Hold the Mayo? Evaluating Patriots coaching.

[Toe Nash]

They are getting more injured and their depth is being exposed. I don't think it's possible to separate that from anything else especially after 7 games. Particularly an increase in penalties taken which could be random, could be players getting fatigued, could be all kinds of things. There isn't a correlation between good coaching and fewer penalties over 7 games.

To my eyes they only played decent in the first game and were pretty bad in every other game. But the offense has done some good things since Maye came in.

Also it doesn't matter, they're not firing Mayo after 7 games or really not until the end of the year. If it makes you feel better to blame the coaching for everything go ahead I guess.

 

[54thMA]

And it's not like the shitty offensive line is just trying to hold on for dear life. They have 8 holding calls so far this season, while teams like the Ravens, Chiefs, 49ers, Packers, and Steelers all have more.

Defenders are blowing past them and wrecking running plays and putting pressure on the QB before they can reach out and grab someone, they're too inept to hold.

 

[Cellar-Door]

One of my biggest concerns about Mayo so far is....
He's learning on the job, we know that but... has he reflected any learning? It feels like he makes the same mistakes over and over. Hey you screwed up in camp and early in the year shooting from the hip and having to walk back comments.... that's not good but did you correct it? Nope, quite the opposite, you've had to do it every week. This week you called your team soft, which basically every former player covering the league (I've seen McCourty, Woody, Chris Long, Ted Johnson minimum) has said is a mistake and the one thing you almost never do publicly and are desperately backpedaling.

You've been inconsistent on what you want to do in late half situations over and over... are you being aggressive or are you running out the clock.... consistent issue of trying to split the difference and doing neither. Timeouts... you have repeatedly burned timeouts without reason... in London what happens.... you try to get a jump offside, then call a timeout? Why? A delay is 5 yards, which makes almost no difference in pinning them deep, but when you do pin them deep, if you had 3 timeouts you would have gotten the ball back with some time to get a FG, maybe you get a turnover you gained nothing, and sacrificed something.

Rookie Coaches like rookie players make mistakes, they need to learn from them. Mayo appears to repeat the same issues over and over.... that's a problem, because it seems to show a lack of awareness of a problem and/or an inability to adjust.

 

[cshea]

You've been inconsistent on what you want to do in late half situations over and over... are you being aggressive or are you running out the clock.... consistent issue of trying to split the difference and doing neither. Timeouts... you have repeatedly burned timeouts without reason... in London what happens.... you try to get a jump offside, then call a timeout? Why? A delay is 5 yards, which makes almost no difference in pinning them deep, but when you do pin them deep, if you had 3 timeouts you would have gotten the ball back with some time to get a FG, maybe you get a turnover you gained nothing, and sacrificed something.

I think you could arghue that their end of half approach has been consistent. I think it's too rigiid and my criticism is they seem to lack the game awareness in these situations. But they've handled 3 of them basically the exact same way.

Seattle- Took over with 1:37 left, 3 timeouts. Ran it for 2 yards, let the clorck run, then 2 incomplete passes.

Miami- Took over at their own 5 with 1:50 left. Ran on first down, for 8, let the clock run, then 2 incomplete passes

Houston - Pats took over at their own 16 with 59 seconds left and 2 times outs. They ran on first down, for 2 yards, let the clock run to 36 before the next snap where Pop made a big play and they went from there.

They've handed all 3 in a consistent manner. Get the clock moving with a run then take a few shots. My problem is the lack of awarness and game situation.

 

[Cellar-Door]

I think you could arghue that their end of half approach has been consistent. I think it's too rigiid and my criticism is they seem to lack the game awareness in these situations. But they've handled 3 of them basically the exact same way.

Seattle- Took over with 1:37 left, 3 timeouts. Ran it for 2 yards, let the clorck run, then 2 incomplete passes.

Miami- Took over at their own 5 with 1:50 left. Ran on first down, for 8, let the clock run, then 2 incomplete passes

Houston - Pats took over at their own 16 with 59 seconds left and 2 times outs. They ran on first down, for 2 yards, let the clock run to 36 before the next snap where Pop made a big play and they went from there.

