
SoSH Member
Jan 15, 2004
30,347
This and a CAP jump from TV are probably the best explanations for matching Grant @ $20M, since his adv metric production doesn't scream for it.

It's not a bad stance since Brad/Zarren have been incredibly adept in the trade market.

Having control of their future FIRSTS (ex '28 pick swap) gives them major flexibility to adjust on the fly (and why I was against them using FIRSTS for Poeltl/back-up 5 this year).
How much value does the 30th pick really carry though? The team would know best but I still don’t think that TL isn’t dead money moving forward and that Poeltl wouldn’t have been a “backup big” but a core piece of our starting 5 during our years making runs at a title.
 

Devizier

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 3, 2000
19,589
Somewhere
How much value does the 30th pick really carry though?
Based on recent trades, the >20 picks don't really carry any value. I think there was an overcorrection after the disastrous Nets trade but the reason why that trade was so disastrous is that everyone involved was at the end of their rope (and obviously so!). Dumping a bunch of picks for an early-mid career role player (or even a later career star) isn't really the same thing.
 

HomeRunBaker

bet squelcher
SoSH Member
Jan 15, 2004
30,347
Based on recent trades, the >20 picks don't really carry any value. I think there was an overcorrection after the disastrous Nets trade but the reason why that trade was so disastrous is that everyone involved was at the end of their rope (and obviously so!). Dumping a bunch of picks for an early-mid career role player (or even a later career star) isn't really the same thing.
Ainge has historically nailed the futures market of these picks and is doing it again in Utah now with the Lakers post-LeBron 1st rounder. There is most definitely a science to forecasting which teams are going to be going throughout a rebuild or retool and when. As you say, this is not that.
 

InstaFace

The Ultimate One
SoSH Member
Sep 27, 2016
22,261
Pittsburgh, PA
It's not a particularly serious comment. I'm sure he's worth something like 20 million in the context of a world wide sports league; he has very marketable talents shared by only by what, 100-200 people on earth, and it's not like athletic strong six foot six guys grow on trees. It's just a huge huge huge amount of money.
oh I know you weren't all that serious. But the concept of "I can't believe these athletes make all this money" is one that, while it can sound frivolous to a certain segment of sports fans, I actually think is an interesting question to understand and think about. One for each of us to make our own intellectual peace with. It might bore some people, but I definitely get the issues people have reconciling that a doctor saving lives makes 1/100th what an NBA player does, no matter how much you enjoy watching sports. I get that it's not some axe you're grinding, but imo it's a fair thing for anyone to have some internal misgivings about.

From a GM's perspective, of course, it's all just a game. They have a certain budget, in some circumstances they can plead for extra budget if they pull certain levers, but ultimately they're just optimizing a resource and trying to bet on certain roster construction or scouting and projections. Players are "worth" what you think they do for your on-court success near and long term, the alternative uses for that money, etc. There's really no benchmarking to the rest of the real world.

From an outside perspective, though, I think about it relative to the greater entertainment landscape. And entertainers are both labor and "the product", frankly that could be a definition of the industry. Anyone who gets paid because someone else will pay to watch them do their thing, whatever that thing might be, is an entertainer. And entertainers are either owners who get whatever profits they generate (think bands doing a tour), or close enough that they get a percentage, basically get a commission like a salesperson - hollywood actors, for example, where the stars with top billing usually get a percent cut. How do you properly compensate someone whose performances brought in $100M? When the top salesperson or trader at Goldman Sachs brings in $100M, nobody blinks at them making $20M. Companies who think their top salespeople are replaceable, who move to cap commissions or play games with comp structures, see a rapid exodus of talent and clients. So it makes sense to me that if your performances bring in that amount of incremental cash, you have a claim to some share of it.

