I'd be curious in a professional opinion - would rehab and preparation be different planning for a return this year as opposed to next year? I'd assume so, especially given the need for conditioning and whatnot, but obviously I'm not an expert.
Hayward's Injury
- Thread starter ifmanis5
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Given all the chair shooting he’s been doing he could probably shoot threes FROM the bench.
I expect that his return will be based on his ankle being healed to the extent of being able to take the pounding of an NBA game. Prior to reaching that point, his ankle will have healed so that he can do aerobic conditioning work, that is less stressful on the ankle than NBA game play. So when he comes back, I don't expect conditioning to play much of a role in how many minutes he plays.
In other words, not rushing him back won't necessarily equate to starting off at 10 min/game. I think his playing time will be related to how effective he is, and though he may not be quite 100% Hayward effective, he'll be more effective than the players he'll be taking minutes from. I expect he'd hit the ground running, so to speak.
So I'm wondering why you think he may be starting off at 10 min/game as you didn't mention conditioning. Is it conditioning, effectiveness, or something else?
I think that the rehab is different because of who he is and what he does for a living. If I slip on the ice and break my leg, the rehab is aimed towards returning my ability to do activities of daily living. When GH breaks an ankle, he starts at a different point (professional athlete) and his goal is an endpoint that is much stronger and with more flexibility than I would have. His rehab is much more rigorous and does not end when he returns to play. He returns to play when he is ready and I don’t think planning has anything to do with it.
All of the above, partially conditioning to be sure, but there is a lot of mental anxiety that comes with returning from a major injury like that.
The 10 minute number was just casually thrown out there, but in general the first game or two back from a huge injury are about getting over the mental hump as much as anything. I'd be surprised if Brad et al. didn't try to ease him back into it.
It's not easy to trust your body again after that, and throw in not being in NBA shape, being rusty, etc. I wouldn't expect him to come back and be able to play like nothing ever happened.
This is of course getting ahead of ourselves to some degree... if Hayward is playing any regular season minutes at all this year, even if its limited, that's a giant win.
I understand your point but cardio conditioning is far different than competing in an NBA game. He's going to be winded and will need time to get his legs/conditioning back to game shape along with overcoming the mental barriers that Radsox mentioned. I would expect Brad to initially utilize him in Ojeleye's role which is roughly 7-8 min in the first half and 5-6 in the second for around 14 mpg.......then base the progressions based on a combination of Hayward''s production along with how much he (and the training staff/Brad) feel he can handle. If all goes well he'll be taking some of Smart's minutes as well pushing him into the mid-20's or more......again, depending on the factors mentioned above.
The minutes comp based on conditioning/production I'd look at is Kyrie when he returned from missing 3 1/2 months with a bad toe injury at Duke. Coach K said Kyrie would be limited to used him off the bench and off the ball in the first two rounds. He played 20 and 21 minutes in those game with 8 and 4 FGA respectively while being winded and struggling with conditioning. Then in Round 3 after several days off he played 31 minutes off the bench and went off for 28 in a loss to Arizona. That is about the best case I can envision.
This all goes without saying, and is part of the reason I was hoping for a professional's input. The question is more along the lines of whether there is Protocol 1 for NBA player returning to play in X months and Protocol 2 for him returning to play in a year and whether there would be any risk of following Protocol 1 that might hurt his ability to shift to Protocol 2 if the time frame turns out to be unworkable.
Thanks for Kyrie at Duke comp. I understand the points that you and radsoxfan are making, but I'm sticking with being a bit more optimistic about Hayward's playing time IF he returns this season. I'm basing that on the Celtics be certain about the ankle health before he plays in a game. In other words, I don't think he'll actually be in an NBA game until he has had sufficient conditioning and near-NBA level practices under his belt. Then again, if my assessment is correct that the Celtics will take his return slowly, that lowers the actual chance that he plays this season.
In 1985-86 22 year-old Michael Jordan broke his foot in Game 3 of the regular season (10/29/85). He returned 3/15/86 and played 13 minutes. By his 7th game back he went over 20 minutes, and he played a total of 15 regular season games upon his return and worked his way back over 30 minutes.
On 4/20/86 he played 53 minutes and scored 63 points against the Celtics.
On 4/20/86 he played 53 minutes and scored 63 points against the Celtics.
He broke his foot, he didn’t nearly snap it off at the ankle. That’s kind of a pointless comparison.
The last 10+ posts have all been about conditioning (from 'stationary bike riding' or 'running' shape to 'game' shape), so the comparison isn't pointless.
There's cardiovascular conditioning which can be done on with little to no impact on the ankle, but there's also the dynamic conditioning he'll need to get used to jumping repeatedly that he can only build back up by practicing. I have no doubt the entire time he could've used 100 different machines to get in great cardio shape.
I'm sure most people here have seen it but great SI article on GH here: https://www.si.com/nba/2017/12/20/gordon-hayward-ankle-injury-boston-celtics-brad-stevens-kyrie-irving
To respond to Marciano's question, i don't think anyone would try to speed up his rehab to try to get him on the court this year but he should be practicing before the season is over so maybe at that point they might get more aggressive.
To respond to Marciano's question, i don't think anyone would try to speed up his rehab to try to get him on the court this year but he should be practicing before the season is over so maybe at that point they might get more aggressive.
Great article, though a bit rah-rah and hagiographic. I liked the stories about his gaming as an escape, and would have loved more quotes from him about that and what he thinks cross-applies.
And if he doesn't make it, that boy isn't our last hope. There is... another.
And if he doesn't make it, that boy isn't our last hope. There is... another.