They've handed all 3 in a consistent manner. Get the clock moving with a run then take a few shots. My problem is the lack of awarness and game situation.

I mean that's my point, they've consistently been dumb. They run then pass and give it back with enough time for the other team to do something... but the run also often means they are limiting themselves if they do complete subsequent passes. It's just not a good way to manage the clock, you're not running enough clock to prevent the other team doing anything if you go 3 and out, but are running enough clock to somewhat limit yourself if you do pick up 1sts.

That is one example, but the overall issue isn't inconsistency (except in public statements) it is in fact that they make the same mistakes time after time. It's true of defense too, they make the same types of mistakes every game. What I don't see from Mayo and his staff is any indication that they analyze their mistakes and correct them.

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

I mean that's my point, they've consistently been dumb. They run then pass and give it back with enough time for the other team to do something... but the run also often means they are limiting themselves if they do complete subsequent passes. It's just not a good way to manage the clock, you're not running enough clock to prevent the other team doing anything if you go 3 and out, but are running enough clock to somewhat limit yourself if you do pick up 1sts.

That is one example, but the overall issue isn't inconsistency (except in public statements) it is in fact that they make the same mistakes time after time. It's true of defense too, they make the same types of mistakes every game. What I don't see from Mayo and his staff is any indication that they analyze their mistakes and correct them.

Agreed with you 100%. These issues have zero to do with talent level or injuries, it's entirely coaching. And Mayo doesn't seem to get it.

 

[Kenny F'ing Powers]

Also it doesn't matter, they're not firing Mayo after 7 games or really not until the end of the year. If it makes you feel better to blame the coaching for everything go ahead I guess.

Right. That's what I said.

 

[8slim]

The Cam season was a weird one with all the COVID opt-outs, I'm not too sure much can be gleaned from it, really. But look at those two seasons in the middle.

Made the playoffs with MAC FUCKING JONES, which by itself is likely the greatest coaching achievement the league has ever seen. That alone would get any coach an immediate induction into Canton.

The next year they weren't as good as Mac was bad again but they were in a win-and-you're-in situation at 8-8 going into the last game of the year. Mac sucked and they lost.

Following this, BB apparently went to Kraft wanting to trade Mac and sign Baker Mayfield, if reports are to be believed. Kraft said no.

The following year Mac plays like the worst QB in the history of the league while the defense is largely excellent. Almost like BB knew Mac was no good. Once the season went haywire he gave Mac every single last chance to show he could play in the league and Mac failed every single test. Then lost his job to the SECOND worst QB the league has ever seen.

If Kraft had listened to BB the organization would be in a far better place today. But reports also had Kraft telling Mayo he was heir apparent five years ago....just before the Cam year.

Look I'm not totally serious that there was a palace coup. But honestly I wouldn't be surprised if there was. I can easily see Wolf and Mayo pushing hard on Kraft to get rid of the old man and they would take care of the rest.

Like I said, I would have given Bill another season. Alas, I'm not the owner.

Also, and I said this a couple days ago, I think it's McDaniels who should get the lion's share of the credit for Mac's rookie season. Mac was a functional QB for that season, and it was McDaniels who got him there IMHO.

Bill was the one who decided to turn Mac over to Matt freakin' Patricia after Josh left. That's still a huge knock against Bill.

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

Like I said, I would have given Bill another season. Alas, I'm not the owner.

Also, and I said this a couple days ago, I think it's McDaniels who should get the lion's share of the credit for Mac's rookie season. Mac was a functional QB for that season, and it was McDaniels who got him there IMHO.

Bill was the one who decided to turn Mac over to Matt freakin' Patricia after Josh left. That's still a huge knock against Bill.

And yet the offense was better with Patricia than it was under a "real" OC in BOB.

Mac got found out. No coordinator in the world could have saved him from that. The QB couldn't play and when he faced adversity he turtled.

