Henry & Bloom booed at Winter Weekend

YTF

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FWIW, I was there yesterday and not there on Friday night. There was overwhelming excitement and positivity from fans in attendance. People were excited to see players and optimistic about the season.

At the kids press conference, Chris Sale came off as really engaged and optimistic.

I’m sure after a few beers on a Friday night that some element of the crowd in attendance felt the need to take out their frustrations with life on John Henry.

But that was not the vibe I got from the vast majority in attendance yesterday.
Thanks for this.
 

geoflin

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I do think the team has done a poor job communicating their strategy.
Is it their responsibility to communicate their strategy? Sure, we all would like that to happen. Do other teams communicate their strategy to fans?
 

KingChre

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I think it's totally acceptable to boo whoever and whenever. It's a little silly to act like it's some sort of great act of disrespect or morally reprehensible in anyway.

That being said, I believe Henry deserves the scorn way more than Bloom. His inability to read that room is a feature, not a bug and just another sign of his tone-deaf nature. Yes, he's been successful, and I completely understand how older fans recoil at what they perceive as entitled behavior from spoiled fans. However, Henry continues to put his foot in his mouth at every conceivable opportunity. It's the constant mixed messaging that drives people nuts. He just doesn't come off as a real or trustworthy person in anyway.

Chaim has been solid in his tenure. He clearly has a vision, and I think it's working (albeit slowly), but I have serious questions about his ability to read the market. I think he's more of less done what he had been instructed to do when he was hired however, so I don't personally have many issues with him.

I do however have a big problem with a billionaire owner who continually hides behind past successes, who cries about baseball players being expensive while simultaneously owning 2 other major sports franchises that were purchased after the Red Sox. The same owner who has presided over numerous PR missteps from large to small. The same owner who almost never answers direct questions from the press and when he does, it's almost always in a newspaper he owns.

So yes, John Henry has brought me great joy, I'm grateful for that. I also think he's a two-faced, overly sensitive, out of touch man child who refuses to take accountability for any of his mistakes. If I had the opportunity I'd boo him too.
 

snowmanny

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Is it their responsibility to communicate their strategy? Sure, we all would like that to happen. Do other teams communicate their strategy to fans?
Well they said in the summer that they planned to extend Bogaerts and then they said in the fall that he was their priority. So if you communicate that that is your plan and fail to execute it and don’t really explain what happened when then you did a poor PR job.

And they said they didn’t meet expectations last year and were going to add 8-9 pieces that would make them competitive this year but the fans, so far, do not feel they’ve delivered on their promises, so that didn’t seem great either.

They absolutely could keep their mouths shut and say trust us, a la BB, but in this case they sort of actually did openly discuss their strategy and I think so far it has not helped their case.
 

YTF

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I'll wear proudly griping about the decision making of Henry and Bloom over the past several years. Yes, they have hit on certain players and it's not all one way. But comparing the squad that Bloom inherited to the one he has now should make anyone who loves the Sox shake their head. I am not at all optimistic about the 2023 Red Sox and I wish I could be. And I hope that I am wrong and that I have to take it all back.

I would have booed Chaim Bloom loudly had I been in attendance. He deserves it in my opinion. And I certainly wouldn't have given one shit about what fans of other teams might think, or that some Boston fans might disapprove.

That said, I am unable to boo John Herny. Four titles buys him a lot of equity with me, and that I think he has, on an overall basis, presided over a dumpster fire since 2019 doesn't erase my gratitude for all the prior good.
This seems to be some sort of battle cry by some throughout these forums. Take a look at that particular team and other than Betts, who publicly stated that he was going to explore free angency and Bogaerts what exactly did he inherit that looks much better than the team projected to open this season? Take a look at the roster from that 84 win team and tell me how much better you think it is compared to what is projected to start this season.
https://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/BOS/2019.shtml
 

YTF

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Is it their responsibility to communicate their strategy? Sure, we all would like that to happen. Do other teams communicate their strategy to fans?
I sort of agree with Manny. I get that things don't always go as planned and have no issue with a need to move in a different direction, but the messaging about such pivoting hasn't been stellar. The argument about needing to discuss strategy in this instance is sort of moot. They offered, it didn't go as planned at times and they come off poorly in some of the explanations.
 

nvalvo

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That the team now has some minor league pitching depth doesn’t really have anything to do with the state of the team in 19 vs 22 or the transition of GM’s though, does it? Their relative pitching depth now is primarily a result of development of guys who were here already, advancing through the system. None of the top pitching prospects in the system were acquired by trading players from the 19 team, for example.

Of the Sox top 25 prospects, only one of them (Frank German, #24) is a pitcher acquired since Bloom took over.

(You could argue that the depth is there in part because the team hasn’t traded many pitchers, of course.)
This is, of course, fair. But the players have to be developed and, as you say, not traded.
 

joe dokes

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He says we can't take half a decade to rebuild -- what exactly does he think is happening right now?

