Not really. PJ Tucker got his first real FA contract when he was 29, Grant is 25, and honestly Grant is probably better. He also comes with 1st round pedigree which matters.
Grant “Corner Office” Williams
- Thread starter NomarsFool
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Grant has to hope the playoffs bring another 2022 Bucks-level series for him -- multiple games of announcers saying "Grant WIlliams might be the best defender in the NBA" capped off by a 27 point night to win Game 7. Then his agency can pound hard on recency bias to get some team to think that that is the real Grant.
Mentioned it in the game thread, but jeeze. Grant’s corner office is more like that shitty old cubicle right next to the bathroom right now. He hesitated on several wide open looks tonight and the shots he did take generally looked awful. Not sure if his contract situation is screwing with his head as we draw closer to the end of the season, but him completely self-destructing is really hurting this team. Really, really hope he gets his confidence back and can be the consistent 40+% three point shooter who can reliably spell Al we need once the playoffs roll around. SSS but doesn’t look like Muscala can be depended on succeeding in that role for extended minutes.
I think the contract situation is indirectly hurting his game. Last year, when he caught the ball in the corner he immediately went up with the shot, not worrying about the guy closing in on him, because that was his one option in that moment. Now, he's trying to add the fake/drive/sidestep game to up his value, and even though he's not great at it, it's been just successful enough to make him hesitate, taking him out of his rhythm, killing the effectiveness of his shot. He needs to abandon that part he tried to add and get back to focusing on just shooting 3s
Grant has been a disappointment this season. Instead of coming into the season 10-15lbs lighter and taking the next step as a 3&D WING he looks bulkier/slower.
Let him test the market. I think he may have made a big mistake given how he’s looked. Forget what we offered before the season but can’t imagine that same offer is there now. And if someone offers him something crazy, well, we’ll live.
The Port Cellar is especially salty this morning following last night's double OT loss.
Grant Williams' per 36 rebounds and assists are at career highs this season. His 2P%, 3P% and TS are down slightly compared to last season but still above his career rates. DARKO indicates he is roughly flat to last season - slightly up on D and slightly down on O. There is a hint of recency bias in calling him a disappointment for the season. His recent DNP-CD seems to have affected his confidence and he was noticeably hesitant last night. He is in a rut and has not been shooting the ball well recently. Hope he can find his stroke over the next five weeks. The Celtics need him to be in corner office form for the playoffs.
Grant Williams' per 36 rebounds and assists are at career highs this season. His 2P%, 3P% and TS are down slightly compared to last season but still above his career rates. DARKO indicates he is roughly flat to last season - slightly up on D and slightly down on O. There is a hint of recency bias in calling him a disappointment for the season. His recent DNP-CD seems to have affected his confidence and he was noticeably hesitant last night. He is in a rut and has not been shooting the ball well recently. Hope he can find his stroke over the next five weeks. The Celtics need him to be in corner office form for the playoffs.
Are you saying that you think GW's defense has been bad all year or just recently?
I'm not going back to the thread so maybe I am misremembering but I don't remember people expressing a lot of concern about GW's defense (say) pre-ASB.
Recently, I agree, he looks a bit slower laterally but that could be a lot of things, including just a couple of off-nights.
Grant seems (mostly) like the same player he was last year. That's disappointing but certainly fine. Looking through his historical comparables, a lot of those guys got paid in the 6-12% range in their post-rookie contracts (relative to their contemporary salary cap). That makes sense for a back end rotation player when you account for rookies and other salary controlled guys. If we assume 10% that puts Grant's AAV at around $13M/year.
I'm not sure if I referred to his defense as "bad" this year or even recently. I think I said he was good (defensively) against Embiid last week. But his overall play has been trending down since that Toronto game 6 weeks ago.
I wanted him to use the 2022 playoffs as a springboard (& I suspect he did also by asking for $20M) to take it up a level. He hasn't. He turned 24 a few months ago, he needs to be in the "best shape of his life'. Last year he came into the season lighter & more active. I thought we'd see more of that. I've been progressively lowering my Grant expectations as the season has worn on.
