GW 9

Mighty Joe Young

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Serious question … is this all the result of having Renaldo in the 11. I know he doesn’t press .. but no one pressed .. or tracked back. Surely this in on Ole? I’m not suggesting it’s easy setting up this team but that was pathetic.
 

Zomp

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Serious question … is this all the result of having Renaldo in the 11. I know he doesn’t press .. but no one pressed .. or tracked back. Surely this in on Ole? I’m not suggesting it’s easy setting up this team but that was pathetic.
You said serious question. So serious answer coming from a United fan.

They lost 5-0. It has nothing to do with one player in the starting 11. It has to do with all 11 of them.

Ronaldo is the least of my worries as a fan. He doesn’t press, which is understandable given his age and mileage. He’s there to bury the chances that everyone should create for him.
It’s on Ole. He’s bottled it. It’s too bad, but it’s time to go. Last year MMS asked why I didn’t want to get Conte or Poch when they were available and my answer was because I wanted to try to win with Ole. He deserved a chance and it would have been sweet to do it with a club legend at the helm.
But he’s had his chance and it’s clearly not working. The team today, in the first half, actually created two or three decent scoring chances and were unlucky not to have one. But that wasn’t down to coaching. A front four of Greenwood, Bruno, Rashford and Ronaldo will create chances no matter the coaching. There is nothing instinctual about this team right now. No trust.
It’s cliche for sure but it’s obvious they have no idea what to do as a team.

Unfortunately, he has to go.
 

swiftaw

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I honestly think that signing Ronaldo was a horrible move for United. Sure, he'll score a few, but he completely changes the way United have to play. Without Ronaldo, United would've sat deep yesterday and tried to hit on the counter with pace. The rumor is they only signed him because they were afraid he'd end up at City.

Also, how must Sancho be feeling about now, I guess him and Van Der Beek can commiserate together.
 

Kliq

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Ronaldo feels like an incredibly easy scapegoat because it fits a lazy narrative. Ole has been overmatched before in big games and players have underachieved long before Ronaldo came back to Old Trafford. I'm sure nobody was thinking he was a horrible signing when he smashed home the winner against Atalanta four days ago.
 

swiftaw

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Ronaldo feels like an incredibly easy scapegoat because it fits a lazy narrative. Ole has been overmatched before in big games and players have underachieved long before Ronaldo came back to Old Trafford. I'm sure nobody was thinking he was a horrible signing when he smashed home the winner against Atalanta four days ago.
Oh, I'm not saying its totally Ronaldo's fault, only that he impacts the way they play (I'm also curious whether the owners signed him without Ole's input). United's tactical plan seems to be try not to concede too many and hope one for individualistic brilliance the win the game.

I also wonder about leadership on the field. I noticed that when there was a stoppage in the first half for an injury, Henderson and Milner were going around barking instructions at the other Liverpool players, whereas the4 United players were kind of standing around in silence.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that United seem to have multiple problems.
 

67YAZ

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My first question is, are they a pressing side or no? Yeah, Ronaldo can’t really press anymore (and hasnt even tried in at least a decade), but a sophisticated game plan could set triggers away from him or that give him more general zonal duties. In any case, half asses pressing is worse than dropping into structure. But does anyone know for certain what their defensive philosophy is?

second, what the fuck is up in the midfield? In isolation, i see good stuff from Fred & McTominay, but they’re rarely in good spots and Pogba is inconsistent help. Whenever I tune in I see 4 attackers, 4 defenders, and 2 midfielders left to do the rest.
 

Zososoxfan

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My first question is, are they a pressing side or no? Yeah, Ronaldo can’t really press anymore (and hasnt even tried in at least a decade), but a sophisticated game plan could set triggers away from him or that give him more general zonal duties. In any case, half asses pressing is worse than dropping into structure. But does anyone know for certain what their defensive philosophy is?

second, what the fuck is up in the midfield? In isolation, i see good stuff from Fred & McTominay, but they’re rarely in good spots and Pogba is inconsistent help. Whenever I tune in I see 4 attackers, 4 defenders, and 2 midfielders left to do the rest.
So United has become late stage Messi-Barca. Good to know.
 

Zomp

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Eh. Rashford can press. Cavani can press. Haven’t seen enough of Sancho yet. Bruno can press as well.

I dunno. There should be enough pressers in the team to compensate for Ronaldo.

Ronaldo isn’t the problem and I don’t think he’d be made a scapegoat.
 

Mighty Joe Young

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Eh. Rashford can press. Cavani can press. Haven’t seen enough of Sancho yet. Bruno can press as well.

I dunno. There should be enough pressers in the team to compensate for Ronaldo.

Ronaldo isn’t the problem and I don’t think he’d be made a scapegoat.
So, the obvious question is why didn’t they? Or, since Ole had mentioned it was part of the plan , why was it a total failure? I certainly didn’t see much of an attempt to win the ball high up the pitch. You CAN press Liverpool - they generally will revert to punting the ball over the press if they have to (see the 2019 CL final against Spurs )

I agree Ronaldo isn’t a problem as a player - it just seems his manager has no clue how to setup a team defensively with him in the side. Conte would probably figure this out in a couple of training sessions.
 