But what about replaceability? There's only one Madonna, or Ed Sheeran, or Rolling Stones, etc. Fans of a famous band or singer will pay to see them, but might not pay the same for any marginally-less-famous act that comes through. The experience isn't interchangeable for the customer. Down one rung, lots of people will go see a movie because Star X is in it, and sometimes they'd be nearly as enthusiastic if it were Star Y (because the plot / trailer / genre matters), but reputation gooses sales considerably. So movie stars are a little replaceable, but their presence (and work) still create a big share of the value. Same with authors. But how replaceable are athletes in a team sport? Can the next-guy-up do just about as good a job? As the Tampa Bay Rays can tell us, you can get someone willing to work for replacement-level MLB wages who is nearly as good - who can win some games and as part of a team can look professional out there. But I guess what the fans are really paying for is winning. They want to watch a winning team, and will pay way more if they think they're going to watch a winner. So the utility curve, the willingness-to-pay curve, probably ends up revolving around the old $-per-WAR metric, or whatever equivalents there are for other sports.

So all of the NBA's 51% share of basketball-related money going to players gets concentrated to those 450 players on the 30 rosters, of whom 1/3 are starters, and another 1/3 of whom are basically on league-minimums anyway - your replacement-level guys, in theory. So the minute there's some NBA player who has any sort of market demand, who can move the needle for them, the amount of money those teams can throw at him is absurd. And it's exacerbated by the max-salary situation, where Lebron or Giannis or Jokic should be making $70M, so because they can't, that excess money usually gets spent on someone who isn't, strictly speaking, worth it.

Part of it I think is how many jobs all that money is spread around. In individual sports, you eat only what you kill. Roger Federer makes $100M, and ATP Rank #500 probably loses money flying to tournaments every week. The NFL has 1600+ roster spots (over half of whom are starters), another 500 reserve / practice-squad spots, and there are a couple of other leagues (CFL, new startup spring leagues) that are trying to meet the market demand. But that's a decent number of pro players to spread the money around, and all but a handful are pretty replaceable. Global soccer (football) has so many pro leagues in every country that it's actually a lot more egalitarian. The average pro soccer player probably makes like $50k / year. No one player can make you an instant winner the way it can in basketball. And for every top star at the fanciest clubs making $X, there's 10 players down a rung making 1/10th X, and 100 players down several rungs making 1/30th X. The money is fragmented among lots more leagues and clubs and players, and it's a very gradual slope downward. With basketball, though, the difference from the NBA vs every other pro league is staggering, it's like an order of magnitude. Shane Larkin was the #2-earning player in the Euroleague last year, at $3.7M; only a dozen or so are above the NBA's minimum-salary cap hit of $1.7M. Average salary in Liga ACB in Spain is $200-500k, but it's actually rare for a player to make even $100k a year overseas. If you're a basketball player by trade,

1% chance you're in the NBA making an absolute killing
2-5% chance you're making a very good living by normal standards but not dwarfing the income of well-educated professionals
20-30% chance you're making a comfortable middle-class salary as one of the average players in a top-10 or top-20 league
60-70% chance you're scraping by on <$2k / month, have at least one other job, and it was probably not a great career decision for you

Kinda reminds me of the pay structure of drug empires from Freakonomics, but that's a fraught comparison. What else does it resemble to me? Entrepreneurs starting a business. Nobody but the most committed socialists think it's completely unfair that a few rare entrepreneurs make a fortune building a great business. And that's partly because they know that for every one media-attention-worthy superstar company, there's dozens of people making a very good living, hundreds who are comfortable and stable but not rich, and a bunch of people (like me!) who tried to start something and failed, and would've been better off working for someone else. There's luck involved, of course, but most people recognize that to a certain extent you make your own luck, and the people at the top of this pyramid had something rare and valuable that most of us don't. Being a genius programmer or marketer, or being a 6'6" brick shithouse with a great 3-point shot, are things not many people are born with, and that's OK in the eyes of most.

