Hayward to Boston...Really, We Mean It

cheech13

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Honest question - from a basketball perspective, why would Gordon choose the Heat over the Celtics? Is there a basketball reason?
The Celtics have more talent, better future assets, and the better coach.
It's probably closer than you think. I don't think most superstar players think much about young talent or draft assets unless those guys can become immediate contributors or flipped for other impact talent. Miami has Dragic and Whiteside as their core guys, which isn't that dissimilar from IT/Horford. Stevens is a great coach with whom Hayward has a relationship, but Spoelstra is a damn fine coach as well and Riley still has major cache as a pitch man. And while they weren't the no. 1 seed in the East, the Heat were as good as anybody over the second half of the season and given the organization's history, I think many would buy into that improvement being real.
 

heavyde050

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Thanks for the replies. Yeah it is a lot closer than I originally thought. When non-basketball reasons get added in, it may be a toss-up between the Heat and the Celts.
And I know that I am biased as a Celts fan and completely forgot how good the Heat's record was during the 2nd half.
 

cheech13

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Thanks for the replies. Yeah it is a lot closer than I originally thought. When non-basketball reasons get added in, it may be a toss-up between the Heat and the Celts.
And I know that I am biased as a Celts fan and completely forgot how good the Heat's record was during the 2nd half.
Toss-up seems like a strong word. I still think the most likely scenario is him returning to Utah, but I definitely think he'll listen and consider pitches from Boston, Miami, and Houston.
 

heavyde050

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The weather and lifestyle are better, the Heat were actually a very good team as we all know during the second half of the season (best record in the east for the last 41 games as we all know) and the franchise features Pat Riley. While I agree that Stevens is the better coach, I am admittedly biased by being a C's fan. The truth is that Spoelstra is a damn good coach with a proven track record of doing well with both super-teams and teams filled with non-superstars.
Good point. It was actually the best record in NBA history in the 2nd half for a team not to make the playoffs.

http://thehoopdoctors.com/2017/04/miami-heat-record-in-2nd-half-of-season/
 

heavyde050

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Toss-up seems like a strong word. I still think the most likely scenario is him returning to Utah, but I definitely think he'll listen and consider pitches from Boston, Miami, and Houston.
Good point. I meant toss-up between Boston and Miami with Utah being the favorite.
 

Swedgin

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Toss-up seems like a strong word. I still think the most likely scenario is him returning to Utah, but I definitely think he'll listen and consider pitches from Boston, Miami, and Houston.
FWIW, the conventional wisdom of the moment, seems to be that Hayward is probably not staying with the Jazz.
 

JCizzle

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Just because it's obvious and lazy doesn't mean it's wrong. I'm sure Brad will be a huge selling point despite Utah also having a great coach.
 

cheech13

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FWIW, the conventional wisdom of the moment, seems to be that Hayward is probably not staying with the Jazz.
Can you source that? I stay fairly plugged in on the various NBA chatter and while I've heard tons of speculation regarding Hayward and Boston because of the Stevens connection, I've seen no indication that he's expressed any desire to leave Utah.
 

allstonite

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Mark Titus was on Simmons a few weeks ago and he grew up with Hayward (same high school a few years older than Gordon.) He said the connection was very real because Brad was the first one to recruit him. Hayward had the growth spurt and got recruited by some bigger programs but stuck with Butler. Obviously nobody has any idea how much that will factor in but I wouldn't call it overblown or lazy
 

Swedgin

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Can you source that? I stay fairly plugged in on the various NBA chatter and while I've heard tons of speculation regarding Hayward and Boston because of the Stevens connection, I've seen no indication that he's expressed any desire to leave Utah.
Zach Lowe, who had been of the view that Hayward was probably staying put, indicated on the Lowe Post (I think the one with Arnovitz) that based on what he was hearing his view had changed. Windhorst has made similar comments.

This is not just about the Stevens connection. There are reasons Hayward might leave Utah independent of what Boston specifically can offer. They have the misfortune of being in the West. They may not be able to retain Hill. They refused to give him a max when he was an RFA and made him go out and sign an offer sheet. It is hard to see how they get significantly better with that core etc.

