Grant “Corner Office” Williams

HomeRunBaker

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As a side note, the absolute best part of that broadcast of an otherwise tough game to watch was Scal saying that Zarren gave him specific instructions on keeping Danny away from discussions about the officiating. Scal almost couldn't help himself as he kept wanting to drag the refs - he goes there a fair bit - but then let everyone in on why he could not. Scal was like a kid who knows its wrong to go "there" but cannot seem to stop themselves from getting a closer look.
Ainge would have blown a gasket if that 4Q review went to Chicago.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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-The play where Grant actually got the call he was about to call it a flop but thought better of it and said something like “good hustle”
On the play where GW got the call, Scal said: "The Refs have not been kind to GW but this time go ahead Danny."

Danny said: "Well Grant right here, he's fighting over the screen well and it looks like he gets his feet caught with Vuc coming off it but he's competing, using his body, not afraid of contact, good job by Grant getting the call."
 

Bleedred

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Grant Williams is a limited player in almost all the ways that he is criticized for on this board, but he put in a really nice performance tonight. Stout on the glass, smart, setting excellent screens, pretty damn decent defense and even posted up Kyrie in the first half. Plus, he has the confidence of the head coach to be a vital late minute sub and a serviceable NBA player for spot minutes in important games. Again, he's super limited and not anything to get too excited about, but he's not the dishrag of a player that some would suggest.
 

radsoxfan

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he's an ok 5, he showed it again tonight
Depends on the matchup.... but a team with a broken down Blake Griffin and Nicolas Claxton as the only "bigs" helps.

He does look better on D and is switchable enough to play a useful role in certain situations.
 

Jimbodandy

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Depends on the matchup.... but a team with a broken down Blake Griffin and Nicolas Claxton as the only "bigs" helps.

He does look better on D and is switchable enough to play a useful role in certain situations.
Yeah he's fine against this team. Didn't even get exposed too badly in ISO, but we won't get away with that forever. They'll be targeting him Sunday with Kyrie and Harden, if they have any brains at all.

I'd keep his minutes limited to "let Tristan catch his breath" shifts.
 

lovegtm

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Yeah he's fine against this team. Didn't even get exposed too badly in ISO, but we won't get away with that forever. They'll be targeting him Sunday with Kyrie and Harden, if they have any brains at all.

I'd keep his minutes limited to "let Tristan catch his breath" shifts.
The thing is, they're already targeting Tristan with Harden. Grant's probably about the same in that matchup, maybe a bit better.

It's a good matchup series for Grant.
 

Jimbodandy

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The thing is, they're already targeting Tristan with Harden. Grant's probably about the same in that matchup, maybe a bit better.

It's a good matchup series for Grant.
Yeah you're right. Tristan's extra length doesn't help much there, and Grant might have a small footspeed advantage over him.
 

PedroKsBambino

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I agree, this is the kind of series matchup where Grant has utility. He's a matchup-dependent useful 5 who can play 15 minutes effectively when other team is small; he is then a deeper bench (10th man) 4 who can play 10 minutes when someone is hurt/resting. That's about it absent developing a much better shot and/or some other skill.
 

Van Everyman

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It’s crazy to think Grant has only been here two seasons and never played with MaMo/Horford/Baynes. The stop-and-bubble makes the last two seem like 3 1/2.
 

Cesar Crespo

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4th big who plays 10-15 minutes a night and may rack up some DNP-CDs sounds about right.

I never heard the Brandon Clarke comparison.
 

JM3

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4th big who plays 10-15 minutes a night and may rack up some DNP-CDs sounds about right.

I never heard the Brandon Clarke comparison.
I've made the Clarke comp several times because Grant was a poor man's Clarke when they drafted him over him.

They were both low ceiling undersized older guys. Clarke was better in college with more translatable skills. Both a questionable archetype for modern NBA, though.
 

benhogan

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The Draymond Green comps were pipe dreamy. Maybe a 1% ceiling possibility at some point?