I get that the visual and aesthetic difference between Grant Williams vs an average D-1 player who goes overseas and makes $80k / year feels like not much. You watch and you think:That is really worth 200x the money? I suppose one could look at an average salesman and a legendary salesman like Ross Perot and not see a ton of difference on the surface. But those differences manifest into such a huge difference in value to the people who are ultimately the customers of his services. It's still hard for me to believe, but that's how I've made my peace with it, at any rate.
 

Reverend

for king and country
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jan 20, 2007
64,533
My best guess is that the Celtics tell Grant that he can go find whatever offer sheet he wants, and they will match it. While it is of course theoretically possible that someone could give him an offer sheet that would hinder the Celtics to put together a good roster around Tatum/Brown, I find this possibility rather unlikely.

So, the question for me is, more out of curiosity, what is that offer sheet likely to be? That is why one would look at similar players/situations and the available landing spots.
100% I think oftentimes the discussion here about salaries as hinging in player value—largely motivated by real live and enthusiasm for the game and a desire to understand what makes a player good, which is incredibly complicated for basketball even compared to other sports—loses sight of the fact that, with an RFA like Grant, assuming they go there—which, as many have pointed out, is what they did with DPOY, leader, Soul of the Team, and all around super cool guy Marcus Smart—you get to let other bidders set the market.
 

HomeRunBaker

bet squelcher
SoSH Member
Jan 15, 2004
30,347
100% I think oftentimes the discussion here about salaries as hinging in player value—largely motivated by real live and enthusiasm for the game and a desire to understand what makes a player good, which is incredibly complicated for basketball even compared to other sports—loses sight of the fact that, with an RFA like Grant, assuming they go there—which, as many have pointed out, is what they did with DPOY, leader, Soul of the Team, and all around super cool guy Marcus Smart—you get to let other bidders set the market.
Yes absolutely. This is the very definition of what RFA is…..you sign an offer sheet and your team then determines if they wish to match it. We all make it more complicated than it is sometimes.
 

benhogan

Granite Truther
SoSH Member
Nov 2, 2007
20,368
Santa Monica
How much value does the 30th pick really carry though? The team would know best but I still don’t think that TL isn’t dead money moving forward and that Poeltl wouldn’t have been a “backup big” but a core piece of our starting 5 during our years making runs at a title.
It all depends on who is trading a late first

How do you feel about Malcolm Brogdon, Derrick White, and a massive upgrade to Horford from retired Kemba?

A late first in the hands of Brad/Zarren > other GMs
 

HomeRunBaker

bet squelcher
SoSH Member
Jan 15, 2004
30,347
It all depends on who is trading a late first

How do you feel about Malcolm Brogdon, Derrick White, and a massive upgrade to Horford from retired Kemba?

A late first in the hands of Brad/Zarren > other GMs
I disagree with this premise. A late fitire first from the Celtics projects to be pretty close to 30th regardless of who are GM is. The 1st that we got from Brooklyn and from Memphis when Ainge was GM projected to be lottery and even high lottery based on their future rebuilding they were about to be facing.
 

Smokey Joe

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 9, 2001
1,179
I disagree with this premise. A late fitire first from the Celtics projects to be pretty close to 30th regardless of who are GM is. The 1st that we got from Brooklyn and from Memphis when Ainge was GM projected to be lottery and even high lottery based on their future rebuilding they were about to be facing.
There are situations where even the 30th pick has outsized value because it is a “first”. Just like agents prefer to announce the maximum value of a contract even though it is riddled with unlikely incentives, GMs prefer to trade a player for a “first” even if the 31st pick might have been more useful when it came to actually drafting a player. A good GM can use that to get more value back in a trade then is really warranted. That and a 2028 pick swap.
 

benhogan

Granite Truther
SoSH Member
Nov 2, 2007
20,368
Santa Monica
I disagree with this premise. A late fitire first from the Celtics projects to be pretty close to 30th regardless of who are GM is. The 1st that we got from Brooklyn and from Memphis when Ainge was GM projected to be lottery and even high lottery based on their future rebuilding they were about to be facing.
Sure those Bklyn/Memphis picks were expected to be better, that's obvious. Toronto's sub .500 record probably helped them land Poeltl.

