Happy Endings: The Bob Kraft thread

Oct 12, 2023
1,549
And thinks Kraft is in the Johnson / Davis / Haslam / Brown / Bidwill tier of owners.
Find me where I suggested that? Kraft is a cheap, meddlesome owner with no clue how to (or desire to) perform a real coaching search. All of those are demonstrably true assessments of him

Cash spending, spending on facilities, spending on payroll etc indicates he’s cheap

His track record of being meddlesome goes back to the 90’s

His lack of running a real search for a coach has been apparent in the last 3 HC hirings

I never said he’s Haslam bad, so I’m not sure where you got that from. Maybe you could cite where I said that
 

NortheasternPJ

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Find me where I suggested that? Kraft is a cheap, meddlesome owner with no clue how to (or desire to) perform a real coaching search. All of those are demonstrably true assessments of him

Cash spending, spending on facilities, spending on payroll etc indicates he’s cheap

His track record of being meddlesome goes back to the 90’s

His lack of running a real search for a coach has been apparent in the last 3 HC hirings

I never said he’s Haslam bad, so I’m not sure where you got that from. Maybe you could cite where I said that
You forgot to mention the Revolution.
 

Jimbodandy

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Find me where I suggested that? Kraft is a cheap, meddlesome owner with no clue how to (or desire to) perform a real coaching search. All of those are demonstrably true assessments of him

Cash spending, spending on facilities, spending on payroll etc indicates he’s cheap

His track record of being meddlesome goes back to the 90’s

His lack of running a real search for a coach has been apparent in the last 3 HC hirings

I never said he’s Haslam bad, so I’m not sure where you got that from. Maybe you could cite where I said that
Imagine how successful this organization would have been under his ownership if he weren't cheap. Maybe they would have won 12 super bowls and gone to 18. Sucks living through what we had to endure.
 
Oct 12, 2023
1,549
I get the lack of process to an extent. There’s legit concerns there, but a sham extensive process isn’t better than a lack of an extensive process..

Who was your 1st choice?
As I mentioned in one of the other threads, I think it’s impossible as a fan to say which of these guys is going to actually be the best option because we don’t know what their plans are for coordinators or personnel is

I don’t really have a problem with Vrabel being the coach. I wouldn’t have had a problem with Johnson, Nagy, Flores, Coen, Glenn, McCarthy or others though. Vrabel has some good qualities for sure. As do the others.

The sham process and the idea that Vrabel is obviously the right guy because of BS patriots way stuff, or he has defensive whiz bona fides, or he can make coherent fairly generic statements in a presser, is what I have issue with

I think whoever the coach is, outside of wildly unqualified people like Mayo, is going to be limited by the front office and the personnel.
 
Oct 12, 2023
1,549
Imagine how successful this organization would have been under his ownership if he weren't cheap. Maybe they would have won 12 super bowls and gone to 18. Sucks living through what we had to endure.
Are you actually disputing that he has been running the team in a cheap fashion as of late? The spending on players and facilities is documented fact. I’m not conjuring that out of thin air to slam the guy.

It’s great he had the GOAT HC and GOAT QB covering for his flaws. And I freely admit that for a good long while, he was a fine owner.

But the Kraft of 2023-24 and the Kraft pre-BB seem like the same guy to me.
 

NortheasternPJ

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As I mentioned in one of the other threads, I think it’s impossible as a fan to say which of these guys is going to actually be the best option because we don’t know what their plans are for coordinators or personnel is

I don’t really have a problem with Vrabel being the coach. I wouldn’t have had a problem with Johnson, Nagy, Flores, Coen, Glenn, McCarthy or others though. Vrabel has some good qualities for sure. As do the others.

The sham process and the idea that Vrabel is obviously the right guy because of BS patriots way stuff, or he has defensive whiz bona fides, or he can make coherent fairly generic statements in a presser, is what I have issue with

I think whoever the coach is, outside of wildly unqualified people like Mayo, is going to be limited by the front office and the personnel.
Well two of the three things you said are basically you just making stuff up since Vrabel literally dismissed the past today in his presser and I don’t see anyone on here saying he’s a defensive Whiz. Vrabel said the opposite and that he needed to leave here to learn how everyone else does it.

I’m not sure if you’re trying to do a Felger & Mazz impression but that’s basically their entire go to market, which is very successful. Don’t worry about the outcome, just throw around vagaries, talk about the process and then put in some bullshit.

