Greatest Sox Defensive Players, by position.

Saints Rest

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Inspired by the talk of the best defensive CF in the Ellsbury thread, I thought I would start a thread for the best defensive player at each position.

My nominees (my viewing goes back to the mid-70’s):
P - (intentionally left blank)
C - Tony Pena
1B - Doug Mientkiewicz
2B - Pedroia
SS - Alex Gonzalez
3B - Mike Lowell
LF - Yaz
CF - JBJ
RF - Evans

I think Mookie might give Dewey a run.
Yaz was a pretty good 1B as my 10-yo self remembers. Youk also had that great run with no errors.
I am giving heavier weight to the pre-corpse version of Mike Lowell, while Wade Boggs turned into a pretty good fielder by late in his career.
Pudge had a longer career but I think peak Pena might have been better than peak Pudge.
 

Mugsy's Jock

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George Scott would be your first baseman.

Edit: with the obvious caveat that it’s difficult to nominate anyone you didn’t see play live for yourself. Dom DiMaggio was reputedly impeccable.
 

jmcc5400

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He'll likely be overlooked between Dewey and Mookie, but wanted to get a word in for Shane Victorino's 2013.
 

Kliq

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Right, and Harry Hooper by all accounts belongs in the conversation with Evans and Mookie.
And let’s not forget Tris Speaker; who may have been the best defensive CF in history.

Did Alex Gonzalez have his own thread called “Alex Gonzalez Porn” that was just his great defensive plays?
 

Soxfan in Fla

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Jose Iglesias wouldn't make that games played threshold, but I'd be hard pressed to recall a better SS.
Was going to post this myself.

Edit: Only player 98 total games for the Sox at first glance so I guess doesn’t meet the threshold. Just amazing with the glove.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Rick Burleson for SS? Although he only won one Gold Glove, this website says that he "had a combined dWAR of 12.1 during his tenure in Boston, and his Range Factor per nine innings of 5.25 as a shortstop ranks second all-time at the position."

Luis Aparacio was probably the best defensive SS career-wise that was ever played a Red Sox team but he was something like 35 when he got to the Red Sox so I'm not sure he's the best RS defensive SS.
 

Was (Not Wasdin)

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Dewey is confusing to me. Many of us saw him play, and his reputation was as an excellent defensive player. But WAR (B-ref WAR anyway) hates his defense. He was a full time starter in the outfield from 1973-1986, played some OF and some 1B in 1987 and 1988. Career dWAR is -3.8, and had only three years above 1.0 dWAR. He won 5 straight gold gloves from 81-85, but in the last four of those seasons he had negative dWAR (I know winning GGs has nothing to do with actual fielding skills, but still). if you looked at just the dWAR numbers, and didnt know who it was, you would say "this person is not a good fielder". So what's the deal here? Is this just one of those situations where WAR doesn't accurately reflect what happens on the field?
 

Van Everyman

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I think I'd take Pokey Reese over Gonzalez.
How much SS did Pokey play tho? I mean we all remember the "Better Than Jeter Play":


But my recollection was that he played more 2B than SS until Bellhorn took over that year (and, in fact, made the final putout of the ALCS that year):


Also, while JBJ's been amazing I would argue that Coco Crisp's 2007 season in CF was among the best I've ever seen at that position.
 

BobVealeFan

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I started watching the Red Sox in the early seventies, so I'm pretty partial to Reggie Smith. I was bummed when the traded him and didn't like seeing him in the multiple world series' with the Dodgers. Happy for him but wished he was still with the Red Sox. Anyway, who could forget Reggie the Rifle, oops that was Reggie Leach of the Flyers.
 

DJnVa

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How much SS did Pokey play tho? I mean we all remember the "Better Than Jeter Play":


But my recollection was that he played more 2B than SS until Bellhorn took over that year (and, in fact, made the final putout of the ALCS that year):


Also, while JBJ's been amazing I would argue that Coco Crisp's 2007 season in CF was among the best I've ever seen at that position.
He played 71 games at SS for Boston and 30 at 2B, but only 96 total games, so he doesn't reach the cutoff either actually.

