Grantland Article on Canadian College Basketball Dynasty

[reggiecleveland]

http://grantland.com/features/carleton-university-basketball-canada-syracuse-tyler-ennis-kansas-andrew-wiggins/
 

But here’s what might come as a surprise: The Carleton University Ravens are good. Not just “good for a Canadian school,” but really, legitimately good. They have a point guard who would start for most any team in America and a big man who drop-steps more beautifully than most players dunk. They scored 95 in an exhibition win over Wisconsin, 10 more points than any team has scored on the Badgers all year.1 They hung with Cincinnati on its home floor, beat TCU and Towson by 26 apiece, and they took Syracuse to overtime, playing the Orange tougher than most of the ACC.2
 

 
I will add the last team to beat them in championship was my old team the U of Saskatchewan. We beat them in Ottawa no less.

 

[Fred not Lynn]

Let's talk about WHY Canada seems to be developing some very good players these days...Reggie, any ideas?

 

[Infield Infidel]

The article does a pretty good rundown of the reasons.
 
I think the bigger question is why aren't American players coached as well. My wholly unresearched theory is that a lot of American education is so poor and schools kowtow to athletes, so the NCAA has to limit practice time so players can focus on classwork because too many athletes start out behind, whereas Canadian public education is better and the kids are better prepared for college, and can practice all they want without any effect on their studies. Since they can practice more, they are better coached. 

 

[Fred not Lynn]

The part I didn't see mentioned is a Canada wide implementation of Long Term Athlete Development principles. National governing bodies for each sport have implemented this with varied enthusiasm (hockey, for instance, talks the talk in a big way, but doesn't walk the walk), and I was curious what Reggie's experience on this has been with Basketball Canada.

 

[Kliq]

Another possible reason would be because the NBA has had a presence in Canada now for a full generation. Kids that grew up with the Raptors (and for the Grizzlies) being a big part of their lives the entire way. If you were 15 when the Raptors started playing, chances are you probably already have your favorite sports, and chances are basketball wasn't one of the. But if you grew up with the Raptors and the NBA being there since you were a toddler, the chances are much greater that kids chose basketball as their sport.

 

[Jettisoned]

The article does a pretty good rundown of the reasons.
 
I think the bigger question is why aren't American players coached as well. My wholly unresearched theory is that a lot of American education is so poor and schools kowtow to athletes, so the NCAA has to limit practice time so players can focus on classwork because too many athletes start out behind, whereas Canadian public education is better and the kids are better prepared for college, and can practice all they want without any effect on their studies. Since they can practice more, they are better coached. 

 
I wouldn't necessarily say that the average Canadian public high school is better than the schools the average middle class kid in the USA goes to. The guys who struggle with schoolwork just get filtered out due to not having the grades to be accepted to university, regardless of good they are at basketball. 

 

[Stanley Steamer]

I wouldn't necessarily say that the average Canadian public high school is better than the schools the average middle class kid in the USA goes to. The guys who struggle with schoolwork just get filtered out due to not having the grades to be accepted to university, regardless of good they are at basketball.

I think you're right about the high schools.
The differences seem to lie in the place and importance of college athletics. In the US, it's become an enormous business and cultural phenomenon. It's not at all about the education, though savvy student-athletes find a way to take advantage of the opportunity given to them in a scholarship. There really isn't much in the way of sports scholarships in Canada. Most good hockey players work their way up the ladder playing junior, while some find scholarships at US schools. CIS hockey is almost an afterthought. The coach is right when he says that maybe in the US they take college sports too seriously, while in Canada they don't take them seriously enough. It would be nice if CIS sports took on more relevance, and maybe an increase in scholarships is a way to do that. But it would also be nice if the NCAA would take a step back, and realize what the mission of a college or university is. I don't think it's meant to be a waystation for talented, at times marginally-educated star athletes to show off their talents; the university gaining dollar after dollar, while the player enhances his celebrity for the ultimate payoff in the pros.
Nothing makes 'em holler like the almighty dollar, Allen Toussaint sang.
Maybe the Canadian system is just fine the way it is.

 

[Sprowl]

Maybe the Canadian system is just fine the way it is.

 
I think the Canadian system gets it about right. Student-athletes get some accommodation (flexibility on assignment deadlines, for example, in recognition of travel schedules), but not much special financial consideration. I work at a Canadian university that probably makes as much allowance for football and basketball recruitment as any, yet it's still a fairly small part of campus life compared to US schools. Athletes are expected to measure up in academics, and are not part of a special elite receiving special privileges.

 

[Spacemans Bong]

It's just not basketball. Canadian baseball is doing pretty well too - there are more decent Canadian players than ever, and Joey Votto is the best position player in Canadian history - and Canadian soccer, while it hasn't yet translated into the national team, is producing more decent players (it doesn't help that the two best Canadian players decided to play for somebody else). 
 
I'm guessing at least some of it is anti-matter to hockey, which is ludicrously overblown by the Canadian media, is increasingly too expensive to play, and has a pretty miserable development structure with 16 year olds living hundreds of miles from home and being encouraged to drop out of school so they can practice more on dumping the puck. 

 

[reggiecleveland]

Few Things
 
Canada has much better schools in poor neighborhoods. The public schools in inner city Tornont, where a lot of our stars are coming from are as well funded or better funded than the schools in rich parts of town. Teachers, admin, coaches can earn promotions by working with the disadvantaged. Where I teach if you have not taught at a school with most First nations 9indian) kids you are not getting promoted.
 
Basketball has resisted the urge to be competitive at early ages. My son is a good player at age 12 but in the winter he plays on neighborhood team, and I like most of the coah's teach skills abd don't care if we win. But the secondary part is elite kids have a lot of great options in the summer.
 