I’m not saying Vrabels, the wrong choice Mike! But he might not be! Even if he is, why give Kraft any credit? Anyone could have picked Vrabel, how do we know they couldn’t have got someone better?
 
Oct 12, 2023
1,549
BOB mentioned in the "puff piece" that they were last in defense with MV as a coordinator. And then he grew as a coach. So I am not sure what your point was with this:
The part where BOB confirmed Vrabel “reached guys individually and got them playing to a higher level”

That seems like nonsense given the 2017 defensive results. It’s just smoke BOB is blowing to talk up a friend. Who on that 2017 Houston D played to a higher level that year? That unit was garbage and several of their best players regressed
 

bankshot1

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Find me where I suggested that? Kraft is a cheap, meddlesome owner with no clue how to (or desire to) perform a real coaching search. All of those are demonstrably true assessments of him

Cash spending, spending on facilities, spending on payroll etc indicates he’s cheap

His track record of being meddlesome goes back to the 90’s

His lack of running a real search for a coach has been apparent in the last 3 HC hirings

I never said he’s Haslam bad, so I’m not sure where you got that from. Maybe you could cite where I said that
Perhaps you can provide your deep insights to the forum how as BB had total control of the football operations for the past 20 years, picked players and coaches and negotiated their contracts, (presumably with Kraft's blessing) and as how Kraft financed a new stadium and new facilities out of his own pocket to the tune of hundreds of millions, that you've come to the conclusion that Kraft is cheap and extraordinarily meddlesome in the oversight/interest in his multi-billion investment?
 
Oct 12, 2023
1,549
Well two of the three things you said are basically you just making stuff up since Vrabel literally dismissed the past today in his presser and I don’t see anyone on here saying he’s a defensive Whiz. Vrabel said the opposite and that he needed to leave here to learn how everyone else does it.

I’m not sure if you’re trying to do a Felger & Mazz impression but that’s basically their entire go to market, which is very successful. Don’t worry about the outcome, just throw around vagaries, talk about the process and then put in some bullshit.

I’m not saying Vrabels, the wrong choice Mike! But he might not be! Even if he is, why give Kraft any credit? Anyone could have picked Vrabel, how do we know they couldn’t have got someone better?
What are the 2 things I’m making up there?

People here on this forum are saying Vrabel is a talented defensive coach

I think the idea it’s a sham process is pretty obviously supported

He said generic stuff about accountability and playing hard

Those were my 3 points. Which one is untrue? Because 2 and 3 are obvious. The first point, if you’ve read these threads, you will find plenty of discussion about how Vrabel will get the D on track and is a good strategist etc.

I don’t have a problem with Vrabel. But it was a sham hiring process fast tracked because of nostalgia reasons and I dont think he’s ever proven to be anything more than a competent CEO style coach.
 
Oct 12, 2023
1,549
Perhaps you can provide your deep insights to the forum how as BB had total control of the football operations for the past 20 years, picked players and coaches and negotiated their contracts, (presumably with Kraft's blessing) and as how Kraft financed a new stadium and new facilities out of his own pocket to the tune of hundreds of millions, that you've come to the conclusion that Kraft is cheap and extraordinarily meddlesome in the oversight/of his multi-billion investment?
Meddlesome - Grier/Parcells fiasco. Trying to suggest who to draft. Timing guys at workouts with stopwatches to give feedback to Grier.

Cheap - documented lack of cash spending on player payroll and facilities.

Edit - hiring Mayo and this farce of a hiring process doesn’t fit in either of those buckets but is equally as objectionable
 

NortheasternPJ

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Meddlesome - Grier/Parcells fiasco. Trying to suggest who to draft. Timing guys at workouts with stopwatches to give feedback to Grier.

Cheap - documented lack of cash spending on player payroll and facilities.

Edit - hiring Mayo and this farce of a hiring process doesn’t fit in either of those buckets but is equally as objectionable
Holy shit, that stuff was nearly 30 years ago and Kraft has said that he learned from it and he was wrong.

He built Gillette Stadium basically on his own dime.

He did slack off on facilities and player payroll while under BB. They also spent a boatload in 2021 in FA, they fucked last year up. This is my #1 priority to fix and they’re already doing it by building an entire new facility.

