Gritty Little White Guys #998

Kliq

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Mar 31, 2013
22,673
I enjoyed watching Pritchard last night, and I'm hopeful that he will be able to contribute this year.

However, and I say this out of general curiosity and it is not meant at all as an attack on any particular poster; I'm wondering how much of the hype that is taking place in this thread (and on different social media outlets) is because Pritchard is white. There is a lot to like about Pritchard for sure; he has clearly worked really hard to get a crack at the NBA and he seems like a nice kid; but why is there so much chatter about him, while Nesmith, who I also thought had a pretty strong debut, doesn't seem to be getting nearly as much hype.

At the same time, Jeff Teague had a very nice game last night for the Celtics, but basically got shit on in the game thread. I get it; Teague is a known quantity and it is fun to dream about what the young kids can become, but Teague and Pritchard have very similar stories. They are about the same size, not blessed with game changing athleticism, were both four star recruits that had to prove their ability in college to get drafted, both late first round picks and assuredly have both worked incredibly hard to get where they are. There might be a lot of cool stories about Pritchard working hard; but EVERYONE who made it to the NBA has worked extremely hard, especially point guards.

Anyway, like a lot of people I've been thinking about unconscious bias more over the past year. There was a discussion in this very thread about Isiah Thomas' comments about Larry Bird, how everyone referred to him as this unbelievable worker while the skills and work ethic of black athletes are taken for granted. I'd love to see Pritchard do well, but I'm also becoming more conscious of the praise he is receiving and if other worthy athletes are getting the same kind of attention, and what that says about fans and society in general.

Also, like everything involving race, there is a Key and Peele skit that it explains it:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IciBKdPlLfE
 

slamminsammya

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Jul 31, 2006
9,193
San Francisco
I enjoyed watching Pritchard last night, and I'm hopeful that he will be able to contribute this year.

However, and I say this out of general curiosity and it is not meant at all as an attack on any particular poster; I'm wondering how much of the hype that is taking place in this thread (and on different social media outlets) is because Pritchard is white. There is a lot to like about Pritchard for sure; he has clearly worked really hard to get a crack at the NBA and he seems like a nice kid; but why is there so much chatter about him, while Nesmith, who I also thought had a pretty strong debut, doesn't seem to be getting nearly as much hype.

At the same time, Jeff Teague had a very nice game last night for the Celtics, but basically got shit on in the game thread. I get it; Teague is a known quantity and it is fun to dream about what the young kids can become, but Teague and Pritchard have very similar stories. They are about the same size, not blessed with game changing athleticism, were both four star recruits that had to prove their ability in college to get drafted, both late first round picks and assuredly have both worked incredibly hard to get where they are. There might be a lot of cool stories about Pritchard working hard; but EVERYONE who made it to the NBA has worked extremely hard, especially point guards.

Anyway, like a lot of people I've been thinking about unconscious bias more over the past year. There was a discussion in this very thread about Isiah Thomas' comments about Larry Bird, how everyone referred to him as this unbelievable worker while the skills and work ethic of black athletes are taken for granted. I'd love to see Pritchard do well, but I'm also becoming more conscious of the praise he is receiving and if other worthy athletes are getting the same kind of attention, and what that says about fans and society in general.

Also, like everything involving race, there is a Key and Peele skit that it explains it:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IciBKdPlLfE
Well we already got a Scott Skiles comparison.

it does see like most of the excitement is because he looked good and made some tough shots, where you normally expect close to nothing from a late first rounder.
 

lovegtm

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Apr 30, 2013
12,001
I think that, outside of hardcore Celtics fans, a good deal of the hype is in good deal because he's white.

For us, the hype is that it's a late-round guard who actually looks competent and can shoot.

In fairness to the outside world, I think a lot of people who had watched the NCAA were really happy when Van Vleet succeeded. There's a desire to see 4-year college stars still be able to work out in the league.
 

benhogan

Granite Truther
SoSH Member
Nov 2, 2007
20,124
Santa Monica
I enjoyed watching Pritchard last night, and I'm hopeful that he will be able to contribute this year.

However, and I say this out of general curiosity and it is not meant at all as an attack on any particular poster; I'm wondering how much of the hype that is taking place in this thread (and on different social media outlets) is because Pritchard is white. There is a lot to like about Pritchard for sure; he has clearly worked really hard to get a crack at the NBA and he seems like a nice kid; but why is there so much chatter about him, while Nesmith, who I also thought had a pretty strong debut, doesn't seem to be getting nearly as much hype.