PJ Tucker was/is a much more realistic ceiling (started by Texas/Tenn coach Rick Barnes)
 

Cesar Crespo

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benhogan

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Agreed, Brad should rotate all 3 of the Centers and lean towards youth/upside. TL hasn't played much over his 3yrs here, the good news is that he has improved quite a bit. I'm guessing he could improve with added floor time? A beef Center is the cheapest, most fungible, available player, in the NBA. Tristan is that in my opinion.

I believe PJ Tucker is the type of player Grant can aspire to. Rick Barnes started this comp & it feels apt due to body type/style of play. PJ fires 72% of his 3s from the corner & makes 38%. That stretches the D, especially when he was playing with Harden/Gordon, who liked to fire above the break.

With the Celtics, it's critically important to develop a corner 3pt shooter. ~90% of Brown/Tatum 3s come from above the break this season, where they are highly efficient. Kemba also shoots 95% of his 3s above the break. Grant launching from the corner opens up the floor for them to drive. Super SSS, but Grant is 12/17 from corner 3s this season, which aligns with his 10/17 3pt shooting in the playoffs last year. I suspect during COVID break last year, he set up at Camp Kemba and worked on it. His stroke and pocket look solid.
Brad is wasting JayCrew minutes by playing them with the double BIG clog patrol. Brad should continue exploring Grant's corner 3s by playing him with Tatum/Brown and start one of the three Centers.

As far as using Grant as a Center, I can see it against a guy like Bam for small stretches. BUT Grant's lack of height really gets exposed when the rest of the rotation is small.

The Draymond Green comp now feels kind of pipe dreamy even for this Granite stan ;)
Dray's defense is much better. I thought Grant's D was trending there, but he hasn't been as good on the perimeter this season. Maybe cutting pounds would increase footspeed and help
I doubt all those scouts were using benhogan's SoSH musings for their Dray comp

As you know I walked it back
 

Cesar Crespo

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I doubt all those scouts were using benhogan's SoSH musings for their Dray comp

As you know I walked it back
I've heard the comp made elsewhere. Tucker too. Not Clarke but apparently that was a thing.

As a 4th big, I'm fine with him. Hopefully he's getting closer to 10 minutes a game than 20, though.

For the most part, all of these scouting reports have been in line with "current" SoSH evaluations. As a whole, anyway.
 

JM3

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I've made the Clarke comp several times because Grant was a poor man's Clarke when they drafted him over him.

They were both low ceiling undersized older guys. Clarke was better in college with more translatable skills. Both a questionable archetype for modern NBA, though.
Oops, traded out of 20 & drafted GW 22 when BC went 21.

Here was my comp of the 2 from July, but I've made it elsewhere before:

Not sure that "serviceable 15 minute per game guy" should be the upside you're going for with the 22nd pick - although I'm sure he can be that. He basically is that now. If people are good for 15 minutes, they play for more than 15 minutes.

Of course, it's probably better than taking Carsen 33rd...

I'm sure this has been beat to death here, but going from the 20th pick in 2019 (Thybulle drafted 20th/Brandon Clarke 21st) & turning that into 24 & 33 (drafting Grant 22nd when he was a poor man's Clarke), turning 24 (Ty Jerome) & Baynes' expiring $5.4m into the Bucks 2020 1st via the Suns, drafting Carsen with 33 & then using the #30 (BANE!) to get off Kanter's $5m & get what appears to be imaginary "future draft pick compensation" from the Grizzlies* is quite a run of yikes & explains a lot of the Celtics roster construction issues after Ainge did such a good job of accumulating the picks to begin with (#20 was from the Jeff Green trade to the Clippers).

*It looks like they are actually getting a '23 2nd with some crazy rules, but it might actually be a good 2nd?
 

benhogan

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I've heard the comp made elsewhere. Tucker too. Not Clarke but apparently that was a thing.