I think the way David Locke has talked about the decision makes a lot of sense. He compared it to a long term relationship or a marriage. While there is a shared history, that history also means there are some scars. A new beginning can have a strong allure.
 

mcpickl

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The media are always pointing out that Utah has a great coach. But does that coach play a system that Hayward likes? They are last in pace every season. My guess would be besides Stevens possible advantage in signing Hayward because of their personal relationship, I'd guess his style of play is an advantage as well.
 

Kid T

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Think Kevin O'Connor on one of the Ringer podcasts also mentioned that the two players Hayward hangs out with most on the team are Hill and another player whose name I didn't catch but is also a FA. So when discussing appeals from team mates to stay, the guys who the players hang out with most carry the most weight.
 

Jed Zeppelin

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Think Kevin O'Connor on one of the Ringer podcasts also mentioned that the two players Hayward hangs out with most on the team are Hill and another player whose name I didn't catch but is also a FA. So when discussing appeals from team mates to stay, the guys who the players hang out with most carry the most weight.
Joe Ingles.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Think Kevin O'Connor on one of the Ringer podcasts also mentioned that the two players Hayward hangs out with most on the team are Hill and another player whose name I didn't catch but is also a FA. So when discussing appeals from team mates to stay, the guys who the players hang out with most carry the most weight.
The other guy is Joe Ingles. http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865680481/Upstill-Gordon-Hayward-has-a-lot-to-consider-this-offseason.html.

Jazz want Hill back and Hill wants to come back (assuming Hoyword is still there) but the ? is how much money will Hill want / get.
 

Eddie Jurak

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It's probably closer than you think. I don't think most superstar players think much about young talent or draft assets unless those guys can become immediate contributors or flipped for other impact talent. Miami has Dragic and Whiteside as their core guys, which isn't that dissimilar from IT/Horford. Stevens is a great coach with whom Hayward has a relationship, but Spoelstra is a damn fine coach as well and Riley still has major cache as a pitch man. And while they weren't the no. 1 seed in the East, the Heat were as good as anybody over the second half of the season and given the organization's history, I think many would buy into that improvement being real.
Thanks for the replies. Yeah it is a lot closer than I originally thought. When non-basketball reasons get added in, it may be a toss-up between the Heat and the Celts.
And I know that I am biased as a Celts fan and completely forgot how good the Heat's record was during the 2nd half.
The big difference between the two is probably draft assets.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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The other guy is Joe Ingles. http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865680481/Upstill-Gordon-Hayward-has-a-lot-to-consider-this-offseason.html.

Jazz want Hill back and Hill wants to come back (assuming Hoyword is still there) but the ? is how much money will Hill want / get.
The Spurs seem like a natural suitor for Hill's services. Of course, he may have some sour grapes given that they traded him (though Hill would be smart to acknowledge why the Spurs made that deal) but then again, its the Spurs.

As for Ingles, he is a nice player (and "nice" is perfect for him - I bet he has a mini-van and wears khakis on off days) and the Jazz tendered him making him an RFA so he is almost certainly staying put.
 

JakeRae

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It's probably closer than you think. I don't think most superstar players think much about young talent or draft assets unless those guys can become immediate contributors or flipped for other impact talent. Miami has Dragic and Whiteside as their core guys, which isn't that dissimilar from IT/Horford. Stevens is a great coach with whom Hayward has a relationship, but Spoelstra is a damn fine coach as well and Riley still has major cache as a pitch man. And while they weren't the no. 1 seed in the East, the Heat were as good as anybody over the second half of the season and given the organization's history, I think many would buy into that improvement being real.
This dramatically understates the difference in the 2 teams. I'll grant you coaching and front office as a wash. All of Ainge, Riley, Spoelstra, and Stevens are really good at what they do. Riley is a living legend. Stevens has a personal connection. Either could be a difference maker, but at the end of the day, I don't see huge separation in coaching/GM quality.