I would love to see the Reese catch super-imposed over the Jeter play.
 

Savin Hillbilly

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Dewey is confusing to me. Many of us saw him play, and his reputation was as an excellent defensive player. But WAR (B-ref WAR anyway) hates his defense. He was a full time starter in the outfield from 1973-1986, played some OF and some 1B in 1987 and 1988. Career dWAR is -3.8, and had only three years above 1.0 dWAR. He won 5 straight gold gloves from 81-85, but in the last four of those seasons he had negative dWAR (I know winning GGs has nothing to do with actual fielding skills, but still). if you looked at just the dWAR numbers, and didnt know who it was, you would say "this person is not a good fielder". So what's the deal here? Is this just one of those situations where WAR doesn't accurately reflect what happens on the field?
Two factors that seem relevant here: first, as I understand it, dWAR for both BBref and FG before 2002 uses systems that rely on comparing play-by-play data per fielder to expected results, which is a somewhat more blunt instrument than the systems they're using now.

Second, BBref incorporates positional adjustments into dWAR, and since RF is a negative adjustment, that skews the numbers downward. Dave Parker, known as a fine defender, has a career dWAR of -14.8. Even Roberto Clemente averaged less than 1 positive dWAR per year over his career by that system. If you look at just defensive runs, which doesn't include the positional component, Evans ranks 11th all-time. He was pretty good.

That said, he definitely lost some range as he hit his 30s; he was a bit of a JBJ type in his 20s -- elite defense with a talented but somewhat trick-or-treat bat. In his 30s, he flipped the script and became an offensive beast with a good but not extraordinary glove. He won his last Gold Glove in 1985, and it probably should have been a few years sooner.
 

bankshot1

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Frank Malzone should get some attention at 3rd base. Before Brooks Robinson locked down the GG at 3rd for the better part of two decades, Malzone was a 3-time GG at 3rd.
 

Al Zarilla

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Another vote for Piersall in center. 6 1/2 years starting in CF for the Sox. Great range and better arm. Even though the minimum time playing for the Sox is pretty short in this exercise, JBJ needs some more time out there to compare with Piersall.

Edit, I mean that Piersall's arm was even better than his fielding, not comparing his arm to JBJ's.
 
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teddywingman

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Dewey is confusing to me. Many of us saw him play, and his reputation was as an excellent defensive player. But WAR (B-ref WAR anyway) hates his defense. He was a full time starter in the outfield from 1973-1986, played some OF and some 1B in 1987 and 1988. Career dWAR is -3.8, and had only three years above 1.0 dWAR. He won 5 straight gold gloves from 81-85, but in the last four of those seasons he had negative dWAR (I know winning GGs has nothing to do with actual fielding skills, but still). if you looked at just the dWAR numbers, and didnt know who it was, you would say "this person is not a good fielder". So what's the deal here? Is this just one of those situations where WAR doesn't accurately reflect what happens on the field?
More proof that dWAR is garbage.
 

mauf

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Dewey is confusing to me. Many of us saw him play, and his reputation was as an excellent defensive player. But WAR (B-ref WAR anyway) hates his defense. He was a full time starter in the outfield from 1973-1986, played some OF and some 1B in 1987 and 1988. Career dWAR is -3.8, and had only three years above 1.0 dWAR. He won 5 straight gold gloves from 81-85, but in the last four of those seasons he had negative dWAR (I know winning GGs has nothing to do with actual fielding skills, but still). if you looked at just the dWAR numbers, and didnt know who it was, you would say "this person is not a good fielder". So what's the deal here? Is this just one of those situations where WAR doesn't accurately reflect what happens on the field?
Rob Neyer has always spoken glowingly about Dewey’s defense, so I expect the issue is dWAR as a measurement tool rather than Dewey not being a good defender. That said, one of the things we’ve learned from analytics is that traditional assessments of outfield defense overstated the importance of good throwing and understated the importance of range, so it’s likely that Mookie is even better.
 

scotian1

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Frank Malzone should get some attention at 3rd base. Before Brooks Robinson locked down the GG at 3rd for the better part of two decades, Malzone was a 3-time GG at 3rd.
Totally agree with this. I don't think there has been a better Red Sox player at third. I started watching the Sox when he played third and have seen them all since. Although I never saw Speaker, his defensive play was something to behold according to everything I have read about him. Played exceedingly shallow and had a great ability to go back on a ball.
 