At the same time, Jeff Teague had a very nice game last night for the Celtics, but basically got shit on in the game thread. I get it; Teague is a known quantity and it is fun to dream about what the young kids can become, but Teague and Pritchard have very similar stories. They are about the same size, not blessed with game changing athleticism, were both four star recruits that had to prove their ability in college to get drafted, both late first round picks and assuredly have both worked incredibly hard to get where they are. There might be a lot of cool stories about Pritchard working hard; but EVERYONE who made it to the NBA has worked extremely hard, especially point guards.

Anyway, like a lot of people I've been thinking about unconscious bias more over the past year. There was a discussion in this very thread about Isiah Thomas' comments about Larry Bird, how everyone referred to him as this unbelievable worker while the skills and work ethic of black athletes are taken for granted. I'd love to see Pritchard do well, but I'm also becoming more conscious of the praise he is receiving and if other worthy athletes are getting the same kind of attention, and what that says about fans and society in general.

Also, like everything involving race, there is a Key and Peele skit that it explains it:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IciBKdPlLfE
It's always good to check ourselves.

No doubt it continues to happen in the sports media on a nightly basis...but a lot less on SoSH.

Draft picks are always binkies, especially the first-year ones.
FWIW I haven't heard one poster pine for Madar (a raw 2nd rounder) to "get a chance/look" over Carsen or Tre (both 2nd rounders).

As far as Nesmith, there were some comps to Tatum on SoSH this morning, which is massive praise.
 
Last edited:

BigSoxFan

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May 31, 2007
47,094
It's always good to check ourselves.

No doubt it continues to happen in the sports media on a nightly basis...but a lot less on SoSH.

Draft picks are always binkies, especially the first-year ones.
FWIW I haven't heard one poster pine for Madar (a raw 2nd rounder) to "get a chance/look" over Carsen or Tre (both 2nd rounders).
Yeah, there is nothing overt here based on what I’ve seen. There are always going to be some unintentional bias (i.e., tendency to compare white to white, etc.). Nothing malicious, of course, it’s just how our brains work in many cases.
 

luckiestman

Son of the Harpy
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
32,622
I enjoyed watching Pritchard last night, and I'm hopeful that he will be able to contribute this year.

However, and I say this out of general curiosity and it is not meant at all as an attack on any particular poster; I'm wondering how much of the hype that is taking place in this thread (and on different social media outlets) is because Pritchard is white. There is a lot to like about Pritchard for sure; he has clearly worked really hard to get a crack at the NBA and he seems like a nice kid; but why is there so much chatter about him, while Nesmith, who I also thought had a pretty strong debut, doesn't seem to be getting nearly as much hype.

If we’re guilty of anything, it is being homers.
 

DJnVa

Dorito Dawg
SoSH Member
Dec 16, 2010
53,850
This is all fair to discuss, but we had 30-50 posts on him being a "white dude" in this thread recently. Is it going to pop up every time he's praised?
 

Light-Tower-Power

ask me about My Pillow
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Jun 14, 2013
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If we’re guilty of anything, it is being homers.
Yeah, and I think he played better than Nesmith did last night. I think we as Celtics fans like to root for the gritty, hard-playing underdog, and Pritchard is that. I do think a lot of white players naturally get that designation.
 

TripleOT

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Jul 4, 2007
7,758
If there are ever fans at TD Garden again, Prichard is going to be a favorite, and probably one of the reasons is he’s a little white guy playing in front of a lot of little white guy fans. Celtics fans didn’t go agog over Aaron Baynes or Kelly O.

Plus there’s the factor of seeing a late first round pick looking so comfortable put there in a league where many rookies look lost.

I’m not saying he’s going to be anywhere the player , and it’s not too common to compare a white player to a Black player, but he has has a similar size, level of craftiness, handle, and mid range confidence of a young Chris Paul. If he becomes a minor, minor, minor league CP3 that’s a win for the Celtics
 

Jimbodandy

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Jan 31, 2006
11,406
around the way
No beef with Kliq checking on this one.

I'm a bit hype on PP now because he can play now. Guys on this team don't typically get rotation minutes out of the gate. We got a guy who seems (SSS) to be ready, and that's huge to me.

Fwiw, I'm way higher on Nesmith as a player. He probably won't earn rotation minutes for a few months. But his ceiling is much higher and even his median projection is much higher. I'm psyched to watch him develop. But it will take time. PP seems ready now, and that's a huge win for a team with depth problems.

