Hall of Fame establishes "Contemporary Era" ballot

Daniel_Son

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Well, they were banned except for prescription use in the mid-60s, and were made a controlled substance in 1971, so I am not sure the not "illegal" excuse really resonates and again, I ask why some illegal performance enhancing drugs are acceptable and not HOF disqualifying while others are. I get this "massive difference", well I actually don't as no studies of any kind ever quantified it.

The tut-tutting of steroid use particularly by "clean" former players who absolutely got a boost from the use of Greenies is a massive pet peeve of mine.
How are you supposed to punish someone for using something that isn't on baseball's list of banned substances? Amphetamines weren't added to the list until 2005. Steroids have been banned since 1991. Bonds, Clemens, Palmiero, et. al. broke the rules in a way that Mays, Williams, Mantle, and the other greenie users didn't. Maybe it was an oversight by the MLB to not ban greenies earlier, but them's the rules.
 

mwonow

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Can we just establish a Steroids Wing in the HoF and put these guys in and be done with it? I mean come on - no matter which side of the fence you're on, you have to admit that debating this every single goddamn year is getting tedious.
Sure - per upthread, call it Radomski's Lounge. Maybe put a line over the door to the effect of "Even SoSH finds this debate tiresome."
 

67YAZ

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I always wondered why with the "Cheaters" they didnt just say. "Pete Rose will never be admitted into the BBHOF except posthumously.

Dont let those guys have their day in the sun. No one fawning over them. No speech. No Gold jacket (Do they even do that for MLB?).

Basically Rose/Bonds/Clemens are (a BIG) part of Baseball history.....but they should never be able to enjoy those fruits.

I suppose a Clemens Autograph (and the $25 bucks he makes off it) would hold some value knowing that EVENTUALLY he would get in. But not sure I would want to spend my $25 to wait 20-30 years.
The flip side of this is that the Hall couldn't find a way to induct Ron Santo while he was alive. Santo, who at the time of his retirement was one of the 3 or 4 best 3B in history and still ranks among the top-10. Santo, who gave his life to Chicago baseball. Santo, for whom induction would have meant the world and would have given probably the corniest and most tear-jerking speech in history. Santo, for whom induction would have meant the world to an entire fan base.

But they’ll bend over backwards for guys who damaged the sport’s image & reputation.
 
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Ale Xander

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Bonds
Clemens
No doubters
when he’s eligible, Manny, no doubt

have to look closer on Palmeiro
Have to hold my nose at Curt politics and the RI thing so not sure there.
But probably deserves to be in based on BB rate and 2001/2004
 

Yelling At Clouds

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If there's no strike in '94-'95, then McGriff almost definitely hits seven more HRs and we aren't having this discussion.
 

Leskanic's Thread

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But probably deserves to be in based on BB rate and 2001/2004
No love for 2007?

And a point on our buddy Curt: I'm not comfortable dismissing the problems with him as "politics." I wouldn't advocate not allowing him into the Hall (or not allowing him to give a speech) because he campaigned for W. after the '04 World Series -- I didn't agree with him, but that is a standard political disagreement. The problems with Curt should extend beyond politics -- his hateful bigotry should be socially unacceptable, full stop. It's letting him off too easy (and letting the Overton window shift too much) to just say the problem is just politics.

Not going after anyone in particular for that -- it's an easy shorthand that I've also used. I also know that, given the current landscape, the horse may have already left the barn on this. But still, I think it needs to be reiterated.
 

Van Everyman

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Clemens and Bonds deserve induction based on numbers but...

Schilling deserves induction based on numbers but...

Palmeiro deserves induction based on numbers but...

The other guys aren't really good enough. McGriff is closest and I wouldn't be too annoyed by it, but he's the definition of Hall of Very Good. 277th all time career WAR below guys like Jack Clark; no really impressive personal accolades...
So the thing with Palmeiro … it seems one there is a case to be made that he *only* achieved those numbers because of steroid use. I wrote about this a few years back:

Raffy had a really good career, 3,000 hits, 500 homers. Until he tested positive for steroids, he was in the HOF conversation. People remember his finger-wagging performance in front of Congress in 2005.