As a 4th big, I'm fine with him. Hopefully he's getting closer to 10 minutes a game than 20, though.

For the most part, all of these scouting reports have been in line with "current" SoSH evaluations. As a whole, anyway.
The only way Grant could get close to 20mpg is if there is a rash of injuries, COVID positives or he shoots 3s as he did in the Disney bubble

First things first, he better show up in phenomenal shape

He's 12-15, deep bench, match-up specific player on this roster until further notice
 

Jimbodandy

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The only way Grant could get close to 20mpg is if there is a rash of injuries, COVID positives or he shoots 3s as he did in the Disney bubble

First things first, he better show up in phenomenal shape

He's 12-15, deep bench, match-up specific player on this roster until further notice
Phenomenal shape...I don't think that anyone would complain about that. What I liked about the linked piece was one scout suggesting (I'm paraphrasing) that the team should work with him to pick a lane. Beefy small 5, fine. Quicker guy who can stay in front of most 4s and some 3s, also fine. But the team should decide what's best and make sure that he's training to that track. Last year's "slow and weak" isn't much good to us. Even the 37% isn't really very necessary if he's a hydrant on defense, since Al and Nesmith can do that.
 

benhogan

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Phenomenal shape...I don't think that anyone would complain about that. What I liked about the linked piece was one scout suggesting (I'm paraphrasing) that the team should work with him to pick a lane. Beefy small 5, fine. Quicker guy who can stay in front of most 4s and some 3s, also fine. But the team should decide what's best and make sure that he's training to that track. Last year's "slow and weak" isn't much good to us. Even the 37% isn't really very necessary if he's a hydrant on defense, since Al and Nesmith can do that.
Yep, Grant was a meatball of a mess last season. Even my Grant Play! tinged glasses can't spin anything more positive than what those scouts put up.

Most of those comments would be roasted around here
 

radsoxfan

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Eastern conference scout 2 seems to have the right outlook:
“He’s fine as your 12th-to-15th guy. He’ll never hurt you if that is his role. He stays ready. He can do just enough offensively to be fine. But if you need him to play 25-30 minutes a night or, God forbid start, you’re in trouble. That’s when teams will expose him.”


A guy who won’t hurt you as long as he’s a 12th-15th man. Sounds about right.

However, it should be noted that I would likely not hurt the team as a 12-15th man either.
 

Jimbodandy

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Eastern conference scout 2 seems to have the right outlook:
“He’s fine as your 12th-to-15th guy. He’ll never hurt you if that is his role. He stays ready. He can do just enough offensively to be fine. But if you need him to play 25-30 minutes a night or, God forbid start, you’re in trouble. That’s when teams will expose him.”


A guy who won’t hurt you as long as he’s a 12th-15th man. Sounds about right.

However, it should be noted that I would likely not hurt the team as a 12-15th man either.
That is the nicest post about Grant that you have ever made. Good to have you on team Granite.
 

JM3

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The Cs roster construction issues had more to do with Kryrie being turned into KW and KW's knees being turned into mush than anything that happened with the players you mentioned.
Pretty sure that's why the Celtics weren't good enough to win a title, not why Ainge screwed up the end of the roster. Turned out it was an easy enough fix, though.
 

benhogan

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The Cs roster construction issues had more to do with Kryrie being turned into KW and KW's knees being turned into mush than anything that happened with the players you mentioned.
110% agree

I wonder how much Danny & Co knew (or should have known) Ky-Hex was gone before the trade deadline?

No doubt letting Irving, MaMo and Horford just walk away for free hurt roster construction. Signing Kemba was Ainge's ego saving blunder that compounded it.
 

lexrageorge

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110% agree

I wonder how much Danny & Co knew (or should have known) Ky-Hex was gone before the trade deadline?

