HOFers bring up concerns with Manfred (Athletic)

Petagine in a Bottle

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While there may be some element of truth to that, their concerns hardly seem unique to their age, it echos much of what us diehards here have been complaining about too, no? Especially after a 4.5 hour game last night.
 

jon abbey

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While there may be some element of truth to that, their concerns hardly seem unique to their age, it echos much of what us diehards here have been complaining about too, no? Especially after a 4.5 hour game last night.
Their whining seemingly had nothing to do with game length:

“The objections raised by the Hall of Famers include the rise of defensive shifts and the offensive emphasis on launch angle, as well as rules changes such as the three-batter minimum and automatic runner on second base in extra innings.”
 

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There's a problem when baseball Hall of Famers (like Carew) who used to watch (by his admission) six-to-eight games a day now only watch one.

Simply saying, "Old man yelling at clouds" is not a great look.
 

jon abbey

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There's a problem when baseball Hall of Famers (like Carew) who used to watch (by his admission) six-to-eight games a day now only watch one.

Simply saying, "Old man yelling at clouds" is not a great look.
I think anyone who watches 6-8 baseball games a day and is not being paid a lot of money to do so has a problem.

Clearly there are major issues with baseball currently, just as clearly the ones listed above are mostly irrelevant.
 

jon abbey

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Again, there are major problems on and off the field with the sport. This article and these former players address none of them.
 

Leather

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I think this isn't really a fair representation of what Carew et al.'s concerns were. He specifically called out an over-emphasis on launch angle, yes, but also the use of the ghost runner in extra innings and an overreliance on the shift. But the main thrust of his (and others, such as Andre Dawson) frustration is that Manfred seems openly dismissive of their concerns and isn't willing to engage.
 

Petagine in a Bottle

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Again, there are major problems on and off the field with the sport. This article and these former players address none of them.
So, defensive shifts and launch angle revolution are not a problem? Because I swear I’ve heard people here complaining about them, as well as the Manfred man ghost runner. Their complaints seem pretty similar to those of other, younger, not as accomplished fans.
 

jon abbey

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It seems like rules against defensive shifts will be instituted next year, I hope Carew can go back to enjoying 47 games per day again after that.
 

jon abbey

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Other fundamental problems that desperately need to be addressed:

Better linking of performance to salary (the new CBA did this some but not nearly enough).

The option system, which too often keeps teams from fielding their best roster to try to maintain better depth.

The playoff system, in which the #2 seed will almost always have an easier draw than the #1 seed.

That's just a few, the runner on second in extra innings is not one of them. I can see it bugging people but it is really not a big deal either way.
 

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Other fundamental problems that desperately need to be addressed:

Better linking of performance to salary (the new CBA did this some but not nearly enough).

The option system, which too often keeps teams from fielding their best roster to try to maintain better depth.

The playoff system, in which the #2 seed will almost always have an easier draw than the #1 seed.

That's just a few, the runner on second in extra innings is not one of them. I can see it bugging people but it is really not a big deal either way.
None of that has much to do with the game on the field. We know you love the three true outcomes game, but many other people find it boring.

The reason pitchers are better than ever is that teams have too many of them and can use them for shorter and shorter stints. If they all can throw every pitch with max effort, then they're going to be harder to hit than ever. It can't change overnight, but baseball needs to work toward developing pitchers who can throw multiple innings and limiting the number of active ones on each roster. 13 is still too high. The pitch clock should help a bit with it, too.
 

Comfortably Lomb

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Non-story IMO, cranky old guys don’t like change.
There's a heavy dose of this but my read is what the cranky old guys really don't like are too many smart people running things behind the scenes. We all know there are plenty of problems with baseball and the product on the field but what these guys don't like is analytics? The extent to which so many older players literally did not understand the game they were playing is entertaining.
 

jon abbey

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We know you love the three true outcomes game
Honestly I don't really care either way, I just want to see teams trying their best to win.

The reason pitchers are better than ever is that teams have too many of them and can use them for shorter and shorter stints.
I don't think this has much to do with it, I think it's mostly that the science behind pitching is infinitely more advanced now than it was even five or ten years ago.
 

jon abbey

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There's a heavy dose of this but my read is what the cranky old guys really don't like are too many smart people running things behind the scenes. We all know there are plenty of problems with baseball and the product on the field but what these guys don't like is analytics? The extent to which so many older players literally did not understand the game they were playing is entertaining.
Exactly, thank you.
 