 

[SMU_Sox]

Why do we think they are playing so much Cover-2 and 2 high shells? I can't think of an answer that makes perfect sense but maybe it is just the least bad option out of many?

 

[8slim]

It's also not wrong to point out the context of all of these supposedly terrible drafts. The tab was always going to come due for 20 years of dominance, and the subsequent bottom of the round draft picks they produced. You can only maneuver, and out run that for so long. I think he had more than earned the right to try and rebuild this team with actual, prime, draft capital. Which he never really had before. That said, for a variety of reasons, some of them petty and ego driven, Kraft wanted him gone. So be it. His shop, his rules. But he deserves every ounce of scorn that can he heaped upon him for not even conducting an outside search for a new coach, just handing it to a guy who's pretty clearly not ready for the job, and then retro-fitting the GM in after that. A half-assed, ill-conceived process all the way around.

I get the point about 1st round draft position. But beyond that? I mean, wasn't Bill famous for trading back to get better picks in later rounds? In 2023 he picked #17, #46 and #76. 2022 wasn't great, but 2021 was #15, #38 and #96. 2020 was sans 1st round pick but then we had #37, #60, #87 and #91.

I think Bill had his chance to rebuild, and he chose an odd path for it IMHO.

 

[Cellar-Door]

Why do we think they are playing so much Cover-2 and 2 high shells? I can't think of an answer that makes perfect sense but maybe it is just the least bad option out of many?

It's pretty weird, I assume the thought at least early was to limit explosive plays given the offensive limitations. But they've been pretty thoroughly figured out, and cover 2 is putting the onus on their LBs (weakest position) instead of the corners (arguably strongest). I'd like to see them pivot to cover 1 and man heavy, bring more 5 and 6 man pressures... better to give up big plays sometimes than just get ground into dust on the ground and have QBs sit in the pocket for as long as they want and devour the holes in the zone.

 

[8slim]

And yet the offense was better with Patricia than it was under a "real" OC in BOB.

Mac got found out. No coordinator in the world could have saved him from that. The QB couldn't play and when he faced adversity he turtled.

Point was simply that 2021 was largely due to McDaniels. Put him in Canton for that.

I don't know anything about the Mac/Mayfield rumor. If that's true, and Kraft squashed it, then shame on him. But how do we know it's true?

 

[cshea]

I'm not sure about the Mayfield part but there was a long form Wickersham article about the end of the dynasty that included the bit about Bill wanted to trade Mac and Kraft not allowing him to do so.

 

[8slim]

I'm not sure about the Mayfield part but there was a long form Wickersham article about the end of the dynasty that included the bit about Bill wanted to trade Mac and Kraft not allowing him to do so.

Oh, so NOW this place believes Wickersham!

I kid, I kid.

 

[Was (Not Wasdin)]

I think you could arghue that their end of half approach has been consistent. I think it's too rigiid and my criticism is they seem to lack the game awareness in these situations. But they've handled 3 of them basically the exact same way.

Seattle- Took over with 1:37 left, 3 timeouts. Ran it for 2 yards, let the clorck run, then 2 incomplete passes.

Miami- Took over at their own 5 with 1:50 left. Ran on first down, for 8, let the clock run, then 2 incomplete passes

Houston - Pats took over at their own 16 with 59 seconds left and 2 times outs. They ran on first down, for 2 yards, let the clock run to 36 before the next snap where Pop made a big play and they went from there.

They've handed all 3 in a consistent manner. Get the clock moving with a run then take a few shots. My problem is the lack of awarness and game situation.

They actually got the ball back and had to then punt again against Miami, with a few seconds left on the clock, all without making Miami burn a single timeout. Awful.