His whole rant is incoherent given subsequent contracts they gave out.
I think he's talking about not giving a shit about how many wins they get, in order to (presumably) build for the future. That's what they aren't doing.
 

joe dokes

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I think it's totally acceptable to boo whoever and whenever. It's a little silly to act like it's some sort of great act of disrespect or morally reprehensible in anyway.

That being said, I believe Henry deserves the scorn way more than Bloom. His inability to read that room is a feature, not a bug and just another sign of his tone-deaf nature. Yes, he's been successful, and I completely understand how older fans recoil at what they perceive as entitled behavior from spoiled fans. However, Henry continues to put his foot in his mouth at every conceivable opportunity. It's the constant mixed messaging that drives people nuts. He just doesn't come off as a real or trustworthy person in anyway.

Chaim has been solid in his tenure. He clearly has a vision, and I think it's working (albeit slowly), but I have serious questions about his ability to read the market. I think he's more of less done what he had been instructed to do when he was hired however, so I don't personally have many issues with him.

I do however have a big problem with a billionaire owner who continually hides behind past successes, who cries about baseball players being expensive while simultaneously owning 2 other major sports franchises that were purchased after the Red Sox. The same owner who has presided over numerous PR missteps from large to small. The same owner who almost never answers direct questions from the press and when he does, it's almost always in a newspaper he owns.

So yes, John Henry has brought me great joy, I'm grateful for that. I also think he's a two-faced, overly sensitive, out of touch man child who refuses to take accountability for any of his mistakes. If I had the opportunity I'd boo him too.
So he's an asshole for showing up in Worcester. And he was also an asshole for *not* showing up at Devers's press conference. I agree that the guy is a shitty public speaker.
 

Toe Nash

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This whole thing is frustrating because spending is not why the Red Sox finished last. It's because their drafting and player development was mediocre to bad from about 2012-2020 (Jury out on the recent years). Betts may have kept them out of the cellar last year but the bigger problem was that they gave 1750 PA to guys with negative WAR because the farm has only produced a couple of MLBers in the last ten years.

2011 was a great draft where they got Betts, JBJ, Shaw and Barnes (and Swihart who flamed out). After that here are the guys with more than 2 career bWAR the Sox have drafted:
2012: None
2013: None
2014: Kopech (1st round supplemental) - traded for Sale
2015: Benintendi (1st round pick 7)
2016: Santiago Espinal (10th round) - traded for Steve Pearce
2017: Houck (1st round)
2018: Casas (1st round) Doesn't have 2 career WAR yet but will probably get there)
2019: None (Maybe Matthew Lugo will have a career)

So that's basically two players in 8 years who helped the MLB team, and only one draft pick who wasn't a first rounder that provided any value to anyone. For international signings they signed Devers in 2014 and Bello in 2017.

I don't want Henry and Bloom re-signing guys for huge deals who may not be worth it because the fans got mad or patching a team together through cheaper free agents and waiver signings and hoping they all have career years. I want Henry and Bloom fixing the scouting and player development system so that they can have homegrown, cheap, MLB-caliber players throughout the team so they can then add a key market-level contract or two at positions of need or extend the next three homegrown stars for a long time. Hopefully this is happening and will bear fruit in a few years as their farm system ranking has climbed, but these guys are still prospects until proven otherwise.
 

Trlicek's Whip

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I have no idea why. I am always courteous to service providers.

If you equate Chaim Bloom's repeated bad decision making to a one time, likely very innocent mistake, then your math is way off.
I'd argue the Red Sox, as with all sports/entertainment franchises, are seen as a service industry by too many fans - which is where entitlement reeks the most. Peak-Steinbrenner's Yankees fed their fanbase this "sorry we fucked up your latte" whenever they didn't win a ring.

Asking to see the manager when your order's wrong or the general manager when you don't like the team's standings shouldn't be the same thing.
 

geoflin

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And they said they didn’t meet expectations last year and were going to add 8-9 pieces that would make them competitive this year but the fans, so far, do not feel they’ve delivered on their promises, so that didn’t seem great either.
They have added Jansen, Kluber, Martin, Mills, and Rodriguez to the pitching staff and Turner, Yoshida, and Duvall as hitters. In addition they have signed Goodrum, Alfaro, and Tapia to minor league contracts. And there are still 3 1/2 weeks before spring training begins.
So they have added the number of pieces they said. Whether those pieces make them competitive remains to be seen and personally I have my doubts so I can understand that fans don't feel they've delivered. But at least in numbers they have done what they said they would do.
 

JCizzle

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Is it their responsibility to communicate their strategy? Sure, we all would like that to happen. Do other teams communicate their strategy to fans?
"Trust the Process" earned Sam Hinkie a ton of leeway and a surprising amount of buy-in from a notoriously laid back Philly fanbase.
 

KingChre

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So he's an asshole for showing up in Worcester. And he was also an asshole for *not* showing up at Devers's press conference. I agree that the guy is a shitty public speaker.
I give him credit for at least showing up to this thing. Its a step in the right direction.