My point is Brad/Zarren have used a first as a main asset to acquire 3 players (White, Brogdon, Horford). All three trades have been heists IMO. B/Z have quickly developed a track record of efficiently using one first at a time. I'd bet on them to continue to do this most summers. Getting 1.5 seasons of Muscala for 2nds is another shrewd move. The current Celtic front office has absolutely crushed it for 18 months now, while Danny stumbled his last 2 seasons in Boston.

This has led me to not second-guess what B/Z have done with Grant one iota, even though I like GW more than most.
 

lovegtm

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 30, 2013
12,240
Sure those Bklyn/Memphis picks were expected to be better, that's obvious. Toronto's sub .500 record probably helped them land Poeltl.

My point is Brad/Zarren have used a first as a main asset to acquire 3 players (White, Brogdon, Horford). All three trades have been heists IMO. B/Z have quickly developed a track record of efficiently using one first at a time. I'd bet on them to continue to do this most summers. Getting 1.5 seasons of Muscala for 2nds is another shrewd move. The current Celtic front office has absolutely crushed it for 18 months now, while Danny stumbled his last 2 seasons in Boston.

This has led me to not second-guess what B/Z have done with Grant one iota, even though I like GW more than most.
Note that Toronto sent a 2024 protected pick for Poeltl, presumably with the plan to be better then.

There are situations where even the 30th pick has outsized value because it is a “first”. Just like agents prefer to announce the maximum value of a contract even though it is riddled with unlikely incentives, GMs prefer to trade a player for a “first” even if the 31st pick might have been more useful when it came to actually drafting a player. A good GM can use that to get more value back in a trade then is really warranted. That and a 2028 pick swap.
Yes, for some reason 1sts seem to grease the wheels of trades for quality roleplayers.

This is why it's so important to find even one star, because it's drastically cheaper in draft capital to acquire roleplayers than it is to acquire top-30 and up guys.
 

MyDaughterLovesTomGordon

Member
SoSH Member
Jun 26, 2006
14,308
Whatever clown was doing pbp for TNT the other day casually referred to Grant as “one of the strongest players in the league” as though that was well understood.

I think we who watch him all the time maybe underrate him because we see so much of the foolishness with the refs and him getting clowned on by the Cs vets (in a little brother way), but national observers see how he can guard Giannis/Embiid/Jokic and value that very highly.

Dude can take a hit in the lane like very few other players in the league and it can be pretty funny watching big dudes be surprised when they can’t shove him out of the way.

And I think it’s turning into a bit more respect from the refs finally. They know he moves his feet well and stays vertical with his arms and they’ll let him bang down there.
 

Jimbodandy

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 31, 2006
11,527
around the way
Whatever clown was doing pbp for TNT the other day casually referred to Grant as “one of the strongest players in the league” as though that was well understood.

I think we who watch him all the time maybe underrate him because we see so much of the foolishness with the refs and him getting clowned on by the Cs vets (in a little brother way), but national observers see how he can guard Giannis/Embiid/Jokic and value that very highly.

Dude can take a hit in the lane like very few other players in the league and it can be pretty funny watching big dudes be surprised when they can’t shove him out of the way.

And I think it’s turning into a bit more respect from the refs finally. They know he moves his feet well and stays vertical with his arms and they’ll let him bang down there.
I remember it coming out not long after we drafted him that he was a deadlift/squat maniac and could probably pull more than anyone on the team as a 21yo. He has a crazy strong base, more than Semi (who while also strong, was a bit more of a beach body). I don't know if Grant can pull more than Marcus, but I'd bet a week's pay that they know.
 

bigq

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
11,188
Whatever clown was doing pbp for TNT the other day casually referred to Grant as “one of the strongest players in the league” as though that was well understood.