 

[Jinhocho]

It's also not wrong to point out the context of all of these supposedly terrible drafts. The tab was always going to come due for 20 years of dominance, and the subsequent bottom of the round draft picks they produced. You can only maneuver, and out run that for so long. I think he had more than earned the right to try and rebuild this team with actual, prime, draft capital. Which he never really had before. That said, for a variety of reasons, some of them petty and ego driven, Kraft wanted him gone. So be it. His shop, his rules. But he deserves every ounce of scorn that can he heaped upon him for not even conducting an outside search for a new coach, just handing it to a guy who's pretty clearly not ready for the job, and then retro-fitting the GM in after that. A half-assed, ill-conceived process all the way around.

You are my spirit animal

 

[Mystic Merlin]

Why do we think they are playing so much Cover-2 and 2 high shells? I can't think of an answer that makes perfect sense but maybe it is just the least bad option out of many?

I figured it was because they don’t have a true FS they trust. But getting routinely strangled to death in Cover-2, with Sunday’s game v JAX being rock bottom so far (they only got three real possessions in the second half), doesn’t seem like a better alternative to rolling the dice with more Cover-1. I’m with @Cellar-Door on this one.

 

[cshea]

They actually got the ball back and had to then punt again against Miami, with a few seconds left on the clock, all without making Miami burn a single timeout. Awful.

That one was a different game situation. They took over at their own 42 with 28 seconds left and 2 timeouts after Miami botched the FG. They weren't worried about the clock at that point, it was 100% try to score and the clock was working against them. They only needed 15-20 yards to give Slye a kick. It was 3rd and 5 with 13 seconds left from their 47 and they threw incomplete. They needed 7 or so yards to try a kick.

The other 3 were the ones where they were backed up with roughly 2 minutes to go. They did the same thing 3 times...run followed by 2 incomplete passes then punt....so they were consistent in how they handled it but also it showed a general lack of feel for the game, situation and priorities. It's like they get into the situation and they just go "ok, get the clock started then we go..." without considering the rest of the game situation and implications.

 

[Toe Nash]

I get the point about 1st round draft position. But beyond that? I mean, wasn't Bill famous for trading back to get better picks in later rounds? In 2023 he picked #17, #46 and #76. 2022 wasn't great, but 2021 was #15, #38 and #96. 2020 was sans 1st round pick but then we had #37, #60, #87 and #91.

I think Bill had his chance to rebuild, and he chose an odd path for it IMHO.

Belichick definitely did a weird rebuild. I would have loved to see him to do a more traditional rebuild after Brady left with 2-3 years of top ten picks, either trading down or nailing a couple core pieces - his hit rate with a top 14 or better pick is pretty great.

I wonder what was going through his head in the COVID / Cam season and the year after. Did he really think the team could be competitive? Did he really think the team was good enough the year after with Mac and the FAs? Is he just wired to do whatever he can to compete every year even if it's obvious it would be better to think more long-term? What would he have done if Mac and all the other QBs were gone by the time their pick came up?

 

[lexrageorge]

Belichick definitely did a weird rebuild. I would have loved to see him to do a more traditional rebuild after Brady left with 2-3 years of top ten picks, either trading down or nailing a couple core pieces - his hit rate with a top 14 or better pick is pretty great.

I wonder what was going through his head in the COVID / Cam season and the year after. Did he really think the team could be competitive? Did he really think the team was good enough the year after with Mac and the FAs? Is he just wired to do whatever he can to compete every year even if it's obvious it would be better to think more long-term? What would he have done if Mac and all the other QBs were gone by the time their pick came up?

There were a lot of players on that 2020 team that had been with Bill for a long time, and I think he honestly does not believe tanking is the right approach in the NFL (I tend to agree, as some teams end up tanking for 10 or more years without getting a single playoff game).

The team had no cap space and no way to free up any cap space. So Bill waited long enough for Cam to be available on the cheap. Cam was a player that the locker room could easily get behind. There was also the whole uncertainty around CoVid that would hang like a shadow for the entire season. And the Pats would have the most cap space in the league the upcoming offseason, and Bill obviously sold Kraft on the idea of being aggressive in the free agent pool.

From all the reports and video segments, I was wondering if everyone was fully bought into drafting Mac at that spot. Still, there was clearly pressure from above to get back to the playoffs ASAP.