But, the Heat are coming off being a lottery team. The Celtics are coming off being the 1 seed and a conference finalist. It's silly to just compare Dragic and Whiteside to IT and Horford because the rest of the rosters exist and matter and Crowder, Bradley, and Smart are all good NBA players and a significant part of why the Celtics are a really good basketball team. The only way they don't count is if the Celtics are also adding George, which once again illustrates why the team quality comparison isn't actually close. (Johnson is coming off a very strong season and deserves a mention as quality depth for the Heat, although he's also a FA. Waiters is probably the next option and he remains a pretty mediocre NBA player.)

Dragic is not close to the player that IT is. Even if you throw out last year entirely for IT, Dragic still isn't close to as good as he is. Thomas is a much better shooter, a better passer, he turns the ball over less, and he does all of that with a much, much higher usage. Dragic is closer in quality to Smart than he is to IT. Pick any statistical measure, and even accounting for IT being a horrifically bad defender, they are not close. They also aren't close in terms of reputation.

Whiteside v. Horford is a closer call. Horford has a much longer track record of being a high quality and reliable player, but Whiteside improved significantly last year overall, and there's a case that he's just as good as or slightly better than Horford right now. RPM, for example, likes him a bit more. WS likes him a fair bit more. BPM/VORP think he's a lot worse. Overall, I think you'd fairly consider this a wash.

Adding all that up and what were left with is a Celtics team with better top end talent, better depth, and similar coaching. The team's respective performances a year ago bear this out. The Celtics are, quite simply, a much better basketball team. It is possible that Riley has a complicated vision that he can sell of how he can turn his team into a contender, but it's hard to see what it is. If I were ranking the Hayward frontrunners in terms of team quality (ignoring future assets and guys who have yet to play in the NBA), it goes, Boston > Utah with Hill > Utah without Hill > Miami. If you count future assets, the ordering stays the same but their is a gulf instead of a gap between Boston and Utah/Miami.

Hayward may sign in Miami. He's obviously considering it seriously. But, if he does, he's going to be competing for home court in the first round, not a Finals appearance or a championship.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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One thing working against #Jazz in Gordon Hayward sweepstakes: per source, he's upset with Utah's reluctance to pay Hill/Ingles big money.
That's got to be an awkward conversation between GH and UT brass.

"Why haven't you signed George yet?"

"Umm, because he's not worth the money he's asking for and if we sign him for what he's asking, we're going to cap hell and will never be able to get better . . . ?"
 

JCizzle

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Danny can get Wyc to bust out the checkbook and show how much he's going to have to pay the year after this one to keep this team together if everything comes to fruition. Lotsa tax money is in his future if this works out.
 

luckiestman

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Danny can get Wyc to bust out the checkbook and show how much he's going to have to pay the year after this one to keep this team together if everything comes to fruition. Lotsa tax money is in his future if this works out.

How are The Celtics doing in terms of operations? Can they pay the tax and still be profitable?
 

BigSoxFan

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How are The Celtics doing in terms of operations? Can they pay the tax and still be profitable?
Depends on how much luxury tax we're talking about here. Most teams are not very profitable on a year-to-year basis. I'm sure the Celtics did well last year because of making the ECF and hosting a ton of home playoff games. And their renewal rate on tickets is going to be good given the current interest level and prospects over the coming years. Wyc certainly won't want to live in luxury tax land but they can definitely swing it for a year or 2 if he thinks they have a legit chance of making deep runs, which would help offset the incremental cost.
 

jmm57

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https://www.google.com/amp/nba.nbcsports.com/2017/06/07/report-warriors-sweep-could-cost-team-22-million-in-lost-gate-revenue/amp/

Warriors sweeps cost them 22mil in gate revenue. So if you are convinced they team can make a deep run and grab some extra gates, you can really offset that luxury tax.

The cavs got hit with a $54 mil tax bill in 2016 and are reported to have lost $40 mil. No idea how legit those numbers are, but the tax numbers are mostly quite a bit more tame.....Unless you traded all of your future assets for the last couple years of Pierce and Garnett
 
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luckiestman

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Depends on how much luxury tax we're talking about here. Most teams are not very profitable on a year-to-year basis. I'm sure the Celtics did well last year because of making the ECF and hosting a ton of home playoff games. And their renewal rate on tickets is going to be good given the current interest level and prospects over the coming years. Wyc certainly won't want to live in luxury tax land but they can definitely swing it for a year or 2 if he thinks they have a legit chance of making deep runs, which would help offset the incremental cost.