Basketball Canada has had two approaches
 
1. Get as many kids playing as possible. Don't set up road blocks likes tiering ten year olds, tryouts, etc at young ages. Grow the roots. They promote a lot of summer tournaments. 10 years ago the provincial basketball associations selected teams for summer championships, maybe 30 boys and 30 girls. Now they try to run a summer circuit of tournaments and pick the teams from the hundreds of kids playing. Plus Basketball Canada does not care if a kid make the provincial team, they evaluate the kids on their own.
 
2. Get the true studs together and coach them up. Wiggins et al have been at elite training centres for a long time. The focus is on athleticism, not just who is the best 12 year ol at left hand layups. My son can dunk on an 8 foot hoop at 5-4, age 12, and touch nine feet. He is far from the most skilled kid, but he has some hops and has been invited out to Sundays workouts, though we are usually at the rink. ut the reals top guys get flown to camps in the summer and play at high level for about a month from about age 15 on. These camps are timed to not conflict with the ABC and Nike camps south of the border.
 
3.Advise kids about school choices.This is where Rautins has been great. There are no rules about how much a national team can be involved in recruiting. Rautins has accumulated enough trust with the players and has enough talent in the pipeline NCAA coaches want his blessing with recruits. He makes sure guys are going to places they will play and get a fair shake, At one time a lot of Canadian kids went to shitty NAIA or NCAA places just to say  they "went to the states." He has become a pretty big talent broker and coaches south of the border now want to treat Canadians players the right way. This includes the attitude towards playing for team Canada. At one time NCAA coaches told guys not to play for Canada. Now they want their guys there talking to the 16 and 17 years olds about coming to the same school.
 
4. Lastly the top Canadian schools play a lot of NCAA teams in the pres season and very good DIv 2, or NAIA and even Div 1 schools at Christmas. Ironically this has increased the number of good americans playing in Canada, but at the top level Canadian college ball is pretty good, though the depth is weak. The Canadian schools beating or competeing with those teasm and shit kicking the shitty schools has encouraged the Div 2 level kid to stay in Canada, where by graduation they have improved a lot more than they would have setting picks at Buttfuck state.

 

[reggiecleveland]

 
Ottawa, not Carleton but the Ravens cross city rival, defeated the Hoosiers.

 

[reggiecleveland]

https://ca.sports.yahoo.com/blogs/eh-game/ottawa-gee-gees-johnny-berhanemeskel-third-win-row-044000835.html
 
Article on Canadian college hoops teams playing Div 1 teams

 

[Fred not Lynn]

So...What is Canada's current status on the international front? In theory, there should be a pretty rosy future, with guys like Wiggins, Olnyk, Bennet et al, and maybe some leadership on or off the court from an aging Steve Nash (he's got some Basketball Canada GM type role now, doesn't he?), one would think Canada would be a legitimate medal contender at a World Cup or Olympic type event...but I am not hearing much buzz on that...

 

[Brickowski]

 
I think the Canadian system gets it about right. Student-athletes get some accommodation (flexibility on assignment deadlines, for example, in recognition of travel schedules), but not much special financial consideration. I work at a Canadian university that probably makes as much allowance for football and basketball recruitment as any, yet it's still a fairly small part of campus life compared to US schools. Athletes are expected to measure up in academics, and are not part of a special elite receiving special privileges.

We have that system in the US in the Ivy League and NESCAC (Amherst, Williams, Wesleyan, Tufts, Bowdoin, etc.).  But that's not where the big bucks are.
 
Maybe if the NCAA loses a few more lawsuits a more rational system (like the Canadian approach you describe) will become more prevalent in the US.

 

[CaptainLaddie]

Other than it's the NCAA (National being the operative word), is there a good reason schools like Carleton aren't being offered membership to a mid-major?

 

[Infield Infidel]

There's a Canadian school in D2, Simon Fraser in BC. So the things stopping them are the school applying and meeting the requirement to have 14 sports in D1 or fewer sports in D2. Not sure their other sports are as good as basketball. 

 

[reggiecleveland]

There are some requirements in terms of athletic budget size too I believe. But as said the big block is going into the NCAA in so many sports. UBC has looked at it closely and wants to go Div 1.
 
On the international level Basketball Canada is hoping to get into the Olympics in 16 then be very good by 20. This summer was tough since so many of the best guys are young and in the NBA summer league. There is significant concern about not being able to play together very much. They could be like Russia in hockey where they are better on paper.Another worry is what they call the Magloire attitude. He chose never to play at a time when Nash was playing and big body was the weakness of the team. He set a precedent Wiggins, et al have sword to reverse, but this summer the young guys spent more less time with the national team than we all hoped.

 

[Fred not Lynn]

My concern with the Canada national team was whether there was issue getting them to play. I would hope that along with building the structure under which these kids developed, Basketball Canada built in a sort of indoctrination to the national team concept and a sense of loyalty/guilt/obligation that will aid in recruiting. What's the point for Basketball Canada in developing all this talent of none of it ever represents the country internationally?

(That's sort of a rhetorical question, but I am going to step aside and await a few answers now...)

 

[Grin&MartyBarret]

Beat Memphis by 32 tonight.

 

[reggiecleveland]

Well first of all there are a few people that say about 10 or so guys in Toronto running club teams developed most of the talent, not basketball Canada. Wiggins et al have talked the talk, been part of BC all the way up. Time will tell.
 
Article on Memphis game.
 
http://ottawacitizen.com/sports/local-sports/ravens-rattle-tigers-cage-with-92-60-win