 

[Toe Nash]

Yeah my contention would be there is a difference between tanking and changing your entire offense for one year to accommodate an older low-upside quarterback who couldn't throw with an otherwise flawed roster. And if there was ever a year to do that it was 2020 with no fans in the stands and after losing the GOAT.

As it ended up, he may as well have been tanking last year, but we've discussed this. Maybe the real issue was the FA spend and maybe the pressure from above as you point out.

 

[BillMuellerFanClub]

Not that this is indicative of anything.. but regardless of veracity this is interesting

View: https://twitter.com/kirkminshow/status/1849108764978254223


"Sources have informed me that within the next 48 hours, Jerod Mayo will be removed as head coach of the New England
@Patriots"

 

[P'tucket rhymes with...]

Not that this is indicative of anything.. but regardless of veracity this is interesting

View: https://twitter.com/kirkminshow/status/1849108764978254223


"Sources have informed me that within the next 48 hours, Jerod Mayo will be removed as head coach of the New England
@Patriots"

I'm anything but impressed by his work thus far, but frankly if he gets canned anytime during the current season it would suggest a level of dysfunction in the building well beyond anything we've imagined.

 

[8slim]

Is there any reason to believe that guy?

 

[Curt S Loew]

Is there any reason to believe that guy?

Well, he's giving you 48 hours. His source has a crystal ball. Seems legit.

 

[BillMuellerFanClub]

Is there any reason to believe that guy?

I doubt this guy has sources that are plugged in enough to know what is happening here, but to even attempt "reporting" that a move is being made seems kind of significant - even with the the most charitable definition of reporting.

 

[IdiotKicker]

If you want to make a bad coaching situation worse, fire your coach on the Friday before a Sunday game, rather than on Monday. I'm glad I didn't even listen to the clip.

 

[E5 Yaz]

I doubt this guy has sources that are plugged in enough to know what is happening here, but to even attempt "reporting" that a move is being made seems kind of significant - even with the the most charitable definition of reporting.

No, it doesn't seem "significant" at all. It's just a clown trying to draw attention to himself

 

[8slim]

I doubt this guy has sources that are plugged in enough to know what is happening here, but to even attempt "reporting" that a move is being made seems kind of significant - even with the the most charitable definition of reporting.

I'm wondering why Minihane saying this is "significant"? I mean, maybe he's surprisingly the most plugged-in media member in Boston right now. Or it could just be a guy who's seeking clicks.

Has there been anyone else who's actually plugged in who has suggested that Kraft is unhappy with Mayo?

 

[8slim]

Like, after those 10 seconds, did he mention who these "sources" are? Why Mayo would be fired 7 games into his tenure?

 

[BillMuellerFanClub]

No, it doesn't seem "significant" at all. It's just a clown trying to draw attention to himself

Think what you want, but I tend to doubt this guy is straight up fabricating things entirely. Former WEEI personality and current Barstool employee, regardless of what you believe of Barstool, making shit up seems a bit much for someone with that resume. I think it's reasonable to question it, and I'm not sold on the reporting, but the fact that the statement is made is - i think - worthy of discussion.

Or, we can let it pass and mourn the death of some digital trees. Whatever.

 

[Mystic Merlin]

Think what you want, but I tend to doubt this guy is straight up fabricating things entirely. Former WEEI personality and current Barstool employee, regardless of what you believe of Barstool, making shit up seems a bit much for someone with that resume.

Barstool? What makes you think they give a shit if he’s credible? Plus, he can always say the team changed its mind, or that his ‘sources’ backpedaled.

 

[8slim]

Think what you want, but I tend to doubt this guy is straight up fabricating things entirely. Former WEEI personality and current Barstool employee, regardless of what you believe of Barstool, making shit up seems a bit much for someone with that resume. I think it's reasonable to question it, and I'm not sold on the reporting, but the fact that the statement is made is - i think - worthy of discussion.

Or, we can let it pass and mourn the death of some digital trees. Whatever.

Thanks for sharing it. I certainly wouldn't have seen it otherwise.