No doubt letting Irving, MaMo and Horford just walk away for free hurt roster construction. Signing Kemba was Ainge's ego saving blunder that compounded it.
Ainge had no choice with Horford; that move to Philly truly came out of the blue, and he had zero leverage to work any sort of trade. MaMo's departure was addition by subtraction, I doubt the current roster changes much at all even if they got a 5M TPE out of the deal (I think the thing formerly known as base year compensation would have come into play), and there was probably not a lot there at the deadline for him either.

But I agree Ainge and his staff should have had more awareness of the Kyrie situation before the trade deadline; it would not have been that much work to find out. Hoping to pick up an obvious LA-bound Davis and hoping that would be enough to retain Kyrie was silly, not wishful, thinking.

The karmic news is that oft injured players with a history of chronic knee problems do not magically become durable when they turn 30 (which Kyrie will in March). Some team is going to be paying dearly for his post-cliff years, which may arrive sooner than his supporters expect.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Pretty sure that's why the Celtics weren't good enough to win a title, not why Ainge screwed up the end of the roster. Turned out it was an easy enough fix, though.
Ainge was coming off a year the season prior where he had screwed up the roster construction as well. That’s the problem I saw……this wasn’t a one-off, it was being to occur regularly. To steal a Yogi quote, “If you don’t know where you’re going, you might wind up someplace else.” This is a perfect description of Ainge’s final couple of seasons.
 

lovegtm

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Grant looks a lot more interesting as a thinner, not-that-undersized 4 than he did masquerading as a 5.
 

Cesar Crespo

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Grant looks a lot more interesting as a thinner, not-that-undersized 4 than he did masquerading as a 5.
If he did get advice to gain weight at anytime during his NBA career, the person who gave them that advice should be fired. There's 0 reason for him to gain weight even if his role is small ball 5. How does being slower and fatter help someone in the small ball 5 role exactly? Plus strength was never a concern. Even at a smaller weight, he's plenty strong.

Can someone name a few players who Slim Williams can't guard that Fat Williams can? I can't really think of any. It's not like he mysteriously lost all his strength by shedding some fat. While he probably didn't gain tons of agility in the process, I'm guessing he gained some. Even if the gains are minimal, any sacrifice of strength for gains in agility is worth it. He's always going to be one of the stronger players in the NBA so it's not something he should be spending much time on. He's just a naturally strong, beefy dude.
 

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Can someone name a few players who Slim Williams can't guard that Fat Williams can? I can't really think of any. It's not like he mysteriously lost all his strength by shedding some fat. While he probably didn't gain tons of agility in the process, I'm guessing he gained some. Even if the gains are minimal, any sacrifice of strength for gains in agility is worth it. He's always going to be one of the stronger players in the NBA so it's not something he should be spending much time on. He's just a naturally strong, beefy dude.
He has said that he can dunk now, FWIW.
 

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If he did get advice to gain weight at anytime during his NBA career, the person who gave them that advice should be fired. There's 0 reason for him to gain weight even if his role is small ball 5. How does being slower and fatter help someone in the small ball 5 role exactly? Plus strength was never a concern. Even at a smaller weight, he's plenty strong.

Can someone name a few players who Slim Williams can't guard that Fat Williams can? I can't really think of any. It's not like he mysteriously lost all his strength by shedding some fat. While he probably didn't gain tons of agility in the process, I'm guessing he gained some. Even if the gains are minimal, any sacrifice of strength for gains in agility is worth it. He's always going to be one of the stronger players in the NBA so it's not something he should be spending much time on. He's just a naturally strong, beefy dude.
I'd be surprised if he lost any functional strength at all, if he was on a supervised program.

A little quickness will help him a lot, especially on switches.
 

benhogan

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If he did get advice to gain weight at anytime during his NBA career, the person who gave them that advice should be fired. There's 0 reason for him to gain weight even if his role is small ball 5. How does being slower and fatter help someone in the small ball 5 role exactly? Plus strength was never a concern. Even at a smaller weight, he's plenty strong.