If the live games start, and PP is in over his head and no longer looks like a credible rotation player, he'll be back in the Carson Edwards zone for me.
 

Devizier

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One thing I did note in those clips is how much larger Pritchard is compared to Edwards. Carsen has definitely got a gentleman’s 5’11” going for him. Pritchard is Bryant Reeves by comparison.
 

Cesar Crespo

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Dec 22, 2002
21,588
People were pretty hyped about Edwards and Waters going into last season. I don't think it's because Pritchard's white, I think it's because he's a young guy who just had a good game.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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Kliq is entirely justified in making that post - if we all want to be better people these questions need to be asked. I am only speaking for myself but my view is if asking such questions were to bother me, I might take some time to consider my biases.

Also, the vast majority of players who make it to the NBA are incredibly hard workers, including compared to their peer group and other athletes generally (note I said nothing about established players who have already signed contracts - see Harden, James). I have no doubt that Pritchard has maximized every ounce of his ability via hard work but so too has Javonte Green who had only one D1 offer, ground out his four years at Radford and then decided to fight his way on to teams in Europe for the three years prior to landing in Boston.
 

lovegtm

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Apr 30, 2013
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Kliq is entirely justified in making that post - if we all want to be better people these questions need to be asked. I am only speaking for myself but my view is if asking such questions were to bother me, I might take some time to consider my biases.

Also, the vast majority of players who make it to the NBA are incredibly hard workers, including compared to their peer group and other athletes generally (note I said nothing about established players who have already signed contracts - see Harden, James). I have no doubt that Pritchard has maximized every ounce of his ability via hard work but so too has Javonte Green who had only one D1 offer, ground out his four years at Radford and then decided to fight his way on to teams in Europe for the three years prior to landing in Boston.
Pritchard might be better than Javonte right now.

Javonte’s bigger issue is that he’s just not that good, relative to NBA players. I’m glad he’s worked hard and is on the fringe of an NBA career, and I like him, but I don’t think racial bias had anything to do with the difficult path he had to take.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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Pritchard might be better than Javonte right now.

Javonte’s bigger issue is that he’s just not that good, relative to NBA players. I’m glad he’s worked hard and is on the fringe of an NBA career, and I like him, but I don’t think racial bias had anything to do with the difficult path he had to take.
No strong view on the comparison. I was simply pointing out that while people who work hard to maximize their talents should be celebrated, its essentially expected of any non-superstar players in the league - its more of a perceived differentiator versus an actual one imo.
 

DJnVa

Dorito Dawg
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Dec 16, 2010
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I am only speaking for myself but my view is if asking such questions were to bother me, I might take some time to consider my biases.
So you're asking me if I'm biased? Because I was the one that asked if we're going to discuss his race all year, or if last week's discussion and this week's discussion covers us until there's some actual incident besides praising the kid's good game.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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So you're asking me if I'm biased? Because I was the one that asked if we're going to discuss his race all year, or if last week's discussion and this week's discussion covers us until there's some actual incident besides praising the kid's good game.
I did not ask you or anyone a question. I made an observation - I agree that discussing a player's race is inappropriate in terms of a basketball context, but this is a Boston messageboard and the thread for the 26th pick in the draft has been going since draft night while the higher ranked Nesmith's thread died out pretty much right after the draft (the last five 26th picks for reference: Dylan Windler, Landry Shamet, Caleb Swanigan, Furkan Korkmaz and Nikola Milutinov - so Pritchard may well be useful like Shamet, an NBA body like Swanigan and Korkmaz or nothing). I suspect the majority of interest in Pritchard is pure prospect dreaming but we owe it to ourselves to keep an eye on potential biases.

I like this forum with more participants and I don't want people avoiding it because they feel as if they don't belong (unless they exclusionary are types themselves in which case I merely wish them peace). That is my motivation for chiming in. Otherwise, sign me up for a Pritchard hall of fame career.
 

ragnarok725

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Nov 28, 2003
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Maybe, just maybe people have things they value in their fandom. I value every single thing that Marcus Smart brings to the table on the court (excepting maybe his heat check 3 pointers). Put whatever labels you wish on it, but when I watch the limited bits of PP I've been able to, I see some portion of Marcus Smart in his game. There is a tenacity/dirt dog trait that I've always enjoyed in certain athletes, and appreciating it is not a function of skin color, it is for me generally a function of overcoming less than perfect set of physical skills/attributes to achieve what is often seen as less likely. If Marcus Smart has publicly indicated that he's not surprised that PP is having initial success - I'm willing to accept that as confirmation of what I think I see. If that makes Marcus guilty of falling for white hype, then I guess he'll have to live with it. I won't speak for him though, not my place.