I’m not joking, if you don’t listen to Felger and Mazz you should. You’re stealing their favorite talking points.
 

bankshot1

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Meddlesome - Grier/Parcells fiasco. Trying to suggest who to draft. Timing guys at workouts with stopwatches to give feedback to Grier.

Cheap - documented lack of cash spending on player payroll and facilities.
So an experience as a new owner with Parcells 30 years ago?

And enjoying some fun in the sun with the boys and a Rolex?

These provide the basis for your damning conclusion?

BB ran the payroll, Kraft signed the checks, including his check for hundreds of millions to build Fort Foxboro so CBS and Jim Nanz would be comfy doing the 4:30 national game, and 9 AFC championship games over two decades.

Your skimpy body of work provides scant evidence and seems to be driven by some personal animus.


Thanks
.
 
Oct 12, 2023
1,549
So an experience as a new owner with Parcells 30 years ago?

And enjoying some fun in the sun with the boys and a Rolex?

These provide the basis for your damning conclusion?

BB ran the payroll, Kraft signed the checks, including his check for hundreds of millions to build Fort Foxboro so CBS and Jim Nanz would be comfy doing the 4:30 national game, and 9 AFC championship games over two decades.

Your skimpy body of work provides scant evidence and seems to be driven by some personal animus.


Thanks
.
BB wasn’t on staff last year when spending was low as usual.

Kraft, not BB is (was) in charge of team facility spending, stadium and weight room upgrades (etc)

All documented facts about the Pats being below average in spending outside of BB’s realm

No animus. Just facts.

Thanks
 
Oct 12, 2023
1,549
Holy shit, that stuff was nearly 30 years ago and Kraft has said that he learned from it and he was wrong.

He built Gillette Stadium basically on his own dime.

He did slack off on facilities and player payroll while under BB. They also spent a boatload in 2021 in FA, they fucked last year up. This is my #1 priority to fix and they’re already doing it by building an entire new facility.

I’m not joking, if you don’t listen to Felger and Mazz you should. You’re stealing their favorite talking points.
No I don’t listen to sports talk.

Yes I appreciate what Kraft did with building Gillette

I don’t think it’s disputable that he’s been cheap on stadium upgrade and facilities as of late or that cash spending relative to other teams is near or at the bottom

That’s not a hot take. That’s actual demonstrable fact. I’m sorry if you see the pointing out of actual fact as being some sort of WEEI Billy from Weymouth screed

Find me one source that contradicts publicly reported facts about Patriots cash and facility spending being below average recently. Id be happy to change my tune if you can prove me wrong. Everything that has been reported that I’ve seen indicates bad and outdated facilities (the yearly survey) and low cash spending (reported by many places)
 
Oct 12, 2023
1,549
Hey Mods,

Could you split all these posts on the Krafts into a new thread?

Call it: "Why the Kraft suck and you should hate them with every fiber of your being" or something

But it would be good to keep this focused on Vrabel
Calling Kraft cheap and meddlesome (or clueless with hiring) isn’t the same as hating him

Just like calling John Henry cheap or a deadbeat owner (which many around here do) doesn’t correlate to hate or a lack of appreciation for the good things they did

Bob Kraft buying the Pats and keeping them in New England was one of the best things to happen to me as a sports fan. But I’m calling a spade a spade here, the hiring process was a farce and the spending has been below par.
 

Hoya81

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The part where BOB confirmed Vrabel “reached guys individually and got them playing to a higher level”

That seems like nonsense given the 2017 defensive results. It’s just smoke BOB is blowing to talk up a friend. Who on that 2017 Houston D played to a higher level that year? That unit was garbage and several of their best players regressed
To be fair, the Houston D was absolutely decimated by injuries that year. JJ Watt, Brian Cushing and Whitney Mercilus all missed 10+ games due to injuries. And Watson was done for the season after 6 games, which lead to the immortal QB pairing of Tom Savage and TJ Yates, who went 1-10 putting up a 9TD/9INT/1935 YDS statline while completing less than 54% of their passes. So the D was really thrown to the wolves.
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

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The spending, the actual cash spending, has gone in cycles. One of the things the Pats did well in the BB era is avoiding having massive dead money on the cap.

I found this table interesting.