However his track record shows that this type of appearance is a rare exception. If this is the beginning of a new era of accountability I'll gladly eat some crow. However his words and actions leave me with very little belief that this was anything but a one off.
 

snowmanny

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They have added Jansen, Kluber, Martin, Mills, and Rodriguez to the pitching staff and Turner, Yoshida, and Duvall as hitters. In addition they have signed Goodrum, Alfaro, and Tapia to minor league contracts. And there are still 3 1/2 weeks before spring training begins.
So they have added the number of pieces they said. Whether those pieces make them competitive remains to be seen and personally I have my doubts so I can understand that fans don't feel they've delivered. But at least in numbers they have done what they said they would do.
Well, ok. It's not that hard to add 7-9 pieces. Adding 7-9 pieces to build a contender-which is what Bloom said - is another matter. Maybe they did that, and "contender" is a vague term. To me, the off-season was ~ok. But I get the angst.
 

YTF

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I give him credit for at least showing up to this thing. Its a step in the right direction.

However his track record shows that this type of appearance is a rare exception. If this is the beginning of a new era of accountability I'll gladly eat some crow. However his words and actions leave me with very little belief that this was anything but a one off.
What exactly is his track record for showing up at this type of appearance?
 

A Bad Man

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I mean, we had a tough year, so people are venting. Board was alight with a rosy glow after ‘21. Combine with the sentimentality around Xander, and you’ve got boos at the WW. It’s all pretty straightforward.
 

geoflin

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Well, ok. It's not that hard to add 7-9 pieces. Adding 7-9 pieces to build a contender-which is what Bloom said - is another matter. Maybe they did that, and "contender" is a vague term. To me, the off-season was ~ok. But I get the angst.
I'm really not in disagreement with most of your points but rather quoting you to continue the discussion.
Bloom said they would add 8-9 pieces to make them competitive. Each time they added a piece which required dropping a prospect from the 40 man roster thus resulting in the possibility or actuality of losing him the fans complained about that. So the front office is damned if they do and damned if they don't. I don't know that it's so much a matter of communication from the front office but rather a function of a fan base that "requires" communication about planning and overall vision and strategy as well as competitiveness and a real chance to win on a yearly basis. I don't think this is realistic but it's been this way for years and isn't likely to change. So my point is that despite the constant expressions of disgruntlement from the fans, I don't hold the front office and its communication or lack thereof to be the problem.
 

Sandy Leon Trotsky

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Well they said in the summer that they planned to extend Bogaerts and then they said in the fall that he was their priority. So if you communicate that that is your plan and fail to execute it and don’t really explain what happened when then you did a poor PR job.

And they said they didn’t meet expectations last year and were going to add 8-9 pieces that would make them competitive this year but the fans, so far, do not feel they’ve delivered on their promises, so that didn’t seem great either.

They absolutely could keep their mouths shut and say trust us, a la BB, but in this case they sort of actually did openly discuss their strategy and I think so far it has not helped their case.
Would it have been better strategy to say, “X is looking for 8-10 years at a crazy amount that we believe he won’t be worth in 2-3 years and will prevent us from stapling down a young core for the next decade”?
 

burstnbloom

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Speaking of true fans...THIS is one of just 6 posts in 17 years.
And probably the last. What a run?

I get why people are upset with where this team is in its build cycle but I can't imagine traveling to Springfield to boo John Henry. It's petulant and entitled at best. This team didn't resign Pedro. It traded Nomar and Jon Lester. The franchise recovered. I'm upset that Mookie Betts isn't here anymore. I am also sad to see Xander go, but it seems really "low information" to say that there isn't a plan here. The plan is really obvious to me. They want to build a strong player development system that will consistently supplement the major league roster at low cost. That seems prudent. They have consistently made low risk moves at the MLB roster level to supplement their chances but have mostly adhered to that plan. Last years trade deadline decisions notwithstanding. I have a hard time getting all that upset about the marginal moves they make at the top of the roster because they are clearly trying to plug gaps and get lucky to contend earlier in that build process. That's what happened in 2021 but this board talked about how fortunate that team was to get where they ended up.

I think I'd be more upset if they were paying big dollars for medicore players on long term deals because it would hamper the long term plan. All of the other teams in the division are doing this draft and develop plan and are further in the process than the Red Sox. Trying to compete by spending without the system behind it would almost certainly result in long term failure. I guess we could expect John Henry to spend $350m a year to try to contend every year at all costs but there is only one team in the sport doing that. The Mets. I'd prefer to live with more realistic expectations.

But I guess go to Springfield and boo because they didn't resign a player 5 years ago. It's bizarre.
 

Harry Hooper

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I wouldn’t boo Henry or Bloom, but I do think the team has done a poor job communicating their strategy.
Lying is certainly poor communication, and Bogaerts being a top priority seems to be a claim that was never true. Yes, claim was couched with some caveats, but the team got the headline it wanted.

We are in some weird terrain going forward, as in the team's operating premise might be to never sign a big extended contract for a FA or near-FA who didn't break into the bigs at age 20 or 21. That might be financially prudent, but will it be too limiting in terms of accumulating talent on the roster? Still mulling that over myself.
 