I am a huge fan of Jackie Bradley Jr's defensive skills. He makes things look so effortless, so amazing. It isn't his merely God given skills, it's that he's done so many thousands of repetitions of whatever drills he feels necessary to make him so good at what he does (I'd use the term "mastery"). I appreciate that effort. I can say that I often marvel at his incredible results and have to remind myself that he is also an incredible technician in addition to whatever physical skills he possesses. I can't say however that he is getting more out of his physical tool set than he should be expected to or not, I'm not able to judge that in baseball. Jackie is going 1 on 1 against the flight of a baseball - without a peer in direct competition. On a basketball court, competitors are there to resist every effort, to ward off success. Competing physical gifts are often mirrored or overshadowed inches away from a player. Seeing one player achieve in the absence of a physical superiority in those situations or under those conditions is one of the things I find missing from baseball (aside from perhaps the confrontation between pitcher and batter).

I didn't second guess my fandom for IT4, when he was clearly at a significant size disadvantage and was delivering results one would expect from players with far more physical gifts. I didn't second guess my appreciation for Spud Webb (yes, I'm that old) when he was running around working his magic in the face of overwhelming odds due to his physical limitations. I don't second guess my affection and fandom for Tacko Fall who has yet to overcome/harness a different set of physical issues, nor do I hesitate to root for Grant Williams who is working hard to succeed despite not have the physique that Javonte Green is blessed with (and likely works very hard to maintain). I did not root for (other than for laundry purposes) Connor Henry who I thought was a one dimensional player. I do not have an affinity for Robert Williams because he has every physical gift a player could desire, something I cannot identify with - though I do appreciate the reports of him working hard and for laundry purposes hope he reaches his ceiling in Celtic green. Professional sports is littered with names of players who despite physical gifts that many of us could only dream of, couldn't put it together because a) their chosen profession is really really hard one to differentiate oneself, or b) they fell into the trap of relying on their physical gifts and not working hard enough at their 'craft', or c) one of many other reasons

In summary, I'm comfortable with who and how I root for various players, and it's not nor has it ever been because of their color. If anything it is because I am 5'-9" with no hops, and more likely to appreciate those players who are destined to compete professionally "below the rim" as it were (in basketball context). I will be honest enough to say the topic has been broached enough in these forums that I've become weary of the question/implication.
Payton Pritchard is a fun prospect to root for, and he's also getting more (and a different kind of) attention because he is white. All it takes is holding both these thoughts at the same time, without resenting the people who put them there, and that's progress.
 

RetractableRoof

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Payton Pritchard is a fun prospect to root for, and he's also getting more (and a different kind of) attention because he is white. All it takes is holding both these thoughts at the same time, without resenting the people who put them there, and that's progress.
You are making an assertion that is not true in my case, but are offering it as fact. I answered the posters' pondering thought from my point of view. Where is your data that demonstrates that he is getting more attention because he is white - and specifically by those in this thread?
 

DJnVa

Dorito Dawg
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Dec 16, 2010
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Where is your data that demonstrates that he is getting more attention because he is white - and specifically by those in this thread?

Even with the extra posts in this thread discussing his race, the Nesmith thread has more posts.
 

Sprowl

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Jun 27, 2006
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Breaking out of the Pritchard thread. Payton can be judged by his handle, not his pallor. Pedroier would be proud, though.
 

Sox Puppet

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Dec 7, 2016
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I was just listening to Bill Simmons's latest "Book of Basketball" podcast, the one about Chris Webber. The entire narrative was about how C-Webb disappointed and underachieved relative to his amazing "tools" -- a lot of wishcasting about the kind of player he COULD have been, had he maximized his talents. Shaq comes to mind as another player with a similar narrative ... if he'd only had Kobe's killer instinct and work ethic, etc., etc.

I can't recall any time that this narrative has been applied to a white player. It's either that he has OVERachieved, maximizing every ounce of his talent, or that he was just a stiff to begin with. It feels like a backhanded compliment given to some black players like C-Webb ... despite their many successes, they could have been so much more, if only. On the few occasions that you hear this kind of wishcasting about a white player, such as Luka Doncic (imagine what he'd be with better defense and 3PT%), the implication is that he's still young and will eventually figure it out.