It's a year out of date but it has some interesting facts. The Pats have been going through a 3 or 4 year cycle of upticks and downticks of actual cash spending in the Kraft/BB era. They were 4th in the league in cash spending as recently as 2021. Generally they are one of the lowest ranked teams in the league of cash spending, but that reflects their skill at avoiding a lot of dead money on their books.
 

bankshot1

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The spending, the actual cash spending, has gone in cycles. One of the things the Pats did well in the BB era is avoiding having massive dead money on the cap.

I found this table interesting.

It's a year out of date but it has some interesting facts. The Pats have been going through a 3 or 4 year cycle of upticks and downticks of actual cash spending in the Kraft/BB era. They were 4th in the league in cash spending as recently as 2021. Generally they are one of the lowest ranked teams in the league of cash spending, but that reflects their skill at avoiding a lot of dead money on their books.
BB was efficient and his practice of getting rid of guys 1 year early rather than 1 year too late, probably saved the payroll a lot of bad contracts and a shitload of dead money and got him a few extra 7th round picks. And Brady taking that hometown discount so BB could get him players (?) may have skewed payroll # as well. He was never paid as the best QB in the league.
 

jablo1312

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Do we have any evidence that

-lower "cash" spending on contract has hurt the team in retaining players/signing desirable free agents
-spending less on facilities, maintenance , training, etc. hurt the team in retaining players/signing desirable free agents

Cause other then that I don't really see the impact that has. Obviously both elder and junior Kraft have been more involved in football ops post-Belichick, which basically has never gone well in the history of the modern NFL. Would be nice if they could get out of the way but realistically thats not going to happen until Bob K. is effectively senile.
 

rodderick

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Do we have any evidence that

-lower "cash" spending on contract has hurt the team in retaining players/signing desirable free agents
-spending less on facilities, maintenance , training, etc. hurt the team in retaining players/signing desirable free agents

Cause other then that I don't really see the impact that has. Obviously both elder and junior Kraft have been more involved in football ops post-Belichick, which basically has never gone well in the history of the modern NFL. Would be nice if they could get out of the way but realistically thats not going to happen until Bob K. is effectively senile.
I mean, you want evidence that not spending as much as they could on players impacts signing players?
 

cornwalls@6

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Weren’t the Chiefs at or near the bottom of that NFLPA poll? When you have a HOF coach and QB, nobody gives a fuck about facilities. When you no longer do, it becomes an organizational weakness.
 

lexrageorge

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Cash spending: 2021 was the year of the Judon, Henry, Jonnu Smith, Bourne, Algholor signings. It is the nature of NFL salary cap that cash spending is going to be very lumpy from year to year, as teams that spend a lot of cash in Year 1 are usually capped out in Years 2 and 3, so have less money for signing bonuses for free agents. So far, all the cash spending means is that the Pats very closely managed their cap to avoid massive dead money charges during the Brady years. Last year's free agency period has been discussed ad nauseam. Hopefully they will spend some of their cap space this coming offseason, and spend it wisely. I'm waiting to see what happens before calling Kraft "cheap".

Facilities: they were state of the art when the stadium opened in 2002. Obviously, in the interim period, other teams built newer stadiums or performed major renovations of their own facilities, and the Patriots likely fell behind the pack. Add in the fact that NCAA facilities have also improved greatly during that time, and it's understandable how players could have a poor perception of the training facilities. But, guess what, Kraft will be investing big money in upgrading the facilities over the next couple of years; IIRC, some work will be done this offseason. But, yeah, "Kraft is cheap" is much more satisfying take for some.
 

jercra

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Is this the place to discuss the "sham" hiring process, because I'm just very curious. Is it safe to assume that every other team looking for a coach this year, or last, or the year before, etc. also went through a sham hiring practice and that's how they ended up with a bad coach? Or, is it reasonable to assume that, despite interviewing a large number of people, you're still more likely than not to fire that coach within a few years? Some of the best and longest tenured coaches were hired with the same or fewer candidates as the Patriots this year. Some of the worst were hired with the "right process". If that process doesn't lead to hiring good coaches, why does it have intrinsic value?
 

bankshot1

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Cash spending: 2021 was the year of the Judon, Henry, Jonnu Smith, Bourne, Algholor signings. It is the nature of NFL salary cap that cash spending is going to be very lumpy from year to year, as teams that spend a lot of cash in Year 1 are usually capped out in Years 2 and 3, so have less money for signing bonuses for free agents. So far, all the cash spending means is that the Pats very closely managed their cap to avoid massive dead money charges during the Brady years. Last year's free agency period has been discussed ad nauseam. Hopefully they will spend some of their cap space this coming offseason, and spend it wisely. I'm waiting to see what happens before calling Kraft "cheap".