HangingW/ScottCooper

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I'm sorry to say that I think this all might be my fault. I'm a Disney fan, I play Magic the Gathering and I'm a Red Sox season ticket holder. All three are in rough shape right now. Disney had the foresight to get rid of their CEO, but they replaced him with the old CEO that appointed him, Magic the Gathering is doubling and tripling down on their mistakes, and the Red Sox seem ignorant to the fact that things are wrong.

I've been lukewarm on Bloom since the beginning, but fully admit that in 2021 I saw him before an ALDS game and thanked him. My hope was that myself and the other pessimists were wrong and that the guy that should be the smartest person with regards to team construction is in charge of constructing the team. I think for the most part, there are many smaller moves that Bloom makes that we're on board with. There are two trades that obviously stand out as losses (Mookie and Renfroe), but my bigger issue is that he has yet to truly push or finish a plan. 2021 trade deadline he needed Schwarber and a 1st baseman, 2022 trade deadline he needed to get under the luxury cap, with Xander if he felt he could just let him go, he didn't push for another middle infielder.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, he doesn't push to complete the "plan".
I think it's totally acceptable to boo whoever and whenever. It's a little silly to act like it's some sort of great act of disrespect or morally reprehensible in anyway.
I believe it was Alan Embree talking about Boston that said, "They boo you because they want to cheer you". I've used that expression on several occasions.
 

cornwalls@6

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I’m surprised at the level of concern some have over Henry, Kennedy, and Bloom being booed. As long as it didn’t cross the line into anything more nasty, profane, or threatening, who cares? Part of being in the sports business, and they can take it. And I sure as hell don’t think it makes someone who did boo a bad fan, or a broken person getting drunk and taking out their frustrations with life on poor John Henry. Personally, I would not have booed, partly because it’s just not my thing, and also because I think the off-season has gone better than a lot of the fan base does. XB got an insane overpay from SD, that I would not have chased either. Beyond that, IMO, they’ve added several potentially useful pieces, extended their still only 26 year old star offensive player, and managed it all without blowing by the luxury tax threshold. The Story injury sucks, but I really don’t think anyone mismanaged that, and hopefully he will still contribute at some point this season. I’m actually somewhat optimistic about this year. But my speculation on Jan. 22 isn’t anymore valid than those who are not excited about the season, and decided to express that to ownership and FO the other night.
 

Archer1979

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I just clicked on a Tomase article. Disappointed that Archer didn't indicate in the OP that the writer was Tomase. That should be a rule or something.
The funny thing about this and I probably wouldn't have even brought this up originally, but my son was at MGM Friday night (after all this) celebrating a birthday with some friends. They were sitting in a bar and didn't realize it, but was he sitting next to Chaim Bloom. He was tempted to introduce himself but said that Bloom didn't look like he was having much fun. The next morning I read this article and could see why.

This didn't seem worthy of a new thread...
@Sille Skrub Made me a liar!!!

This is going to be a little convoluted and may be a product of Sunday morning posting which is where I tend to get in trouble, and I preface this to say that I probably wouldn't have been joining on the booing but...

Most of the incentive of the front office to put a winning team on the field is to make money. Sox fans (aka are the customer and have reputation (deserved or not) of being a passionate fan base. If things aren't going well in the fans' eyes, of course booing is going to happen. We've booed Williams, Pedro. We might have even booed Wally the Green Monster. It's immediate feedback for the powers that be. Booing. It happens.

In this case, it doesn't necessarily mean that we're ungrateful or that we're entitled. It means that we don't see a clear path forward to having a team that contends. I generally look forward to watching a Sox game, but 2022 was a tough year. It's difficult to get up for watching a Sox/Yankee game knowing that any chance of winning relies upon a fluke and not because the Sox have the better team. They clearly didn't have a better team in most series last year which is why they simply were not competitive for most of the year. Let's be realistic, success breeds expectation. Despite that the 2021 team was one series sweep against the Nationals from missing the 2021 playoffs, the post-season success raised the bar on what most considered to be a bridge year. That the "bridge year" resulted in being two games away from a WS appearance suggested that the Sox were showing greater progress in their timeline than anticipated... so of course expectations were higher in 2022. Instead... we got what we got. It's not entitlement, just feedback that they need to do better than a last place finish.

Like I said earlier, I don't really see a clear path forward and certainly don't see where this team is appreciably better than last year's edition. I suspect that a lot of those booing on Friday probably don't see it either. But if these guys are going to charge $6 for a pretzel, it doesn't stretch credibility that the customer would voice it's displeasure if the product on the field is lacking.
 