I think we who watch him all the time maybe underrate him because we see so much of the foolishness with the refs and him getting clowned on by the Cs vets (in a little brother way), but national observers see how he can guard Giannis/Embiid/Jokic and value that very highly.

Dude can take a hit in the lane like very few other players in the league and it can be pretty funny watching big dudes be surprised when they can’t shove him out of the way.

And I think it’s turning into a bit more respect from the refs finally. They know he moves his feet well and stays vertical with his arms and they’ll let him bang down there.
I think it has been said before however in some respects Grant Williams is an improved iteration of Semi Ojeleye. Both have similar builds (6’6”, 240 lb), Grant has an advantage in standing reach (8’8.5” vs 8’6”) and they have identical wingspans (6’9.75”). Both are strong as an ox and can stand their ground against Giannis and Embiid.

The similarities pretty much end there. Grant Williams is a superior basketball player. He fits this team so well. I hope he sticks around.
 

lovegtm

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 30, 2013
12,240
I think it has been said before however in some respects Grant Williams is an improved iteration of Semi Ojeleye. Both have similar builds (6’6”, 240 lb), Grant has an advantage in standing reach (8’8.5” vs 8’6”) and they have identical wingspans (6’9.75”). Both are strong as an ox and can stand their ground against Giannis and Embiid.

The similarities pretty much end there. Grant Williams is a superior basketball player. He fits this team so well. I hope he sticks around.
Yeah, Grant is able to actually "contest" "shots" from "opposing players". Useful quality in a basketball player!
 

bigq

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
11,188
Yeah, Grant is able to actually "contest" "shots" from "opposing players". Useful quality in a basketball player!
Yep.

Semi Ojeleye had 19 blocked shots in 4111 regular season minutes played.

Grant has 22 blocks in 1600 minutes played this season.

Bigs could simply shoot over Semi with little worry of being stripped or blocked.

In Semi's defense he rarely fouled opposing players. He had a career per 36 foul rate of 2.6 vs 4.2 for Grant Williams.

In retrospect, Grant has become what we had hoped Semi could grow in to - a high quality 3 and D wing who can play 25+ minutes per game off the bench, spell starters including occassional spot starts, make his threes at decent volume and match up well with elite bigs.
 

Eddie Jurak

canderson-lite
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 12, 2002
44,742
Melrose, MA
I think it has been said before however in some respects Grant Williams is an improved iteration of Semi Ojeleye. Both have similar builds (6’6”, 240 lb), Grant has an advantage in standing reach (8’8.5” vs 8’6”) and they have identical wingspans (6’9.75”). Both are strong as an ox and can stand their ground against Giannis and Embiid.

The similarities pretty much end there. Grant Williams is a superior basketball player. He fits this team so well. I hope he sticks around.
My favorite Semi fun fact is this:
  • Semi Ojeleye career blocked shots: 19 (in 4,111 career minutes)
  • Sam Hauser career blocked shots: 14 (in 1,061 career minutes)
  • Grant has >19 blocks in each of his 4 seasons. His blocks are way down this year but he still has more than career Ojeleye.
 

Euclis20

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 3, 2004
8,227
Imaginationland
My favorite Semi fun fact is this:
  • Semi Ojeleye career blocked shots: 19 (in 4,111 career minutes)
  • Sam Hauser career blocked shots: 14 (in 1,061 career minutes)
  • Grant has >19 blocks in each of his 4 seasons. His blocks are way down this year but he still has more than career Ojeleye.
At least Hauser has NBA size. Freaking Isaiah Thomas had more blocks in a Celtics uniform (22) than Semi.
 

lovegtm

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 30, 2013
12,240
My favorite Semi fun fact is this:
  • Semi Ojeleye career blocked shots: 19 (in 4,111 career minutes)
  • Sam Hauser career blocked shots: 14 (in 1,061 career minutes)
  • Grant has >19 blocks in each of his 4 seasons. His blocks are way down this year but he still has more than career Ojeleye.
Wow, thanks for that one. I didn't realize it was that bad.