Facilities: they were state of the art when the stadium opened in 2002. Obviously, in the interim period, other teams built newer stadiums or performed major renovations of their own facilities, and the Patriots likely fell behind the pack. Add in the fact that NCAA facilities have also improved greatly during that time, and it's understandable how players could have a poor perception of the training facilities. But, guess what, Kraft will be investing big money in upgrading the facilities over the next couple of years; IIRC, some work will be done this offseason. But, yeah, "Kraft is cheap" is much more satisfying take for some.
Is there much doubt that if BB went to RK and said, Robert we need an upgrade to our training room (or whatever) and it might cost $20 million, that investment would have been made? In fact it sort of speaks to RKs separation from day to day stuff and the charge he meddled is just a baseless hot take.
 

FL4WL3SS

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The spending, the actual cash spending, has gone in cycles. One of the things the Pats did well in the BB era is avoiding having massive dead money on the cap.

I found this table interesting.

It's a year out of date but it has some interesting facts. The Pats have been going through a 3 or 4 year cycle of upticks and downticks of actual cash spending in the Kraft/BB era. They were 4th in the league in cash spending as recently as 2021. Generally they are one of the lowest ranked teams in the league of cash spending, but that reflects their skill at avoiding a lot of dead money on their books.
I almost raised this point. I think the spending is a red herring and may actually be a feature and not a bug. For the most part, the org has avoided cap crippling contracts and may have contributed to the success of the franchise instead of hurting it.

That's on the player front, but can't say the same on the coaching or FO front. That's where the argument loses for me.
 

Cellar-Door

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My general feel is that Kraft is one of the cheapest owners... now that doesn't always matter on players, but on everything else....
 

bankshot1

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I think it's a fascinating argument that Kraft told the guy who designed and who had total control of football ops for about 2 decades what he needed or could spend money on to get the most out of his football players.
 

bankshot1

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Or who picked up the tab to fly his corporate jet to China to buy impossible to get masks for NYC health care workers during the petrifying early days of COVID.

Cheap prick!
 

Preacher

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Or who picked up the tab to fly his corporate jet to China to buy impossible to get masks for NYC health care workers during the petrifying early days of COVID.

Cheap prick!
I’m not sure if it’s still the case, but when he bought those jets, the Patriots were the only team in the NFL with a team plane. And he bought two of them.
 

Ale Xander

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I heard Kraft isn’t paying any property taxes as part of the deal to self-finance. Is that true?
 

joe dokes

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I heard Kraft isn’t paying any property taxes as part of the deal to self-finance. Is that true?
This is a pretty old article, but.....no (but sort of) and yes.
https://commonwealthbeacon.org/economy/a-ballpark-assessment/



Gillette Stadium in Foxborough also pays about $2 million, but not in the form of property taxes. Randy Scollins, Foxborough’s finance director, says the town owns the land underneath the stadium under an arrangement set up in the early 1970s to help lure the NFL team to the area. The town continued that arrangement by swapping the old stadium footprint for the land under Gillette Stadium when it was built earlier this decade.

Under the arrangement, the Patriots make in-lieu-of-tax payments to the town funded by ticket fees paid by fans. Foxborough receives $1.42 for every ticket sold to soccer and football games and $2.46 for every ticket sold to concerts and other special events.
Scollins says the ticket fees are likely less than what the town would receive if the stadium paid property taxes, but he says it’s an arrangement that has worked well, particularly since the Kraft family has opened Patriot Place near the stadium, adding significantly to the town’s tax base.

And on Patriot Place
https://www.wgrz.com/article/sports/nfl/future-of-the-bills/what-can-wny-learn-from-developing-patriot-place-a-destination-in-foxborough-is-more-than-just-football-buffalo-bills/71-32e8306a-9671-446f-bffa-8a3df22efff2
 
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Myt1

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Or who picked up the tab to fly his corporate jet to China to buy impossible to get masks for NYC health care workers during the petrifying early days of COVID.

Cheap prick!
What does that have to do with what he spent on the team?