Scoops Bolling

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Better linking of performance to salary (the new CBA did this some but not nearly enough).
Not possible, not going to happen. When people talk about performance to salary, they almost always mean free agent dollars to wins. The problem is, the only wins that are actually worth what teams pay to free agents are wins that put a team directly in line for playoff contention. The first 70 or so wins a team gets, have virtually zero marginal revenue attached. Another 15 or so, getting you into the mid-80s and the start of playoff contention, have quite limited marginal revenue. It's really just those playoff wins that bring substantial marginal revenues with them. Further exacerbating this problem, is the modern MLB revenue structure, with TV rights and national deals, a huge percentage of overall revenue is entirely disconnected from production; you can't increase your marginal revenue from those deals, or assign value from them to any given player in any rational way. So if you wanted to actually link salary to performance, you'd have to completely, wholly and fundamentally alter the entire salary structure. If you try and do something like a straight average value of a win, you would have to do something like paying guys after the season based on their production up to a set percentage of revenues (to account for the revenue streams not affected by performance) and divvied up according to their respective production. Free agency and a real link of salary and performance for all players, at all levels of service time, is incongruous.
 

Max Power

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Honestly I don't really care either way, I just want to see teams trying their best to win.
I want to see an entertaining game of baseball being played. When the best way to win makes for a less watchable product, you have problems. Baseball is selling entertainment, not just winning. If all I wanted to see was winning, I could watch any sport where my local team was winning. I pay most attention to baseball because I like the game.
 

Max Power

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Not possible, not going to happen. When people talk about performance to salary, they almost always mean free agent dollars to wins. The problem is, the only wins that are actually worth what teams pay to free agents are wins that put a team directly in line for playoff contention. The first 70 or so wins a team gets, have virtually zero marginal revenue attached. Another 15 or so, getting you into the mid-80s and the start of playoff contention, have quite limited marginal revenue. It's really just those playoff wins that bring substantial marginal revenues with them. Further exacerbating this problem, is the modern MLB revenue structure, with TV rights and national deals, a huge percentage of overall revenue is entirely disconnected from production; you can't increase your marginal revenue from those deals, or assign value from them to any given player in any rational way. So if you wanted to actually link salary to performance, you'd have to completely, wholly and fundamentally alter the entire salary structure. If you try and do something like a straight average value of a win, you would have to do something like paying guys after the season based on their production up to a set percentage of revenues (to account for the revenue streams not affected by performance) and divvied up according to their respective production. Free agency and a real link of salary and performance for all players, at all levels of service time, is incongruous.
I think he meant paying younger players more and older players less, not basic actual pay on a formula derived from someone's performance. It should have happened in the last CBA, but the owners were dead set against it.
 

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It seems like rules against defensive shifts will be instituted next year, I hope Carew can go back to enjoying 47 games per day again after that.
So you think that guy who spent his entire ife in baseball, is a Hall of Famer, is still a part of the game today and still manages to watches a ton of baseball shouldn’t gripe? Because YOU say baseball is fine?

LOL.That’s a take, I guess.
 

jon abbey

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So you think that guy who spent his entire ife in baseball, is a Hall of Famer, is still a part of the game today and still manages to watches a ton of baseball shouldn’t gripe? Because YOU say baseball is fine?

LOL.That’s a take, I guess.
Nah, anyone can gripe as much as they want, but their gripes should be rooted in reality or people can criticize those gripes, which is all I'm doing. I started multiple threads here in 2018 titled "Baseball Is Broken", and that hasn't really changed. Criticizing 'analytics' is just absurd as @Comfortably Lomb said a few posts up, and it's hard for me to take anyone seriously who does that.

Also, FWIW, I freaking loved Rod Carew as a player.

Edit:

https://sonsofsamhorn.net/index.php?threads/baseball-is-broken-on-the-field-proposed-rule-changes-attendance-etc.23672/

https://sonsofsamhorn.net/index.php?threads/baseball-is-broken-off-the-field-labor-relations-etc.22257/
 

Max Power

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Nah, anyone can gripe as much as they want, but their gripes should be rooted in reality or people can criticize those gripes, which is all I'm doing. I started multiple threads here in 2018 titled "Baseball Is Broken", and that hasn't really changed. Criticizing 'analytics' is just absurd as @Comfortably Lomb said a few posts up, and it's hard for me to take anyone seriously who does that.
Rob Manfred also says analytics have hurt the way the game is played. From the linked article...