Lose Remerswaal

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Rob Neyer has always spoken glowingly about Dewey’s defense, so I expect the issue is dWAR as a measurement tool rather than Dewey not being a good defender. That said, one of the things we’ve learned from analytics is that traditional assessments of outfield defense overstated the importance of good throwing and understated the importance of range, so it’s likely that Mookie is even better.
Rob Neyer was 7 when Dwight Evans started his career and Rob Neyer didn't live in Boston so I'm not sure how much of Dewey he saw.
 

mauf

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Rob Neyer was 7 when Dwight Evans started his career and Rob Neyer didn't live in Boston so I'm not sure how much of Dewey he saw.
My point was that other statistical measures must rate Dewey as an excellent defender, precisely because Neyer didn’t see him play (much) and wouldn’t have affirmed his status as an excellent defender based solely on opinions of the fans and writers who did watch him a lot in the ‘70s and ‘80s.
 

Mike F

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I saw a bit of Dominic on at the end of his career and considerably more of Piersall. I was young and much of my watching was sporadic TV. I'd consider both as good or better than JBJ, who I rank a close third. Obviously I never saw Speaker. Additionally I'd give Frank Malzone a lot of love at third. Ditto for George Scott at first.
 

terrynever

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Another vote for Piersall in center. 6 1/2 years starting in CF for the Sox. Great range and better arm. Even though the minimum time playing for the Sox is pretty short in this exercise, JBJ needs some more time out there to compare with Piersall.

Edit, I mean that Piersall's arm was even better than his fielding, not comparing his arm to JBJ's.
One big problem with comparing center fielders from different eras is ballpark dimensions. Yankee Stadium fences were 436, 457, 461 and 407 from left center to right center. I remember watching on TV when Piersall caught up to a Mantle blast at the monument that stood in deep center.

In the old days, Piersall had 40 extra feet to cover across his territory. 40 feet times the width from left to right center. We will never get to see JBJ race out to the 461 marker but it would have been fun.

Despite this, my vote goes to JBJ.
 

Humphrey

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Rick Burleson for SS? Although he only won one Gold Glove, this website says that he "had a combined dWAR of 12.1 during his tenure in Boston, and his Range Factor per nine innings of 5.25 as a shortstop ranks second all-time at the position."

Luis Aparacio was probably the best defensive SS career-wise that was ever played a Red Sox team but he was something like 35 when he got to the Red Sox so I'm not sure he's the best RS defensive SS.
Aparicio was a statue when he played for the Red Sox. My friends and I used to favor Mario Guerrero over him, not that Guerrero had 5% of Louie's career overall.
 

Humphrey

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George Scott would be your first baseman.

Edit: with the obvious caveat that it’s difficult to nominate anyone you didn’t see play live for yourself. Dom DiMaggio was reputedly impeccable.
I would vote for George Scott I (1966-1971) too. George Scott II (77-79) was a little too heavy to be that good there, not that Scott the first time around wasn't carrying a few extra pounds (in between in Milwaukee he was darned svelte, which was very frustrating).
 

BuellMiller

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My point was that other statistical measures must rate Dewey as an excellent defender, precisely because Neyer didn’t see him play (much) and wouldn’t have affirmed his status as an excellent defender based solely on opinions of the fans and writers who did watch him a lot in the ‘70s and ‘80s.
I vaguely remember Neyer posting something in the early 2000's along to the lines of Trot Nixon was even better defensively than Evans ever was. (But that was probably due to defensive metrics still very much in their infancy, and being even less statistically significant than they are now). (google linked a Chad Finn article with the same reference, but with a dead link to Neyer's book)