What they don't remember is this: that to that point Palmeiro hadn't been on the disabled list A SINGLE TIME IN NINETEEN YEARS. That's not only unlikely – it's pretty much impossible absent some kind of medicinal aid. When was the first time he did go on the DL? Right after he came back from his suspension when he was (presumably) clean. And then he retired. What did he test positive for? Winstrol, for which one of the main uses is speeding recovery. Once you realize that, you start to realize that while Palmeiro was a very good player in his career, the only reason he was even in the conversation for HOF was the longevity and consistency fueled by his steroid use.

And... once you realize that he was using steroids for that purpose, you have to start wondering who else was using them for those purposes. At which point, you have to begin to wonder how many pitchers used them to get thru the grind of a 162 game season – not just guys like Clemens but also guys like Greg Maddux who seemed to defy the laws of age to stay on the field and relievers whose arms fall off when their managers Proctor them. I mean, Andy Pettite admitted as much and nobody thought to so much as ask who else amongst MLB pitchers might be using them the same way.

For my part, I think shortening recovery time is the single biggest reason athletes use PEDs – and by not really exploring that side of the steroid era in baseball, the media effectively left people with the wrong impression of why people use them and, as a result, who is likely to be using them.
The point being, Palmeiro only reached the 500/3K numbers he did because he never went on the disabled list. And that was because he used Winstrol: a steroid that helps you recover faster. We know this about him. He was suspended for it. Bonds and Clemens had HOF numbers before they cheated. Raffy didn’t. It’s that simple. He doesn’t deserve entry.
 

Leather

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So the thing with Palmeiro … it seems one there is a case to be made that he *only* achieved those numbers because of steroid use. I wrote about this a few years back:



The point being, Palmeiro only reached the 500/3K numbers he did because he never went on the disabled list. And that was because he used Winstrol: a steroid that helps you recover faster. We know this about him. He was suspended for it. Bonds and Clemens had HOF numbers before they cheated. Raffy didn’t. It’s that simple. He doesn’t deserve entry.
Well, I agree with the overall point that Palmeiro‘s credentials really are solely his counting stats which attained some “Hall-Worthy” totals and those were almost certainly attained through steroid use. But I’m not sure you can point to his lack of injuries as “proof” he was using steroids. My understanding of roids is that they often *lead* to nagging injuries as ligaments and tendons are not strengthened at the rate that muscles are. Do you apply the same logic to Cal Ripken?

Second, He was a first baseman, a position that typically isn’t very injury-prone.
 

Ale Xander

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How do steroids, for example, prevent you from being hit on the wrist with a baseball?
ridiculous argument imho.

pitch/throw faster/harder, sure
Faster bat speed, sure
Recover from injuries, sure

but that plus vision, I don’t buy it
 

Van Everyman

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Well, I agree with the overall point that Palmeiro‘s credentials really are solely his counting stats which attained some “Hall-Worthy” totals and those were almost certainly attained through steroid use. But I’m not sure you can point to his lack of injuries as “proof” he was using steroids. My understanding of roids is that they often *lead* to nagging injuries as ligaments and tendons are not strengthened at the rate that muscles are. Do you apply the same logic to Cal Ripken?

Second, He was a first baseman, a position that typically isn’t very injury-prone.
Sure -- I mean, there's probably a reason we're having this conversation about him instead of, say, a player like Dustin Pedroia.

Well, we do have proof Palmeiro was using steroids when he got his 3,000th hit: he'd already tested positive and was appealing his case (unsuccessfully). He was suspended 10 days later.

As for whether he was using it throughout the rest of his career? Well, it does seem odd to me for a guy to never once go on the DL a single time. Look at these games played:

57354

The guy barely took a game off over 17 seasons -- he played less than 152 games exactly once during that time, not counting the 1994 strike year. That's an average of 156.5 games per year.

Let's compare Albert Pujols, who played 22 seasons:

57352

Similar ironman workload in a lot of ways -- but over the first 17 seasons of his career played less than 152 games 6 times (143, 148, 147, 99, 149, 117). So, two seasons with significantly fewer games than Palmeiro ever had and several seasons with a reduced workload and (based on what I see online) periodic trips to the DL. He averages 149.5 games per year.

OTOH, here's Eddie Murray, who is one of the only other guys who hit 500 HR and 3000 hits:

57355

Taking out the 1981 strike year, Murray averages 156.1 games over the prime of his career -- almost identical to Palmeiro. He literally has only one year under 150 games, 1986.

So Palmeiro played about 7 games more per year than Albert Pujols -- which is about 4% more of the schedule. That's about 22 more home runs to his total and 120 hits. But about the same amount as Eddie Murray.