Zomp

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I know you’re asking rhetorical questions but the simple answer is nobody knows and until Ole is sacked and replaced with someone we won’t know if it’s his tactics that failed the team or if the players just don’t mix.

I think it’s the former. I think ole has done an admirable job the past few seasons but the additions to the squad this summer has put an enormous amount of pressure on him and he bottled it. No shame in him managing the club and now there’s no shame in sacking him.
 

SocrManiac

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I’m on shaky ground with the Juventus comparisons because of the shifting managerial sands in Turin, but to my eye Ronaldo’s effect on United has been eerily similar. He can absolutely score goals, but he’s completely inflexible in his positioning and play. Teams are forced into predictable attacking patterns that suit Ronaldo, not the talent around him.

That said, yesterday’s debacle had little to do with CR7. United could have had 13 on the pitch with their setup and not seriously contended. There were issues all over the pitch.

I generally agree with the pundits that the paper 4-4-2 was, in reality, a 4-2-4. McFred were completely overrun in the midfield, and the (late) adjustment with Pogba backfired spectacularly.

Wan Bissaka seems to have no defensive positional awareness whatsoever. His meandering, pointless movement shifted the rest of the back four into untenable positions. Maguire consistently sought out and occupied the least meaningful space he could find.

It’s weird to say a keeper on the back end of a 5 goal loss had a good game, but De Gea looked like his old self. He’s capable of some really spectacular stuff and is fun (and frustrating) to watch when he’s on form.
 

Jimy Hendrix

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Wan Bissaka seems to have no defensive positional awareness whatsoever. His meandering, pointless movement shifted the rest of the back four into untenable positions. Maguire consistently sought out and occupied the least meaningful space he could find.
That's sad to hear, the whole thing that made him exciting enough at Palace to get his United move was his defensive skill. Not building on that but instead letting it stagnate is almost as sad as wasting the careers of Donny Van De Beek and apparently now Jadon Sancho also.
 

Zomp

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Let’s pump the brakes on wasting the career of Sancho. He’s been at United a whole 3 months.

Wan Bissaka’s defensive skill is there and still excellent. His positioning, however, needs work.
 

OCST

Sunny von Bulow
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As an Everton fan I’ll say two things-

one, the guy who really scares me is Cavani. Always in the right spot. A real mean streak- he’s a complete shit which I mean as a high complement.

two, just kill me now.
 

teddykgb

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My comment wasn’t to blame Ronaldo. He’s surely still a net win but Rashford and Greenwood are strikers turned into wingers and Bruno doesn’t work hard enough defensively. Yes, they all could in the sense that they have legs and lungs but these aren’t players who are complete enough to be played with Ronaldo to act as a unit against a Liverpool side that very much plays as a highly functional XI that keeps very good spacing and supports each other well.

Managers have to make choices for the good of the unit and getting Ronaldo in means making sacrifices elsewhere. United can get away with playing 4 dedicated attackers against worse opposition but against an in form Liverpool it was suicidal. A half hearted press from poor pressers and asking the back 6 to cope as Liverpool run at them was never ever going to work. You have to have a large majority of men working very hard to cope with Liverpool on their day. You can carry Ronaldo but likely no more
 

SoxFanInCali

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I watched some of the Sky analysis and Ratface said that the stats show that United are near the bottom when it comes to collective amount of ground covered per game. You can't half-press, everyone needs to do it or you need to defend a different way. Nobody can press for 90 minutes, but you have to change your shape when you don't. You'll see that in Liverpool games, they'll generally come out pressing hard and fast at the beginning of each half, then drop back and absorb pressure for a 10-15 minute stretch but play more compact, then try to close the half with more pressing.

United looked like a few players thought they're supposed to press while the other half drop back, and it resulted in 4 or 5 people trying to defend 6-7 attackers and getting pulled out of position. It seemed like every few minutes Shaw was stranded on the left side of the box 1 against 2 with no center back anywhere to be found. He went after Salah for the first goal which left Keita clean through with one pass, and on the 4th right before the half he tried to stop Jota which left Salah all by himself to one-time it into the net. Can't blame him, as nobody's going to stop Liverpool 1 on 2 when they're clicking, but he really got hung out to dry several times.
 

OCST

Sunny von Bulow
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Liverpool’s XI have played together for years. None of these kinds of issues. That’s going to put them ahead of the other contenders I think. Even Pep and TT are still shifting through the gears to figure out their clubs, arguably they can win the “who walks into whose side” exercise with LFC on paper but there isn’t a better team.
 

candylandriots

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Let’s pump the brakes on wasting the career of Sancho. He’s been at United a whole 3 months.

Wan Bissaka’s defensive skill is there and still excellent. His positioning, however, needs work.
That was the thing about Wan-Bissaka at Palace. He was always out of position, but was always fast enough to recover. I haven’t seen much of him at United, but I suspect he’s going to need that worked out playing in top European competitions, and certainly by the time his legs can’t keep up. I think he’s got a long way to go before that though.