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I know I harp on this all the time but this is one reason why you don’t want contract year players in a specific role on a contender. He is, rightfully so, concerned about playing for a contract whether that’s searching for numbers or looking to expand his skillset. Everyone else is looking to win a championship this spring while recognizing how much Grant has at stake. Different mindsets, not aligned.
Fortunately for us, it’s only Grant and not like the Kyrie year when we had Morris and Rozier, and it breeding to others. As old adage goes, and one Rocco and my old college coach used to always say, “You can have one donkey but when you have two they can breed throughoit the rest of the team.” Not to imply Grant is a donkey only that he’s the one guy whose motivations are not aligned with the team. It’s not his fault it’s just the contractual spot he’s in.
Fortunately for us, it’s only Grant and not like the Kyrie year when we had Morris and Rozier, and it breeding to others. As old adage goes, and one Rocco and my old college coach used to always say, “You can have one donkey but when you have two they can breed throughoit the rest of the team.” Not to imply Grant is a donkey only that he’s the one guy whose motivations are not aligned with the team. It’s not his fault it’s just the contractual spot he’s in.
Kind of a weird game for him last night. He definitely had some big plays, but also seemed to get absolutely torched on defense a few times as well.
I'm not sure I've ever seen a player who yells at the refs, his teammates, and his own coach more than Grant Williams. The only people who aren't in his line of fire are the opposition; he's cool with them.
Like so many jerks, the kid can dish it out but can't take it.
Let him test the market and match if you must (because there's no other way to replace his production, such as it is).
Until then, though, let him jaw his way down to $14mil a year.
Let him test the market and match if you must (because there's no other way to replace his production, such as it is).
Until then, though, let him jaw his way down to $14mil a year.
Maybe I'm too close to it, but is him loudly telling Mitchell he's gonna make them both (followed by bricking both of them) equivalent to Nick Young?
View: https://youtu.be/JG_wClmLUh8
Obviously Jaylen did almost this exact same thing not too long ago against New York, but a) he didn't talk shit right before, and b) he had the opportunity to flip the script the very next game (and he was able to take advantage). I'm not sure Grant is even in the game at the end if either Horford or Tatum were available, it's unlikely he's gonna get a redemption chance any time soon. That's not a good thing for him.
View: https://youtu.be/JG_wClmLUh8
Obviously Jaylen did almost this exact same thing not too long ago against New York, but a) he didn't talk shit right before, and b) he had the opportunity to flip the script the very next game (and he was able to take advantage). I'm not sure Grant is even in the game at the end if either Horford or Tatum were available, it's unlikely he's gonna get a redemption chance any time soon. That's not a good thing for him.
If you’re gonna talk the talk you gotta walk the walk. Grant losing bigly street cred points here.
I thought the Cavs performance at the end where they all stood in the lane and meandered about and generally fucked with Grant was kind of bullshit and would not have been allowed with a star player.
But you still gotta hit one!
But you still gotta hit one!
One look at his face told you all you needed to know. He was clearly nervous and uncomfortable. I felt the “I’m gonna hit both” was more for Grant to psyche himself up vs. trash talk but who knows. All I do know is that he had a practice shot to get the nerves right and he still missed 2. Just can’t do that if you’re not some Chris Dudley/Shaq type.
When he stood there frozen in between shots for 25 seconds without stepping off the line I was pretty sure how this was going to end. I mean, stepping off to regroup is taught in 5th grade camps, wtf?
Yes, the pct on 2nd FT’s is around 5-6% higher than the first iirc. To be fair, the second WAS closer. Ugh.
A delay-of-game warning, at the least, I would think. Mitchell probably deserved to get T'd up. But he's a superstar, so that wasn't going to happen.
That might have been one situation where your own coach calls a TO to settle things down; my guess is if JM did that, they would not have allowed the same shenanigans after the time out. It drove me nuts, can imagine it messed with the shooter, although in the NBA it shouldn't.