Is it on the margins? For sure. All three guys were pretty healthy over the course of their long careers. But again: in Palmeiro's case never going a single time on the DL seems ... odd to me. Especially when the only time in his career that we *know* he wasn't on steroids--when he came back from his suspension--he immediately got hurt and went on the DL.

As for Ripken and others, I'm not on some quest to impugn the reputations of other players. That said, as I said in my quoted post above, I do think we have a warped understanding of steroid use due to the cliche of muscle-bound guys like McGwire using steroids. If players like Palmeiro were using PEDs to speed recovery, you have to ask yourself: wouldn't that have been particularly valuable to other players -- like, say, pitchers? We had some HOF pitchers in the 90's and 2000's who seemed to defy the laws of age to stay on the field, to say nothing of relievers who are treated as disposable by most teams and pitched into the ground. Of course, we don't have any evidence of those guys, so it's probably not anything we'll ever know for sure. But by not really exploring the "Recovery Time" side of steroid use in baseball and focusing instead on "Strength Building," the media effectively left people with the wrong impression of why people use them and, as a result, who was likely to be using them.

In the meantime tho, we know Palmeiro used them, how and why. And because the preponderance of his HOF case is counting stats and those stats are clearly tainted (he wouldn't have made 3,000 without appeal), I don't think he remotely deserves consideration.

(I'm putting aside what an incredibly sanctimonious asshole he was pointing his finger and lying to Congress because being an asshole is almost a qualification for this particular honor)
 

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lexrageorge

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[sorry for the misquote]

Obviously, PEDs do not prevent a player from getting hit by a pitch, or fouling a ball off their ankle, or fracturing an elbow after hitting the hard rim around the on-deck circle while trying to make a catch. But it is knowns that one of the key attractions of PEDs was the ability to recover quickly from the muscle-related aches and pains that routinely occur to athletes when they get into the latter half (aka, over 30 y/o) of their careers. The baseball season is a real grind, even for first basemen and designated hitters. 1B do have to make acrobatic stretches to catch hurried throws, where there are sub-second differences between the end of an inning and a run scoring.

Palmeiro's primary non-PED problem is that he toiled in anonymity for the mostly irrelevant Texas Rangers, and a Baltimore Orioles team that were for the most part also-rans to the Yankees when they did make the playoffs. He never finished higher than 6th in MVP voting; even though I don't put a ton of stock into those popularity contests, that fact does give some idea of how he compared to his cohorts. So I am OK with him buying admission to the Hall.

A couple of posters mentioned Jack Morris. While I don't believe Morris was deserving of a Hall nod, his playoff record is better than some here are giving him credit for; it wasn't just one game. His overall postseason numbers are negatively impacted by his 1992 postseason as Toronto was fortunate the Braves totally choked that one away. He was 3-0, 1.80 ERA in 1984. While the Tigers were heavily favored in 1984 World Series, the reality is that Morris pitched a 2-run complete game in a 3-2 win in Game 1 and 4-2 win Game 4, and heavily favored teams have had things go south on them when their #1 starter struggles. He was meh in his one start in the 1987 post season, but did get BABIP'ed a bit. He did start 5 games in the 1991 postseason and went 4-0 with a 2.23 ERA.
 

Sad Sam Jones

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Completely anecdotal about Palmeiro, but the narrative as I remember it is that the Cubs gave up on him early in his career because they decided he was never going to hit for the power they wanted from a corner fielder. Maybe he just came into his own at 26 or changed his swing – and no doubt it helped he spent the rest of his career playing half his games in launching pads – but he became a middle-of-the-order bat a couple of years after arriving in Texas and retired with 569 HR. He always seemed like a likely juicer to me. Throwing out the numbers and accomplishments, when you get down to the gut instinct of "Hall of Fame", I just never had the impression I was watching a Hall of Famer when seeing him play, so I took a bit of pleasure in knowing his milestones weren't going to be able to overcome his PED suspension. Again, those are just my feelings or hunches and I realize they don't hold weight against actual analysis.

Also, @^%* that guy for his Gold Glove while being a designated hitter (yeah, I know that's not his fault… this is just an irrational post).
 