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BigSoxFan

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I’m surprised at the level of concern some have over Henry, Kennedy, and Bloom being booed. As long as it didn’t cross the line into anything more nasty, profane, or threatening, who cares? Part of being in the sports business, and they can take it. And I sure as hell don’t think it makes someone who did boo a bad fan, or a broken person getting drunk and taking out their frustrations with life on poor John Henry. Personally, I would not have booed, partly because it’s just not my thing, and also because I think the off-season has gone better than a lot of the fan base does. XB got an insane overpay from SD, that I would not have chased either. Beyond that, IMO, they’ve added several potentially useful pieces, extended their still only 26 year old star offensive player, and managed it all without blowing by the luxury tax threshold. The Story injury sucks, but I really don’t think anyone mismanaged that, and hopefully he will still contribute at some point this season. I’m actually somewhat optimistic about this year. But my speculation on Jan. 22 isn’t anymore valid than those who are not excited about the season, and decided to express that to ownership and FO the other night.
Agree with this post. These are grown men. They don’t need other grown men/women sticking up for them. It’s part of the territory, much like hearing from annoyed fans when a player K’s with runners on in a big spot. This ownership group has been very successful. They don’t “owe” us anything but that doesn’t mean that people who disagree with the current performance/direction should remain silent or have their fanhood constantly questioned.

I truly don’t know how this story ends. There is enough talent to have some hope in the next couple years but there is a lot of development needed to get us there. This year’s roster is just very uninspiring but it’s sports and stranger things have happened. Signing Devers long term was a good start but there is a ton more work ahead of this team. I really, really hope Yoshida is the real deal. Would go a long way.
 

Sandy Leon Trotsky

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I’m surprised at the level of concern some have over Henry, Kennedy, and Bloom being booed. As long as it didn’t cross the line into anything more nasty, profane, or threatening, who cares? Part of being in the sports business, and they can take it. And I sure as hell don’t think it makes someone who did boo a bad fan, or a broken person getting drunk and taking out their frustrations with life on poor John Henry. Personally, I would not have booed, partly because it’s just not my thing, and also because I think the off-season has gone better than a lot of the fan base does. XB got an insane overpay from SD, that I would not have chased either. Beyond that, IMO, they’ve added several potentially useful pieces, extended their still only 26 year old star offensive player, and managed it all without blowing by the luxury tax threshold. The Story injury sucks, but I really don’t think anyone mismanaged that, and hopefully he will still contribute at some point this season. I’m actually somewhat optimistic about this year. But my speculation on Jan. 22 isn’t anymore valid than those who are not excited about the season, and decided to express that to ownership and FO the other night.
Because basically that was the shit that I hate the most about Yankee fans.
 

YTF

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The funny thing about this and I probably wouldn't have even brought this up originally, but my son was at MGM Friday night (after all this) celebrating a birthday with some friends. They were sitting in a bar and didn't realize it, but was he sitting next to Chaim Bloom. He was tempted to introduce himself but said that Bloom didn't look like he was having much fun. The next morning I read this article and could see why.



@Sille Skrub Made me a liar!!!

This is going to be a little convoluted and may be a product of Sunday morning posting which is where I tend to get in trouble, and I preface this to say that I probably wouldn't have been joingin on the booing but...

Most of the incentive of the front office to put a winning team on the field is to make money. Sox fans (aka are the customer and have reputation (deserved or not) of being a passionate fan base. If things aren't going well in the fans' eyes, of course booing is going to happen. We've booed Williams, Pedro. We might have even booed Wally the Green Monster. It's immediate feedback for the powers that be. Booing. It happens.

In this case, it doesn't necessarily mean that we're ungrateful or that we're entitled. It means that we don't see a clear path forward to having a team that contends. I generally look forward to watching a Sox game, but 2022 was a tough year. It's difficult to get up for watching a Sox/Yankee game knowing that any chance of winning relies upon a fluke and not because the Sox have the better team. They clearly didn't have a better team in most series last year which is why they simply were not competitive for most of the year. Let's be realistic, success breeds expectation. Despite that the 2021 team was one series sweep against the Nationals from missing the 2021 playoffs, the post-season success raised the bar on what most considered to be a bridge year. That the "bridge year" resulted in being two games away from a WS appearance suggested that the Sox were showing greater progress in their timeline than anticipated... so of course expectations were higher in 2022. Instead... we got what we got. It's not entitlement, just feedback that they need to do better than a last place finish.

Like I said earlier, I don't really see a clear path forward and certainly don't see where this team is appreciably better than last year's edition. I suspect that a lot of those booing on Friday probably don't see it either. But if these guys are going to charge $6 for a pretzel, it doesn't stretch credibility that the customer would voice it's displeasure if the product on the field is lacking.
Thanks for this. IMO, the reaction to some of the negativity here isn't exclusive to what happened at MGM on Friday, but rather in response to some of the posts here about it. I've mostly supported Bloom and ownership, but have no issue in expressing disappointment in some of the moves or non moves made. The level of anger and outrage expressed by some is really puzzling to me.
 

Phil Plantier

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We might have even booed Wally the Green Monster.
Raises hand.

In this case, it doesn't necessarily mean that we're ungrateful or that we're entitled. It means that we don't see a clear path forward to having a team that contends.
I think there's a difference between "booing a team off at halftime" and "booing in perpetuity," and this is more like the former. Fans know what the front office is capable of, but do not believe the work has been good enough. I agree.