Grant did not do himself any favors buy standing there and engaging with Cavs players. Take a step back and gather yourself to focus. I get that everyone on the floor, especially the Celtics playing on a back-to-back, was gassed. That was all mental.
I think they could have at least given a verbal warning with some hand-clapping, "let's go guys, get settled or we'll hand out a T," kind of thing.
So much of that was NBA status stuff. Like with Marcus and Donovan kidding with each other earlier in the game, that's Marcus low-key establishing that, hey, we're peers, you're not some superstar above me, I'm the fucking DPOY, bro. Similarly, Mitchell was letting Grant know he very much wasn't his level and that he was going to fuck with him. It's on Grant there to step up - he's got to puff out his chest and then follow up and maybe he levels up a little; or he's got to ignore it and just do his thing and win the game. What he did was a real ego blow and I'm definitely worried that lingers.
It's hard to quantify, obviously, but everyone who's played sports knows you've got to believe you can do it if you want to actually do it. I'm not sure Grant believed he could do that.
That makes sense. The last guy who entered the lane from behind did get pushed back by the ref, but by that time it was already way too late.
Grant's a tough guy. I think he's going to come out pissed of and eager to prove himself the rest of the season, and so long as he doesn't externalize that -- which is a real fucking risk with him -- and instead focuses on what he can do better, he'll be fine.
He all but made that second free throw, a centimeter or two in the other direction and it goes in and we all sigh heavily.
He can do whatever he wants as long as he makes 1 of 2 free throws, which 80% ft shooters do 96% of the time.
I think that scene had more to do with the fact that Mitchell was teammates with Tatum, Brown, Smart and Kemba (and Derrick White! And Ime Udoka!) on the USA's 2019 FIBA World Cup squad, and they basically all spent a month in China together chilling and starting most of the games together. The Celtics' core knows Donovan Mitchell better than almost any other non-teammate. Mitchell isn't just an opponent, he's their bro, and so if a falling-out-of-bounds Smart has to spike the ball on Mitchell's sprawled-out ass to keep possession, Smart's going to let him know that he's still his bro.
One crucial, I’d argue dumbass, play was Jaylen sprinting after a lunging and falling out of bounds Mitchell that allowed him to throw the ball off his leg. That’s like JR Smith-level BBIQ on a play that seals victory if Jaylen recognizes Mitchell’s options should be reach the ball.
Agreed...Jaylen does a couple of brain freezes a game
He is still a great player but it happens with JB
Yes, for sure, this too. Couldn't remember what the exact connection was.
I wasn't totally sold on Mitchell as a superstar, but that dude has been really fun to watch in the Cs games this year. His shot making is next level.
It is very noticeable how much he is passing up shots right now. Draymond without the passing and leadership skills.
Maybe the FTs will be a wakeup call for him because right now he is not getting paid.
Maybe the FTs will be a wakeup call for him because right now he is not getting paid.
I remember thinking at the time that the only way that made any sense was if he somehow thought a Celtic last touched it.
Are we really questioning why a guy is playing through something that isn’t preventing him from playing when either 1 or 2 of our bigger frontcourt players are already out? Maybe his DNP-CD wasn’t really that at all?
But what's the motivation to not put Grant on the injury report and let everyone think it's a CD? Are they worried people will target the elbow?
There's definitely a part of me that thinks someone's trying to bail Grant out and give him some cover, but that is maybe a bit conspiratorial. It certainly explains some weird usage patterns. I just don't get why they wouldn't be transparent about it. Most of the time, everyone assumes the injury list is nonsense anyway (did Brogdon really have an ankle problem, or did he just get some scheduled downtime?).
There's definitely a part of me that thinks someone's trying to bail Grant out and give him some cover, but that is maybe a bit conspiratorial. It certainly explains some weird usage patterns. I just don't get why they wouldn't be transparent about it. Most of the time, everyone assumes the injury list is nonsense anyway (did Brogdon really have an ankle problem, or did he just get some scheduled downtime?).