Leather

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Completely anecdotal about Palmeiro, but the narrative as I remember it is that the Cubs gave up on him early in his career because they decided he was never going to hit for the power they wanted from a corner fielder. Maybe he just came into his own at 26 or changed his swing – and no doubt it helped he spent the rest of his career playing half his games in launching pads – but he became a middle-of-the-order bat a couple of years after arriving in Texas and retired with 569 HR. He always seemed like a likely juicer to me. Throwing out the numbers and accomplishments, when you get down to the gut instinct of "Hall of Fame", I just never had the impression I was watching a Hall of Famer when seeing him play, so I took a bit of pleasure in knowing his milestones weren't going to be able to overcome his PED suspension. Again, those are just my feelings or hunches and I realize they don't hold weight against actual analysis.

Also, @^%* that guy for his Gold Glove while being a designated hitter (yeah, I know that's not his fault… this is just an irrational post).
Exactly.

Palmeiro hitting 500+ HR really was a “Wait, what? Him?!” Moment where it felt like roids were more than just Bonds and McGwire, and were a massive dry rot that was screwing up my entire perspective on statistics.

Similar to your reflexive feeling on Palmeiro, his early-mid career overlapped with my period of collecting baseball cards and playing rotisserie baseball. And at no time was I ever excited to get a Palmeiro card or have him on my team. He was never more than, like, the 25th best player in the game.
 

DJnVa

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Schilling should get in. Crime Dog and Murphy would be feel good stories, but not deserving of the HoF.
Murphy, per b-ref:

Black Ink: Above "likely HoF'er" (68th all-time)
Gray Ink: Above "likely HoF'er" (118th all-time)
HoF Monitor: Above "likely HoF'er" (137th all-time)
JAWS has him 27th all-time in CF

He has some weird "Similar Batters" but Duke Snider is #3.
Most Similar By Age includes: Dwight Evans and a whole bunch of Reggie Jackson.
 

Daniel_Son

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Murphy, per b-ref:

Black Ink: Above "likely HoF'er" (68th all-time)
Gray Ink: Above "likely HoF'er" (118th all-time)
HoF Monitor: Above "likely HoF'er" (137th all-time)
JAWS has him 27th all-time in CF

He has some weird "Similar Batters" but Duke Snider is #3.
Most Similar By Age includes: Dwight Evans and a whole bunch of Reggie Jackson.
Murphy also holds the distinction of being one of just 13 players to win consecutive MVP awards:
  • Jimmie Foxx
  • Hal Newhouser
  • Yogi Berra
  • Mickey Mantle
  • Ernie Banks
  • Roger Maris
  • Joe Morgan
  • Mike Schmidt
  • Dale Murphy
  • Barry Bonds
  • Frank Thomas
  • Albert Pujols
  • Miguel Cabrera
Hell of a list to be on.
 

Van Everyman

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Murphy also holds the distinction of being one of just 13 players to win consecutive MVP awards:
  • Jimmie Foxx
  • Hal Newhouser
  • Yogi Berra
  • Mickey Mantle
  • Ernie Banks
  • Roger Maris
  • Joe Morgan
  • Mike Schmidt
  • Dale Murphy
  • Barry Bonds
  • Frank Thomas
  • Albert Pujols
  • Miguel Cabrera
Hell of a list to be on.
Crazy that Mike Trout isn’t on this list
 

Plantiers Wart

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Murphy also holds the distinction of being one of just 13 players to win consecutive MVP awards:
  • Jimmie Foxx
  • Hal Newhouser
  • Yogi Berra
  • Mickey Mantle
  • Ernie Banks
  • Roger Maris
  • Joe Morgan
  • Mike Schmidt
  • Dale Murphy
  • Barry Bonds
  • Frank Thomas
  • Albert Pujols
  • Miguel Cabrera
Hell of a list to be on.
That used to be a great trivia question before Bonds won - the earlier ones filled out a lineup card with one at every position. Then bonds could have made one of the outfielders a DH, but the latest three screwed it all up
 

SemperFidelisSox

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Theo Epstein is one of the voters on the committee.

Full list of 16 voters:

Chipper Jones, Greg Maddux, Jack Morris, Ryne Sandberg, Lee Smith, Frank Thomas, Alan Trammell, Paul Beeston, Theo Epstein, Arte Moreno, Kim Ng, Dave St. Peter, Ken Williams, Steve Hirdt, LaVelle Neal and Susan Slusse.
 

SemperFidelisSox

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I’d be shocked if any of the steroid guys got in. Players like Morris and Sandberg have made their thoughts about steroids known for many years. I think McGriff gets in, and a chance Schilling and/or Mattingly.
 

jon abbey

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Not trying to put politics in a baseball thread, but it would be a terrible look for MLB to put in Schilling right now.
 