Hauser has his issues getting bodied, giving up drives, and giving up easy fadeaways, but he's an NBA athlete who does more shot contesting and rebounding than you'd think. Semi was an NBA athlete only in theory, or some very specific spots, despite being thicc and jacked.
 

Fishy1

Head Mason
SoSH Member
Nov 10, 2006
6,136
Wow, thanks for that one. I didn't realize it was that bad.

Hauser has his issues getting bodied, giving up drives, and giving up easy fadeaways, but he's an NBA athlete who does more shot contesting and rebounding than you'd think. Semi was an NBA athlete only in theory, or some very specific spots, despite being thicc and jacked.
It was awful. The man had a preternatural ability to never get his hands on the ball. Just 76 steals in 4000 minutes too, which isn't as bad... but is still bad.
 

slamminsammya

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 31, 2006
9,423
San Francisco
I don't think its an exaggeration to say Semi was historically bad at blocking shots. Like, its hard to find guys with nontrivial minutes who had fewer blocks since they started measuring those. I remember looking this up once.

Which is so incredible because he had a 40 inch vert.
 

JakeRae

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 21, 2005
8,167
New York, NY
To return to the discussion of how good/valuable Grant is, last night the team was fully healthy and Grant was the 9th man, playing only 6 minutes. That’s obviously partially a matchup issue, but it also underscores that Grant is the 8th man on this roster and has competition for that spot in Hauser.
 

benhogan

Granite Truther
SoSH Member
Nov 2, 2007
20,368
Santa Monica
To return to the discussion of how good/valuable Grant is, last night the team was fully healthy and Grant was the 9th man, playing only 6 minutes. That’s obviously partially a matchup issue, but it also underscores that Grant is the 8th man on this roster and has competition for that spot in Hauser.
Hauser with 3 blocks was also kind of funny since people discussed that very point (in regards to SEMI) yesterday.
 

bigq

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
11,188
Hauser with 3 blocks was also kind of funny since people discussed that very point (in regards to SEMI) yesterday.
3 blocks in 13 minutes for Hauser last night is 50X Semi's career blocks/minute rate.
 

Koufax

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
5,946
I don't think its an exaggeration to say Semi was historically bad at blocking shots. Like, its hard to find guys with nontrivial minutes who had fewer blocks since they started measuring those. I remember looking this up once.

Which is so incredible because he had a 40 inch vert.
Yes, but his strategy on defense was never to jump. He never went for an upfake but the strategy had its drawbacks.
 

benhogan

Granite Truther
SoSH Member
Nov 2, 2007
20,368
Santa Monica
Yes, but his strategy on defense was never to jump. He never went for an upfake but the strategy had its drawbacks.
SEMI had a few good defensive games against Giannis early on. BUT as soon as opponents realized he would NEVER contest, he was toast. Guys would back him down and just jump over him like it was practice.

Grant has some of these problems when he's guarding Jokic/Embiid/Bam (expected), and why freelance/help Rob is so important to the Celtics D in those games.
 

Euclis20

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 3, 2004
8,227
Imaginationland
SEMI had a few good defensive games against Giannis early on. BUT as soon as opponents realized he would NEVER contest, he was toast. Guys would back him down and just jump over him like it was practice.

Grant has some of these problems when he's guarding Jokic/Embiid/Bam (expected), and why freelance/help Rob is so important to the Celtics D in those games.
This is it exactly, plus Grant seems to have slightly better lower body strength. There's not a giant gulf between them defensively beyond that, the major difference is on offense. In his 3rd and 4th season Semi was hitting about 37% on 3 when he was wide, wide open. That's not terrible but not exactly impressive, and when run off the line he couldn't do anything with the ball. Grant has been shooting 41% from 3 since the beginning of last year (on slightly more contested shots), plus he's shown some ability to drive and score in the paint when guys run at him. It's a fine line between getting $12-$20M annually and playing in Italy, but it's not that fine.