 

[moondog80]

"We're going to fire him, but not until Thursday."

Nah.

 

[8slim]

"We're going to fire him, but not until Thursday."

Nah.

Well, Kraft probably needs time to get the contract with Vrabel together first.

 

[Marciano490]

Well, Kraft probably needs time to get the contract with Vrabel together first.

Kraft is spending the next 48 hours in hotel lobbies trying to identify the next great leader of men.

 

[E5 Yaz]

Kraft is spending the next 48 hours in hotel lobbies trying to identify the next great leader of men.

Hookers and blow ... some men will follow them anywhere

 

[moondog80]

Kraft is spending the next 48 hours in hotel lobbies trying to identify the next great leader of men.

To be fair, he did a pretty good job identifying coaching talent his first 3 cracks at it.

I dunno. Could be real. But I'm skeptical.

 

[NextBigThing8184]

To be fair, he did a pretty good job identifying coaching talent his first 3 cracks at it.

I dunno. Could be real. But I'm skeptical.

Kraft didn’t hire Parcells.

 

[moondog80]

Kraft didn’t hire Parcells.

Good point. I stand corrected.

 

[luckiestman]

Seems ridiculous

 

[Ed Hillel]

Seems ridiculous

…ly awesome?

Has that WEEI intern guy who told us the Heat all had covid confirmed this yet?

 

[Rusty13]

Is there any reason to believe that guy?

No. He is 100% trolling. I think he's trying to get Volin to bite on this or something, so he can then make a bit out of it.

 

[cshea]

Minihane is full of shit but FWIW Bedard did say on F&M yesterday that he doesn't think a second year for Mayo is guaranteed if things continue this way.

 

[Jettisoned]

Look I'm not totally serious that there was a palace coup. But honestly I wouldn't be surprised if there was. I can easily see Wolf and Mayo pushing hard on Kraft to get rid of the old man and they would take care of the rest.

Maybe Bill is just defending his former players against their new head coach calling them "soft" but I wonder if he'd be weighing in on the situation in the same way without some sort of betrayal from Mayo. It's hard to imagine him publicly criticizing McDaniels or Patricia like this, although BB never criticized any other head coaches while he was employed by the Patriots, so I dunno. His criticisms of Saleh after he got canned a few weeks ago seemed more gently worded than what he's had to say about Mayo, and he also went on Brady's podcast to say the same thing word for word that he said in the posted clip.

Maybe he's hoping Mayo takes his indirect advice through the media and runs with it. Mayo certainly doesn't have any legitimate complaint about it considering he's dishing out the same thing to his own players. I bet he's got 100 other things on his mind, even if he is inclined to listen to anything Bill has to say.

I'd also add that receiver drops are a dumb thing for a coach to criticize publicly. They're highly visible mistakes for which receivers already suffer intense public criticism, and they already have painful negative consequences for the player's career anyways. You can work your ass off in practice all week and stay focused all game and still drop a pass. You should not be lighting guys up in press conferences unless it's an effort problem that the public can't already see, like half-assing it in practices or not paying attention in meetings.

 

[rodderick]

Now Boutte is openly questioning the play calling. We can't go a single day without this mess, man.

View: https://twitter.com/tkyles39/status/1849123786701890034

 

[Jettisoned]

Why do we think they are playing so much Cover-2 and 2 high shells? I can't think of an answer that makes perfect sense but maybe it is just the least bad option out of many?

Genuine question, as you are one of the most knowledgable posters here: isn't every team doing more of those things?

 

[E5 Yaz]

Minihane is full of shit but FWIW Bedard did say on F&M yesterday that he doesn't think a second year for Mayo is guaranteed if things continue this way.

That, actually, doesn't seem so far-fetched. And, should the drip of player discontent continues, it could happen sooner. But mid-week? It would have to be complete chaos for that to go down

 

[Jettisoned]

A midweek, midseason firing would seem very out of character for RK. I know he's only had 2 seasons where it was even remotely a possibility, but still.