That's not too good. Wyc is rich but he isnt rich enough to lose 20 million a year for a few years.
 

nighthob

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How are The Celtics doing in terms of operations? Can they pay the tax and still be profitable?
With national TV revenues of $90+ million per season and skyrocketing ad rates on the cable station they're now part owners of? I think they'll be fine paying a little luxury tax.
 

Jed Zeppelin

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https://www.google.com/amp/nba.nbcsports.com/2017/06/07/report-warriors-sweep-could-cost-team-22-million-in-lost-gate-revenue/amp/

Warriors sweeps cost them 22mil in gate revenue. So if you are convinced they team can make a deep run and grab some extra gates, you can really offset that luxury tax.

The cavs got hit with a $54 mil tax bill in 2016 and are reported to have lost $40 mil. No idea how legit those numbers are, but the tax numbers are mostly quite a bit more tame.....Unless you traded all of your future assets for the last couple years of Pierce and Garnett
I assume a number like that is funny money gymnastics that allows whatever tax shenanigans rich people/business use to their advantage. Could be wrong, but I believe this is the sort of thing that had NFL owners crying poor despite record profits or whatever.
 

vicirus

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How are The Celtics doing in terms of operations? Can they pay the tax and still be profitable?
Lots of different variables here, but if they were to sign Hayward, trade for George, and use the Room Exception they're be around $110MM this year, so no 2018 tax. In 2019, they'd be adding $5-8MM worth of draft picks (assuming LA pick is traded), and another $15-25MM for an IT extension. That's $130-$143MM and doesn't include resigning Smart (if they don't trade him) or annual increases to the other rostered players. The following year, Horford likely opts out and lowers his annual salary by ($10MM). If they continue to back fill with draft picks they could theoretically be back at or below the tax line.

Many variables here, but I think there wouldnt be as big of a luxury tax bill/roster crunch as people are projecting after 2019. The Celtics are in the incredibly unique situation of having tons of incoming cheap labor over the next 3+ Years (draft picks) and may be in a position to trade/replace players such as IT and Horford if a cheaper alternative shows to be capable.
 

Imbricus

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According to Bovada:
  • Heat 22.4% (+270 odds)
  • Jazz 33.2% (+150)
  • Celtics 44.4% (-115)
That seems about right, except I'd take about 12% off the Heat's chances and divvy it up between the Jazz and the Celtics. I think Miami's a longer shot than one in five. Also, notice Miami is first on the list to visit. In these situations, I think you're better off if you're last (or near last) because you get to counter the other team's arguments and leave your pitch fresh in the player's mind. So Boston's in a good spot. One last thing: I bet Hayward still remembers the time the Jazz made him go out and get an offer from Charlotte, and it still stings a bit.
 

nighthob

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One last thing: I bet Hayward still remembers the time the Jazz made him go out and get an offer from Charlotte, and it still stings a bit.
Especially since they made that decision to save themselves a few million over the life of the contract.
 

Swedgin

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Especially since they made that decision to save themselves a few million over the life of the contract.
Worth remembering because 1) these guys have egos/pride and an unwillingness to pay all that a team can is seen as a slight, 2) they would not be in this position if they had just given him the max as an RFA and 3) the inability to get an extension done with Hill serves as a reminder of 1 and 2.
 

Grin&MartyBarret

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Why? Hill is a really good player and they don't have another capable PG on the roster.

Do you really think the Jazz would walk away from Hayward because they didn't want to sign George Hill?
 

Grin&MartyBarret

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Yes, I understand what's being suggested. I'm saying that it's insane to think that Utah is so opposed to re-signing Hill that they'd let Hayward walk away as a result. Hill's a good point guard. They were very good when he was healthy this year. His is not the sort of contract that's so scary that you blow up your entire team to avoid having it on your books.