Edit: put another way, there's a difference between "you're performing terribly right now" and (to borrow a soccer phrase) "you're not fit to wear the shirt"
 

LogansDad

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Lying is certainly poor communication, and Bogaerts being a top priority seems to be a claim that was never true. Yes, claim was couched with some caveats, but the team got the headline it wanted.

We are in some weird terrain going forward, as in the team's operating premise might be to never sign a big extended contract for a FA or near-FA who didn't break into the bigs at age 20 or 21. That might be financially prudent, but will it be too limiting in terms of accumulating talent on the roster? Still mulling that over myself.
They offered him almost $200 million. What about that screams, "Not actually a top priority!"

Accusing people of lying without proof is pretty spectacular.

They wanted him back, on a reasonable deal. Bogaerts was always going to test free agency unless the Sox did something really stupid. They held the line and let San Diego do something really stupid instead.

If their goal is to not pay anyone $25M+ into their 40's so that they can actually field a team of people who aren't eligible for AARP, then it seems like there are a lot of people who are going to be disappointed. And those people should probably not quit their day jobs to work in a professional sports front office.

As for the booing, I'm glad I wasn't one of the fans who paid a ton of money to have a good time only to probably spend the entire weekend within earshot of these incessant trolls.
 

KingChre

New Member
Jul 31, 2009
130
What exactly is his track record for showing up at this type of appearance?
How exactly would you like me to answer this? Would you like me to go back to 2003 and find every single opportunity he's had to answer questions publicly and give you a ratio on what times he's showed up and which he's not? Is that actually the information you are looking for?

I don't believe that's what you're looking for. Perhaps you didn't understand my point and you'd appreciate more clarity.

He doesn't answer questions enough and when he does he shows very little understanding, accountability or empathy.

If you believe he has been proficient in these areas or just don't believe it's relevant, fair enough, but it seems pretty evident that viewpoint is not shared by a majority of the fan base.
 

YTF

Member
SoSH Member
How exactly would you like me to answer this? Would you like me to go back to 2003 and find every single opportunity he's had to answer questions publicly and give you a ratio on what times he's showed up and which he's not? Is that actually the information you are looking for?

I don't believe that's what you're looking for. Perhaps you didn't understand my point and you'd appreciate more clarity.

He doesn't answer questions enough and when he does he shows very little understanding, accountability or empathy.

If you believe he has been proficient in these areas or just don't believe it's relevant, fair enough, but it seems pretty evident that viewpoint is not shared by a majority of the fan base.
I said nothing about answering questions, just asked what his track record was as to attending these sorts of events. Not everything is an attack.
 

Steve Dillard

wishes drew noticed him instead of sweet & sour
SoSH Member
Oct 7, 2003
5,932
This seems to be some sort of battle cry by some throughout these forums. Take a look at that particular team and other than Betts, who publicly stated that he was going to explore free angency and Bogaerts what exactly did he inherit that looks much better than the team projected to open this season? Take a look at the roster from that 84 win team and tell me how much better you think it is compared to what is projected to start this season.
https://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/BOS/2019.shtml
I guess the "other than Betts... and Bogaerts" is carry a lot of water there.
But under that premise, let me ask you how he as actually *improved" the 84 win team in his four years. I look at the roster, and I guess (a) Story over Nunez/Holt at 2B, and (b) a guy he inherited, Casas over Moreland.
Maybe Yoshida will outplay Benintendi.

For pitching, Eduardo and Evoldi are gone, replaced by Pivetta (and Whitlock) and a bunch of 1 year guys (Watcha/Kluber/Hill/Paxton), and another guy he inherited (Bello)

So, looking at it from the other perspective, what has Bloom done to create a longer term foundation from improve an 84 win team from 2019, other than trade for a decent rotation guy (Pivetta), bring in Whitlock, sign a minimal impact 2b (Story) and let two guys (Casas/Bello) age progress through the system?
If the goal was to dismantle an unsustainable team, we are in year 4 of the rebuild, and he did poorly in getting nothing for Bogarts/Martinez, little for Moreland/Vasquez and poor value in that dismantling (Verdugo/Pivetta)
 

Traut

lost his degree
Lifetime Member
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Jul 20, 2005
12,750
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I sort of agree with Manny. I get that things don't always go as planned and have no issue with a need to move in a different direction, but the messaging about such pivoting hasn't been stellar. The argument about needing to discuss strategy in this instance is sort of moot. They offered, it didn't go as planned at times and they come off poorly in some of the explanations.
At the 2013 team panel yesterday - Dave O'Brien went out of his way to remind the audience that fans were griping that offseason about a bunch of what seemed like minor moves for guys like Gomes, Napoli, Victarino, Holt, Ross, and Koji. He asked the team themselves if they believed they could win the World Series in Spring Training and they said they did not.

Their strategy this offseason has been relatively clear. They needed to reset the luxury tax. They have done this. They have added pieces and some depth to this roster that wasn't present last year. They locked up Devers long term. And if the pitching staff takes a step forward this team could compete for a wild card.

