Yeah, if it makes us better in 2018. I'm not sure that move does but Hanley's 22 mil is a non factor if he is our best option available.
Hanley DFA'd (5/25 Update)
- Thread starter Pozo the Clown
- Start date
Why would 22 million dollars be a non-factor?
Would you sign Hanley Ramirez for 22 million dollars? If you say no, then there's no reason on earth Hanley should be playing, no matter if he makes us better in 2018 or not
You are willing to make the 2018 team worse in favor of saving 22 million in 2019. I think this 2018 team has a good chance at a WS title and should field the best possible team available.
This is absurd. Next year’s team is no less important and has no worse a shot than the 2018 team, and would depend mightily on that $22 million to pay for arb increases and replacing Kimbrel, Pom, and Kelly instead of a replacement-level player. Triggering Hanley’s option makes next year’s team worse.
Second, it should not be difficult to find a guy this summer who can play first and put up an .800 OPS against LHP.
There are obviously team chemistry issues we can’t see that could be a disturbance, and who knows what’ll happen. Hanley’s obviously well liked by players and fans, and that matters. That’s why something like a Hanley for Cargo+ trade — with the eye toward taking on enough salary to get us a good young Rockies player — would seem to work, because it has the whiff of an exchange of former superstars, which is better than a DFA.
First: This year's team is more important than next years because we know what this team looks like, and it is a very good team. You can argue otherwise all you want but I'll continue to disagree. Why do you think teams trade prospects at the deadline for established vets?
2nd: If it's not so difficult, why haven't they done it?
Also, I'd guess there is a far greater chance of Hanley getting DFA'd than traded, and I don't see either as likely.
Next year's team is much less important than this year's team in May 2018. This year's team is currently in first place and hasn't had any huge injury issues. Next year's team could stumble out of the gate because Sale blew out his elbow in Spring Training, or Mookie came back to Earth, or JD fouls one off his foot. If anything like that happens, you've made 2018's team worse for a lost cause in 2019.
Agreed.
However, straight up planting Hanley to the bench majority of the time for Moreland solves both issues. Makes the 2018 team better, and if the option doesn't vest, helps next year too.
Why all this talk about trades, DFAs, or sitting JBJ when the obvious solution is right there?
I could see how one might think DFAing Hanley is preferable to benching him, if the perception is that a benched Hanley is an unhappy Hanley, and an unhappy Hanley is a disruptive Hanley.
That's been the million dollar question since the start of the past off-season. I haven't really found or seen anything concrete to confirm it one way or the other.
If Hanley can be released without penalty though then Pedroa's return might end up being viewed internally as an opportunity timetable having played itself out. My money would still be on Swihart getting the axe first, but you never know I guess.
Why is the assumption that Hanley would be disruptive? The guy has changed positions twice for the team without whisper of complaint. If putting him on the bench 4-5 times a week instead of 1 is beneficial to the team, I expect Cora and company would thoroughly explain that to him and he'd probably do so willingly. He'd probably also work his ass off trying to get himself back in the lineup more often too.
Hanley is batting in the two hole today. This has to be stubbornness on Cora's part. It certainly is boneheaded. That being said this is the first move Cora has done that I think is indefensible.
I thought this had been answered a couple of times, to the effect that the 497 PA have to accumulate under his current contract to trigger the option. So if he's traded, the destination team is potentially liable for the vesting option, but if he's DFA'd and re-signed, then neither team is liable for it, because the PA meter on this contract stops running when he signs a contract with the new team.
Is this fake news?
Those 497 PAs are down to 306.
As an organization, I think the only way they can handle a potentially difficult situation like this is for the mandate to the manager to be "do what you think is in the best interest of the club to win games on a day to day basis." If management wants to come in and make an economic decision and own it then so be it but you can't hang that on a rookie manager.
If Hanley's play makes it so he doesn't get there because Cora won't get there then so be it, but Cora needs to be able to look Hanley in the eye and say that the PAs and the contract had nothing to do with it, and management needs to keep him in position so that he's telling the truth.
We're actually not that far from the position where management would have to make an affirmative decision to avoid the vesting. Barring injury and barring the Sox moving to a true platoon it's going to be in the low 200s by the start of summer.