Great article, though a bit rah-rah and hagiographic. I liked the stories about his gaming as an escape, and would have loved more quotes from him about that and what he thinks cross-applies.
And if he doesn't make it, that boy isn't our last hope. There is... another.
Nice of him to let her have the Rumble Pack.
I don't feel we are disagreeing much with the exception of the preparation to be healthy and able to take the floor. Starting Gordon off at 15-20 for a couple of games while quickly building him up to 25-30 isn't far off from what you're saying unless I'm mistaken. This isn't Willis Reed here where we are wondering how much he can give us due to an injury it is a matter of NBA playoff level conditioning......which cannot in any way be imitated without competing at that level. An NBA-level practice isn't typically very intense during the course of the season and especially near the end of an 82-game schedule so Hayward isn't going to have these practices under his belt. Those will come in the form of his buildup in minutes in my (projected/wish list) final 6 games of the regular season.
I’m not 100% sure on it, but I think no. G League would require a two way contract and you can’t have that unless you have 4 or less years service time. Beyond that, normal allocation is only for first or second year guys. I think he’d be precluded, but could easily be corrected on that.
He played an intrasquad scrimmage and practice with them for one day, I'm not sure how that translates to ability to do an actual rehab stint. Like I said, I'm just going off reading/interpreting the rule and there doesn't seem to be a loophole, but again, I could easily be corrected.
Edit: and there ya go, I was wrong.
Edit: and there ya go, I was wrong.
Per Smokey Joe:
Its very likely that Hayward will spend some time playing in G League games if he can begin "playing" by March as their season ends that month. IT4 was just assigned to the Cavs G league affiliate this week and is, for the time being, teammates with old friend Kendrick Perkins.
More at the G League FAQ link
Its very likely that Hayward will spend some time playing in G League games if he can begin "playing" by March as their season ends that month. IT4 was just assigned to the Cavs G league affiliate this week and is, for the time being, teammates with old friend Kendrick Perkins.
If people think that I'm being aggressive with my April 6th return what would they think about rushing Hayward back 2-3 weeks early to play one of Maine's final 2 G-League games against scrub rats? I don't ever see this happening.
Ha-Ha. Everyone was thinking that the G-league schedule mirrored the NBA schedule. At least I was.
Great Haberstroh piece on Hayward’s recovery (both physical and mental), in case anyone missed it: http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2751046-the-gordon-hayward-experiment
Thanks for sharing the Haberstroh piece. Some very interesting nuggets around VR.
“Virtual reality has already hit the NBA. Last season, StriVR worked with athletes such as Detroit Pistons center Andre Drummond and Washington Wizards center Ian Mahinmi to improve free-throw shooting simply by having them watch themselves make free throws in VR.”
Paging Mr. Jaylen Brown. [emoji1]
“Virtual reality has already hit the NBA. Last season, StriVR worked with athletes such as Detroit Pistons center Andre Drummond and Washington Wizards center Ian Mahinmi to improve free-throw shooting simply by having them watch themselves make free throws in VR.”
Paging Mr. Jaylen Brown. [emoji1]
That was a fun read - thanks for sharing. Seems like Celtics/Hayward are in great 'place' with the recovery process, and taking every effort to make sure Hayward returns if and when he is truly ready.
If he's out of the brace and we have eye emoji I'm not concerned with how it looks (and it could just be the picture). Bigger thing I notice is the atrophy in that calf.
If a seeming ankle weirdness "could just be the picture", couldn't the same be said about calf atrophy? If course one calf will likely be a bit behind, but I wouldn't draw conclusions from one picture.
Take it FWIW but this guy is a foot and ankle surgeon at Duke and seems to be fairly well respected:
It's behind a paywall, but the Boston Sports Journal's doctor said the same thing. She predicts light running in a few weeks and thinks March/April is doable for a return to practice, but he'd have to come to grips playing at less than 100% for ten min at a time. It's a good read for people with access.
This is to be expected but it only takes a couple weeks to return to normal once training begins. This is the least of any worries.
Good to hear of this same timeline from doctors that mirror what Shavlik Randolph initially said at the time of the injury.
I did the same thing and totally agree! It’s seems extremely thin, even for such a lean person, but also has an odd curve.
I cant put much concern into the Picture. We are looking at it from a Picture pretty far away. Doctors, Trainers and Hayward himself dont notice an issue in person from a foot away? Evidently not as they are progressing "rapidly/at a better then expected clip" in rehab AND they dont seem to mind him tweeting out pictures (however far away) of it.
Why do you Tweet out something like this? Seems to me a "humble brag" if you will. "Look at how good things are progressing".
They didnt have to say/tweet anything.
So If there was "something weird" with it I would expect they would be backing off the rehab and someone would say "Maybe we shouldnt be tweeting this out". IE there is nothing to brag about, there is still some concern so lets just "stay quiet/keep a low profile" until we know more.
Why do you Tweet out something like this? Seems to me a "humble brag" if you will. "Look at how good things are progressing".
They didnt have to say/tweet anything.
So If there was "something weird" with it I would expect they would be backing off the rehab and someone would say "Maybe we shouldnt be tweeting this out". IE there is nothing to brag about, there is still some concern so lets just "stay quiet/keep a low profile" until we know more.
Or partying in Vegas and hitting his injured extremity multiple times in the process.
Just kidding, I doubt he's the jackass Gronk is.
I'm not a doctor, but I have to imagine that if he's set shooting now he will be physically able to play basketball in two months. It's just a matter of whether he will be physically able to get into game shape and play effectively.
It was a set shot, but he definitely was putting pressure on his ankle by rising up on the tip of his feet.
Here's the video.