Trevor Story having surgery sucks. But injuries happen to every team.

You can not like the results or the message but I don't think most people who have been paying attention believed this offseason would unfold differently (letting X sign elsewhere and adding pieces). Locking up Devers was in question and they delivered on this. Next year you have better free agents, guys like Cases and Bello get real MLB experience, guys like Mayer, Rafaela, and Yorke all get a year closer, you have Devers, and no real long term contracts that hinder much of anything.

All of this is separate from the question of if Bloom is the right guy but I really don't know what one could reasonably expect different in terms of messaging in general. Also separate from John Henry being generally clueless when he opens his mouth.

They should have just let Dave O'Brien handle the messaging on Friday night.
 

Minneapolis Millers

Wants you to please think of the Twins fans!
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
4,753
Twin Cities
How exactly would you like me to answer this? Would you like me to go back to 2003 and find every single opportunity he's had to answer questions publicly and give you a ratio on what times he's showed up and which he's not? Is that actually the information you are looking for?

I don't believe that's what you're looking for. Perhaps you didn't understand my point and you'd appreciate more clarity.

He doesn't answer questions enough and when he does he shows very little understanding, accountability or empathy.

If you believe he has been proficient in these areas or just don't believe it's relevant, fair enough, but it seems pretty evident that viewpoint is not shared by a majority of the fan base.
Your overall observation might be correct. I’d make two points, though. First, some owners are very public, some let others handle PR. Henry’s more the latter. Second, there’s a little irony here given that Henry literally joined as a member and posted in moderated chats on this very fan-run message board. Too long ago to get credit for, apparently.
 

Quatchie

New Member
Jul 23, 2009
75
It has been mentioned a few times but I think there are two things that have hurt the Red Sox more than anything.

1) I think they've struggled to adapt to the last few CBA changes involving the CBT and international spending. 2) I think they've really lost the ability to draft and develop well with Bloom. I don't think Bloom's moves since taking the job really show that he has an eye for talent outside of Whitlock. I don't see it, and the constant narrative of fans citing they don't see what the plan is largely is because Blooms moves have been questionable at best. I think Bloom is in over his head and is not the right guy.
 

YTF

Member
SoSH Member
I guess the "other than Betts... and Bogaerts" is carry a lot of water there.
But under that premise, let me ask you how he as actually *improved" the 84 win team in his four years. I look at the roster, and I guess (a) Story over Nunez/Holt at 2B, and (b) a guy he inherited, Casas over Moreland.
Maybe Yoshida will outplay Benintendi.

For pitching, Eduardo and Evoldi are gone, replaced by Pivetta (and Whitlock) and a bunch of 1 year guys (Watcha/Kluber/Hill/Paxton), and another guy he inherited (Bello)

So, looking at it from the other perspective, what has Bloom done to create a longer term foundation from improve an 84 win team from 2019, other than trade for a decent rotation guy (Pivetta), bring in Whitlock, sign a minimal impact 2b (Story) and let two guys (Casas/Bello) age progress through the system?
If the goal was to dismantle an unsustainable team, we are in year 4 of the rebuild, and he did poorly in getting nothing for Bogarts/Martinez, little for Moreland/Vasquez and poor value in that dismantling (Verdugo/Pivetta)
So you answer the question that I ask of another poster with a completely different question?
 

Max Power

thai good. you like shirt?
SoSH Member
Jul 20, 2005
7,878
Boston, MA
If the goal was to dismantle an unsustainable team, we are in year 4 of the rebuild, and he did poorly in getting nothing for Bogarts/Martinez, little for Moreland/Vasquez and poor value in that dismantling (Verdugo/Pivetta)
The entire point is that they're not in a blow it up rebuild and they're trying to compete while not trading away the future. That means that you'll trade away guys who are easily replaceable for lottery tickets (Moreland and Vazquez), but not trade away the guys who are going to help you compete right now (JD and Xander). And you'll want to keep your good prospects rather than trading them away for in season upgrades. So no, they won't get anything for free agents who walk.

Maybe the guys he's been getting back aren't that good and he doesn't have the right eye for talent, but I don't see anything particularly confusing about what Chaim's been trying to do. Whether he's the right guy to do it is the question that will be answered soon.
 

torpedero

New Member
Dec 17, 2022
9
the fans are terribly ungenerous, they don't realize how hard the life of a billionaire can be and they don't recognize Bloom's great competence
 

pk1627

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
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May 24, 2003
2,514
Boston
See my post upthread. We are entering year 4, in which no one expects the Sox to be competitive. So, year 5 will be next year. A half decade.

Yes, they competed in 2021 and were competitive for stretches of 2022. But it's going to be a half decade rebuild either way.
They were uncompetitive!!! Except of course when they were competitive.
 

LogansDad

Member
SoSH Member
Nov 15, 2006
29,058
Alamogordo
It has been mentioned a few times but I think there are two things that have hurt the Red Sox more than anything.