As the late aughts philosopher Kevin Garnett noted, anything is possible so this story may all be a ruse to give Williams cover.
That said, he has struggled more than usual of late and generally looks more tentative than earlier in the year so an injury might explain those things.
Grant Williams, like Smart, has a lot of detractors amongst Cs fans and its understandable. The thing I don't get is that some folks here seem to be enjoying his struggles because they don't like him or it validates their view of the size of his next contract.
Meanwhile, if the Cs hope to compete for a title this season they need the absolute best version of Williams. It strikes me that anyone rooting for another Cs banner should be rooting like hell for Grant to have his best season ever. It doesn't feel like that's happening but people do cheer for all sorts of different outcomes besides winning.
That said, he has struggled more than usual of late and generally looks more tentative than earlier in the year so an injury might explain those things.
Grant Williams, like Smart, has a lot of detractors amongst Cs fans and its understandable. The thing I don't get is that some folks here seem to be enjoying his struggles because they don't like him or it validates their view of the size of his next contract.
Meanwhile, if the Cs hope to compete for a title this season they need the absolute best version of Williams. It strikes me that anyone rooting for another Cs banner should be rooting like hell for Grant to have his best season ever. It doesn't feel like that's happening but people do cheer for all sorts of different outcomes besides winning.
Everyone has injuries all the time and maybe this was something that flared up during warmups after the report came out? At that time the only beneficiary of it being announced at game time is the opponent. That would be an easy “injury” to not report or really be too concerned about. Probably unlikely I was only throwing it out there as a greater than zero chance.
I'm not sure that people are cheering for Grant to play poorly for any reason. But when he does, there are definitely some people who feel like their view of him is validated. This doesn't seem to go away like ever. Smart, Jaylen, same thing.
I like watching Grant Williams play. I think when he’s at his best he’s a critical component of the team, and his clear limitations ever since he started complaining about his elbow a month ago have been an underappreciated part of the Celtic’s mediocre play in that time. I hope he gets $20 million/year and I hope it comes from Wyc’s pocket. Anybody who watched the game or the replays knows his missed free throws had nothing to do with his elbow.
Grant has a lousy media cycle so he floats out a 'oh, my arm' leak. Please.
If you can be on the court then no excuses. Otherwise sit.
Was his recent DNP-CD really elbow related?
If you can be on the court then no excuses. Otherwise sit.
Was his recent DNP-CD really elbow related?
I didn’t watch any of the ESPN all access on the C’s, but Grant was obviously featured. Did they show him doing any lifting or work with his arms? If there was an injury they weren’t putting on the report you’d think they wouldn’t want him doing that kind of work on camera
I don’t think anyone is rooting for Grant to do badly.
I don’t even think it’s a case of people’s views being validated about him as an actual player either (i agree with you it is that way with Smart and Brown). IMO because Grant talks/complains/gestures SO much that he catches more shit from fans when he fucks up.
People may like him more for it or dislike him because of it but Grant is just an annoying player. Russillo and Simmons bring it up when they pod together a bunch (Russillo recently called him the Michael Jordan of wildly gesturing for a challenge at every possible call). For a guy who is in his position, a borderline starter, he has a very outsized personality and act and it seems to wear on teammates, coaches and fans.
As HRB said if you talk the talk you have to walk the walk.
Every Celtic fan is cheering for Grant to play well, succeed, and get paid.
We do critique/debate the performance of Celtic players, coaches, rotations, wins/losses, trades, FA, front office moves, salary cap, RFA, the 15th man, roster spots, two-ways, etc etc etc which is kind of the point of SoSH/MBPC.
Grant is no different. He is the only key player that isn't locked up past this season, so his RFA is of interest. I like Grant a lot (my header is a giveaway) but definitely try not to let that obfuscate what Brad/Zarren are doing in RFA.
You can be a Celtics fan and still criticize different aspects of the team/players, they aren't mutually exclusive.