The other variable is Moreland's health. If Moreland takes a knock that keeps him out even for a short DL stint there's little doubt Hanley is going to get there.
As an organization, I think the only way they can handle a potentially difficult situation like this is for the mandate to the manager to be "do what you think is in the best interest of the club to win games on a day to day basis." If management wants to come in and make an economic decision and own it then so be it but you can't hang that on a rookie manager.
If Hanley's play makes it so he doesn't get there because Cora won't get there then so be it, but Cora needs to be able to look Hanley in the eye and say that the PAs and the contract had nothing to do with it, and management needs to keep him in position so that he's telling the truth.
We're actually not that far from the position where management would have to make an affirmative decision to avoid the vesting. Barring injury and barring the Sox moving to a true platoon it's going to be in the low 200s by the start of summer.
The other variable is Moreland's health. If Moreland takes a knock that keeps him out even for a short DL stint there's little doubt Hanley is going to get there.
Barring injury or DFAing he's going to get the 497. There are 113 games left in the season and he needs about 67 starts to get there. That's 8 weeks of inactivity for him to miss. Just not going to happen without disrupting the chemistry of the clubhouse.
If they would do a straight platoon at 1B wth Hanley and Moreland the problem would be solved - no way the Sox will face 67 lefty starters.
Pedroia coming back is key - pushing Nunez to back-up status and evening up the left-right balance of the roster.
Lineups could look like:
vs RHP
Mookie
Beni
Moreland
JD - dh
X
Devers
Pedey
JBJ (could play Brock here In LF with Beni in CF if JBJ continues to struggle; or use Holt to spell Pedroia against righties)
catcher (Leon for platoon advantage)
vs LHP
Mookie
Beni - CF
Hanley
JD - LF
X
Pedey
Devers
Nunez - dh
catcher (Vazquez)
Pedroia coming back is key - pushing Nunez to back-up status and evening up the left-right balance of the roster.
Lineups could look like:
vs RHP
Mookie
Beni
Moreland
JD - dh
X
Devers
Pedey
JBJ (could play Brock here In LF with Beni in CF if JBJ continues to struggle; or use Holt to spell Pedroia against righties)
catcher (Leon for platoon advantage)
vs LHP
Mookie
Beni - CF
Hanley
JD - LF
X
Pedey
Devers
Nunez - dh
catcher (Vazquez)
If only there was a way to verify these things rather than wonder.....
Last 5 games (since last Friday): 0 for 20 with one walk
Just for the sake of seeing if this is longer term than the last "week"...
Previous 5 games (5/12-5/17): 6 for 22 with a HR
Previous 5 games (5/5-5/11): 5 for 21 with 2 HR
Conclusion: he is having an 0 for the week, but that week includes a game off (Sunday) and a team off-day (Monday) so it probably isn't some sort of fatigue or burnout. It's just an off week.
I've thoroughly and completely moved into the "release him" camp. He looks like an old man at the plate or someone with chronic injuries....
Edit- And yes, I do (of course I don't know....) suspect that he would become a clubhouse nuisance if he was relegated to LH pitchers only... denying him $22 million and keeping him around? No. I'd be going apeshit.
Use the DH as a way to keep guys rested but in the lineup
Edit- And yes, I do (of course I don't know....) suspect that he would become a clubhouse nuisance if he was relegated to LH pitchers only... denying him $22 million and keeping him around? No. I'd be going apeshit.
Use the DH as a way to keep guys rested but in the lineup
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Lhp. Mookie on base. More Hitters behind him. Maybe a last ditch attempt to give him a shot in the arm.
About a million times more likely than just "stubbornness." Or a billion.
It's absolutely shocking how badly they have botched this...
Not only have they basically guaranteed this option vest, but they have put the team in a worst spot by playing a player who has absolutely zero positives to the team over a player with superior fielding and hitting.
Not only have they basically guaranteed this option vest, but they have put the team in a worst spot by playing a player who has absolutely zero positives to the team over a player with superior fielding and hitting.