Can someone name a few players who Slim Williams can't guard that Fat Williams can? I can't really think of any. It's not like he mysteriously lost all his strength by shedding some fat. While he probably didn't gain tons of agility in the process, I'm guessing he gained some. Even if the gains are minimal, any sacrifice of strength for gains in agility is worth it. He's always going to be one of the stronger players in the NBA so it's not something he should be spending much time on. He's just a naturally strong, beefy dude.
a 6-week offseason, after his rookie year, probably had a greater effect on his weight gain/out-of-shape than someone whispering in his ear to become a human pear.

Grant and Smart both showed up fat after a short break from Disney bubble basketball. COVID season
 

Cesar Crespo

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a 6-week offseason, after his rookie year, probably had a greater effect on his weight gain/out-of-shape than someone whispering in his ear to become a human pear.

Grant and Smart both showed up fat after a short break from Disney bubble basketball. COVID season
Smart has a habit of showing up fat, though. Now that he's getting older, he can't lose it as easily during the season. Hearing he looks slimmer is a positive.

And a 6 week off season works both ways. He became a human pear in 6 weeks. He may have become something much worse with a regular off season. Who knows.
 

benhogan

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Smart has a habit of showing up fat, though. Now that he's getting older, he can't lose it as easily during the season. Hearing he looks slimmer is a positive.

And a 6 week off season works both ways. He became a human pear in 6 weeks. He may have become something much worse with a regular off season. Who knows.
well we have witnessed a regular off season this year and before his rookie season

he looked fit both times. BUT he still has a lot to prove to become a top 10 rotational player
 

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If Grant can hit the three at 38-40%, he becomes a nice piece to play with the Jays: doesn’t need the ball, has a lot of switchability on defense, lots of physicality and hustle. Taking a leap in year three to become a quality rotation guy would be a huge plus to this team.
 

Eddie Jurak

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If Grant can hit the three at 38-40%, he becomes a nice piece to play with the Jays: doesn’t need the ball, has a lot of switchability on defense, lots of physicality and hustle. Taking a leap in year three to become a quality rotation guy would be a huge plus to this team.
Grant missed the first 25 three point attempts of his NBA career. Since then, and including playoffs, he has hit 84/221, or 38%. In his second year, including playoffs, he hit 50/133 or 37.6%. So, not so much a question of 'if.'
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Last year, according to NBA.com and if I am doing the maths correctly (never a sure thing), GW took something like 129 3Ps. About 3 of those came when defenders were closer than 4 feet. Something like 95 of his 3Ps were "wide-open" (closest defender was 6+ feet away).

In ordre for GW to really balance the floor, he's going to need to start taking - and making - some closely contested 3Ps because otherwise teams will continue to load up towards the ISO players and gamble that they can rotate back out to GW.
 

lovegtm

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Yeah, he clearly slowed down his release to get consistency. It needs to get a lot quicker for him to be interesting, but that's far from an impossible adjustment. His shot looks very clean in general, and he has good touch. Not an awful starting point for a 23 year-old working on the most learnable skill.
 

Cesar Crespo

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Grant missed the first 25 three point attempts of his NBA career. Since then, and including playoffs, he has hit 84/221, or 38%. In his second year, including playoffs, he hit 50/133 or 37.6%. So, not so much a question of 'if.'
Looking at %'s don't really tell you much anyway. I'm sure the poster meant 38% on real volume where the other team feels the need to defend Grant.
 

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Looking at %'s don't really tell you much anyway. I'm sure the poster meant 38% on real volume where the other team feels the need to defend Grant.
I don't think that even the Williams family expects him to ever become a gravity well. If he can give some half decent minutes on defense against kinda bigs, grab the occasional loose ball, and hit 38% of wide fucking open shots, he's a useful guy to have around. With cement shoes, he's a practice body.

No beef with the idea of him continuing to work on his shot. The more teams have to care, the better.