“No. 1: Analytics has had a deleterious effect on the way the game is being played on the field,” Manfred said.

“No. 2: Analytics are not going away because clubs correctly believe that analytics can be used to help them win more games, which is what they care about most.

“No. 3: No matter who you are, how effective you are, what power you have, you can’t eliminate analytics by fiat. It’s like telling people what they can and can’t think about.

“No. 4: Because all of that is true, the way forward to getting to what Theo often refers to as ‘the best form of baseball’ is to change the infrastructure, the rules within which clubs operate, in order to get the clubs to place value on the things that are missing from the game.”
But yes, it's just old men complaining about things they don't understand.
 

jon abbey

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I mean, not sure why we are taking Rob Manfred's words seriously, but even given that, he makes my point exactly:

"No. 3: No matter who you are, how effective you are, what power you have, you can’t eliminate analytics by fiat. It’s like telling people what they can and can’t think about."

I definitely disagree with his point 1 there, though. Maybe stop changing the fucking ball and then changing it back, Rob.
 

Marciano490

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It’s kind of an interesting larger question - the role of data and intelligence in sports. I think there’s a general poopooing of smarts in athletics. “Cerebral” is often used in fighting as a bit of a backhanded compliment. The idea is that athletics are about physical competition, and those without the physical skills are somehow shortcutting.

Obviously, I strongly agree with this intellectually, by it has some emotional resonance.

What’s funny to me is that football seems like the sport that has become incredibly complicated in my lifetime. I watch more NFL than any other league and played as a kid, but have no idea how to read blitz coverages or protection packages, but I suppose that doesn’t really affect pace of play.

Still, the baseball analytics stuff all makes intuitive sense to me. Hit the ball where they ain’t. Throw the ball where they can’t hit it.
 

jon abbey

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Cranky old white guys is MLB's target audience.

If your last and most loyal demographic group tells you, you have a problem with the product, you might want to listen.
There are plenty of problems with the product but one of the points here is that the complaints listed in that article are not especially connected to the problems. The main problem is the games are too long, so Carew etc want to get rid of the ghost runner in extra innings?
 

DJnVa

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Their whining seemingly had nothing to do with game length:

“The objections raised by the Hall of Famers include the rise of defensive shifts and the offensive emphasis on launch angle, as well as rules changes such as the three-batter minimum and automatic runner on second base in extra innings.”
Those same things have been debated here and we're not all cranky old men.

Yet.
 

DJnVa

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There are plenty of problems with the product but one of the points here is that the complaints listed in that article are not especially connected to the problems. The main problem is the games are too long, so Carew etc want to get rid of the ghost runner in extra innings?
You have like half the responses in here. Maybe take a step back.
 

Comfortably Lomb

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But yes, it's just old men complaining about things they don't understand.
Well, analytics are a "problem" in that the smartest way to the play the game is seemingly not the most entertaining way to play the game. It may be possible to encourage an entertaining form of baseball on the field through rule changes but what these HOFers seem to really want is stupider front offices, managers, and players who just go back to playing the game the old way. That's not going to happen.
 

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How many of these guys are just bitter that they haven’t been given cushy manager, front office or TV jobs after retirement because the sport has been taken over by those “nerds“ who never played? Jim Kaat turned his final game on MLB Network into an airing or grievances that the commentary of guys like him wasn’t appreciated anymore.
 

PC Drunken Friar

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How many of these guys are just bitter that they haven’t been given cushy manager, front office or TV jobs after retirement because the sport has been taken over by those “nerds“ who never played? Jim Kaat turned his final game on MLB Network into an airing or grievances that the commentary of guys like him wasn’t appreciated anymore.
?
I mean, it sounds like Carew has spent much of his retirement in these "cushy" jobs, no?
 

cornwalls@6

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At what point do people who reflexively disparage anyone who criticizes analytics as "old men yelling at clouds", become the same thing themselves? I mean, this is now a 20+ year old movement in baseball. Longer if you date back to the first Bill James ideas to be embraced by a front office. Not exactly on the cutting edge anymore. It's of course not going away, but it seems silly to deny there is, at least in a few instances, a tension between what's analytically sound, and what's entertaining. Even Theo Epstein, in his role as quality control consultant for the game, has questioned whether some of the revolution he played a major part in brining about has gone too far. I would hope all avenues of how to improve the entertainment value of the game are being explored, including that tension.