1) I think they've struggled to adapt to the last few CBA changes involving the CBT and international spending. 2) I think they've really lost the ability to draft and develop well with Bloom. I don't think Bloom's moves since taking the job really show that he has an eye for talent outside of Whitlock. I don't see it, and the constant narrative of fans citing they don't see what the plan is largely is because Blooms moves have been questionable at best. I think Bloom is in over his head and is not the right guy.
I'm going to assume for the sake of my insanity that this is a troll post, but whatever.

Bloom took over at the end of 2019. That ear, Brayan Bello had been a 20 year old kid who got lit up in the SAL to the tune of a 5.43 ERA. Since then, he has become one of the most promising young starters to come up through the Sox system, at 23 years old.

Triston Casas was already a top-100 guy, but has continued to develop into what looks like at minimum a solid MLB first baseman, with incredible upside.

I will give you that Mayer fell into his lap, but he made what appeared to be the "right" pick at the time, and he is progressing well through the minors.

He signed Miguel Bleis (January 2021) who is currently being universally praised as a guy who will rocket up prospect lists this season.

They have multiple pitchers on the cusp, who will likely be ready to step in this year when an MLB pitcher inevitably gets injured, a couple of who project to be MLB regulars (or better) at some point.

Tanner Houck was a guy walking everyone in AAA in 2019, and is now regarded in any capacity from mid-rotation starter (again, something this team has not been good at developing during this century), a top shelf reliever, or the centerpiece of a trade for a major contributor.

He stole Whitlock, who you mention, so you know this.

And more, and more, and more.

He isn't perfect, but to say they have "lost the ability to draft an develop" makes me wonder if you are watching a different sport than me.
 

KingChre

New Member
Jul 31, 2009
130
Your overall observation might be correct. I’d make two points, though. First, some owners are very public, some let others handle PR. Henry’s more the latter. Second, there’s a little irony here given that Henry literally joined as a member and posted in moderated chats on this very fan-run message board. Too long ago to get credit for, apparently.
I remember him posting, and I remember him discontinuing that for whatever reason.

At this point I do have to admit that he's kind of screwed either way he acts. It's a situation he created for himself so I feel no pity for him, but I don't see how he changes public perception anytime soon.

Signing Devers was a huge first step, and clumsily stammering through this appearance is actually a welcome second one. I hope they've realized that more transparency is needed before trust is regained.

I'm not overly optimistic that he is going to become the new Bob Kraft, but he doesn't need to be. I'm totally fine with an owner who stays out of the way. I'd just like a consistent, transparent message from him when he speaks. It hasn't been that way in several years from FSG.
 

Minneapolis Millers

Wants you to please think of the Twins fans!
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
4,753
Twin Cities
Folks might want to review the Astros history since 2011, when they went into full tank/rebuild mode. Four or so years of near bottom payrolls (this, in a big, 4th-largest-city-in-the-country market) and 70 or fewer win seasons each year. But then they started to emerge in 2015 and have been perhaps the most consistently dominant team in the league since then. And they’ve managed that while letting some of their most popular players go (Springer, Correa, Verlander) and having the mL system well enough developed to replace them cheaper internal options.

Bloom basically just told us that the Sox could have done this but didn’t because Boston fans wouldn’t like or accept that kind of 5 year rebuild, and that the team felt an obligation to take a more balanced approach. And he’s absolutely right. We have tons of posters here killing him for trying to engage in a competitive rebuild, winning more games than those tanking Houston teams, while also keeping payroll up by paying for gap-filling vets on shorter deals. I can’t imagine what these boards would be like if the team were fully tanking. Some would probably see the value in it, but many others would be going ballistic.

Some are going to respond to this by pointing to the Yankees. They’ve spent and remained consistently competitive; why can’t Boston? Of course, there are Yankee fans who bemoan the good-not-great results; the lack of a WS appearance, let alone title, for over a dozen years; the inability to get past those same Astros….
 

tims4wins

PN23's replacement
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
37,059
Hingham, MA
They were uncompetitive!!! Except of course when they were competitive.
Would you disagree with the statement that they have been rebuilding since 2020, and that it will likely take at least another year or two until they are rebuilt?
 

Petagine in a Bottle

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 13, 2021
11,921
I think the point is that we really don’t know yet if Bloom has the ability to draft and develop, none of his players have made the big leagues yet (by no fault of his own- it’s largely too soon). I think it’s fair to state that the key pieces obtained in the return for Betts, Benintendi, and Renfroe, though, have underwhelmed.

The “pitchers on the cusp” are all guys that predate Bloom (so he gets some credit for develop) but it remains to be soon how useful any of them will be- there’s some quantity but none of them are top prospects (and it doesn’t seem like the team is counting on much from any of them this year, to be fair).

I think it’s pretty clear that this is the pivotal year to see how Bloom’s plan is working; if the team starts getting contributions from the minors as hoped / expected, the path forward looks a lot more appealing and the endless cycle of short term additions, some hit and some miss, probably ebbs a bit. Will be fun to follow the AA and AAA box scores for sure.