E5 Yaz

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McGriff ... unanimously.
No one else

from live announcement on MLBN
 

jon abbey

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McGriff ... unanimously.
No one else
Good, that works for me.

Yankee draft pick, crazy to think what could have been if he had played his whole career with NY's right field porch.
 

worm0082

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These steroid guys are never getting in. I could have sworn they would this way. If it’s not it’s never going to happen. Time for Clemens to pitch a meaningless inning in April for the Astros to reset his HOF clock.
 

John Marzano Olympic Hero

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Good, that works for me.

Yankee draft pick, crazy to think what could have been if he had played his whole career with NY's right field porch.
Jay Buhner
Willie McGee
McGriff

Where would he have played though? Mattingly was at first, I doubt that they’d have stuck him as a DH.
 

Ale Xander

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Looking at the voters I think Bonds and Clemens and Palmeiro get in
Yay, Yay, costs of doing business.

Edit, ehh. Like Crime Dog more than Palmeiro during playing career, so don't totally hate, but Bonds, Clemens, (and eventually Arod, Manny) need to be in.
 

Ale Xander

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These steroid guys are never getting in. I could have sworn they would this way. If it’s not it’s never going to happen. Time for Clemens to pitch a meaningless inning in April for the Astros to reset his HOF clock.
Who would you rather take an AB as a DH in 2023 for the Red Sox? Dalbec or current state Bonds?

I vote Bonds
 

scottyno

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This is their Hall. This is what I always wanted. Let them decide.

They have.
They was a 16 person committee that only included 6 players, this isn't them deciding it's a very small group of them.
 

E5 Yaz

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They was a 16 person committee that only included 6 players, this isn't them deciding it's a very small group of them.
Ended up being 5 ... Chipper withdrew because of illness; an Arizona front office type replaced him
 

Ale Xander

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This is their Hall. This is what I always wanted. Let them decide.

They have.
No, this is Cooperstown NY's museum of baseball history designed to improve the economic conditions of a town ravaged by the Depression and Prohibition.

Who is gonna bring more people to spend money there?

McGriff or Bonds/Arod?
 

worm0082

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Astros wanted Clemens to start a game that year he was fiddling around with Sugartown Express or whatever the team name was & LaRussa wanted to activate hitting coach McGwire as a pinch hitter just to reset his HOF clock. 2013-ish?
 

scottyno

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Ended up being 5 ... Chipper withdrew because of illness; an Arizona front office type replaced him
Looks like it was supposed to be 7 players then: Maddux, Morris, Sandberg, Smith, Thomas, and Trammel voted. No idea how those 6 plus Chipper were chosen, though if you want to make the argument you could say they were stacking the deck to help Mcgriff (and or Murphy) get in over the steroid guys.
 

Petagine in a Bottle

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McGriff ranks 277th on career WAR; behind Doc Gooden, Jack Clark, David Wells, Ron Cey, Ian Kinsler, Kevin Appier, Joe Mauer, Jeff Kent, Chet Lemon, Orel Hershiser, Johnny Damon, Dave Stieb, Will Clark, Frank Tanana, Chuck Finley, John Olerud, Bret Saberhagen, Bobby Abreu…

Good player, but eh, I don’t really understand this or this committee in general really.
 

E5 Yaz

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Looks like it was supposed to be 7 players then: Maddux, Morris, Sandberg, Smith, Thomas, and Trammel voted. No idea how those 6 plus Chipper were chosen, though if you want to make the argument you could say they were stacking the deck to help Mcgriff (and or Murphy) get in over the steroid guys.
Yep, my mistake
 

Petagine in a Bottle

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Looks like it was supposed to be 7 players then: Maddux, Morris, Sandberg, Smith, Thomas, and Trammel voted. No idea how those 6 plus Chipper were chosen, though if you want to make the argument you could say they were stacking the deck to help Mcgriff (and or Murphy) get in over the steroid guys.
Three of those guys played with Palmeiro; they must have hated him.
 

Ale Xander

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McGriff ranks 277th on career WAR; behind Doc Gooden, Jack Clark, David Wells, Ron Cey, Ian Kinsler, Kevin Appier, Joe Mauer, Jeff Kent…

Good player, but eh, I don’t really understand this or this committee in general really.
Nice guy, nice smile, nice swing, allegedly clean, 7 short of 500 career home runs.