It's hard to say HR brings 'zero positives' when we're not in the clubhouse - it's entirely possible that Cora has good reason to see Hanley as a positive influence on the younger members of the team and in the clubhouse as a whole. If that is the case, it does explain why Hanley is getting so many opportunities to turn things around. Alex Cora is a smart guy and I don't see him continuing to let this play out through the summer if Ramirez is not helping the team on the field - he does need to win games and not blow this season.
Why are you so convinced he adds "zero positives to the team"? He's had a bad stretch -- everyone lost their freaking minds in the game thread when he hit into two DPs and K'd the other night like it was the worst night in the history of professional sports.
Hanley had a legitimately good start to the year -- he's struggled as of late but I'm not sure why that means he's finished.
2018 team WAR for first basemen among contenders:
COL - (2.3)
CHC - (0.1)
NYY - 0.0
LAA - 0.0
HOU - 0.0
SEA - 0.0
TOR - 0.4
CLE - 0.7
A DFA'd Hanley at league minimum (and no 2019 option) would be very attractive to a team we'd likely face in the playoffs. The Cubs wouldn't play him over Rizzo and he's redundant to what Tyler Austin's doing in New York. But he's an ideal platoon partner for Yonder Alonso, would help the Astros' only positional weakness, and would be an upgrade over Valbuena in LAA.
COL - (2.3)
CHC - (0.1)
NYY - 0.0
LAA - 0.0
HOU - 0.0
SEA - 0.0
TOR - 0.4
CLE - 0.7
A DFA'd Hanley at league minimum (and no 2019 option) would be very attractive to a team we'd likely face in the playoffs. The Cubs wouldn't play him over Rizzo and he's redundant to what Tyler Austin's doing in New York. But he's an ideal platoon partner for Yonder Alonso, would help the Astros' only positional weakness, and would be an upgrade over Valbuena in LAA.
Moreland needs a platoon partner? He's not that helpless against LHP. But presumably, yes, Swihart is the defacto back up at first. Maybe Holt too.
This isn't true. He can play a passable 1B. Though those aren't the offensive numbers that can carry "passable" defense at 1B.
Why couldn't they just make the obvious move of dumping Swihart (genuine question)?
I wonder if Cora and DDski were on the same page. Or was DDski's hand forced by Cora channeling his inner Jimy?
This is a very smart decision. The guy stinks. They don't want his vesting option to kick in either. Great move to finally cut ties now.
No knock on Moreland. More like a "Swihart asked to be traded but we don't wanna so this is how he gets ABs" platoon.
So, have they been playing him so much to showcase him for a trade, but it backfired? Intending to release him in any case, I guess? Curiouser and curiouser.
Because he's the only catcher on the 40-man roster besides Vazquez and Leon. He'd be in Pawtucket and on the shuttle if he had options. He doesn't, so he's the rarely used #3 catcher on the big league roster.
I would as well. They don't want Hanley's 20 plus million next year and I don't blame them.
An 800 AB long slump? He's got a .700 OPS with a .283 BABIP and is hitting the ball on the ground more than he ever has. Dude's toast.
Slightly surprised, but not extremely surprised.
Very happy with this move, especially if him joining another team means we can't be on the hook for the option.
Moreland is a better player and won't cost 22 million dollars next year. Hanley made the most sense to DFA for Pedroia coming back as he has the least value, even Swihart, who I think is a total bust, has more value than Hanley
Very happy with this move, especially if him joining another team means we can't be on the hook for the option.
Moreland is a better player and won't cost 22 million dollars next year. Hanley made the most sense to DFA for Pedroia coming back as he has the least value, even Swihart, who I think is a total bust, has more value than Hanley
It does save them because its tied to either plate appearances or at-bats and he won't get these in Boston.
I'm stunned. It's probably the best option all things considered, but I really did not think that would happen.
I also kind of assume this answers the option question. If some other team could pick him up for the minimum and have the Sox pay though 2019, I doubt the Sox do this. They'd want more control than that.
I'm kind of hoping this means more playing time for Swihart. Or, you know, any playing time for Swihart.
And to address a question in previous posts, this year isn't more important than next year, but it is more certain. We're almost a third of the way through the season and the Sox have the best record in baseball. An incremental improvement now makes more of a real world impact than one for next year. For all we know Mookie or Sale will miss all of next year. That's not possible this year.